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Old 12-14-2012, 01:53 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrosby View Post
Maybe, maybe not. I can't imagine that too many people ever have conversations with family/friends about how to address their envelopes so how would they know? Bottom line is it's really not all that important in the grand scheme of life so why get so bent out of shape about it? Doing so, to me, suggests that someone is perhaps alittle too wrapped up in themselves.


But it's not considered outdated by everyone and that's the point. Many women still change their name and even embrace the idea of being thought of as "Mrs. John X". In fact many (including myself) actually despise the silly 'Ms.' designation and all the pomp and circumstance surrounding this "I am a person too" debate. Are we now supposed to call everyone before we address their envelope to determine how how they prefer to be addressed? I guess this stuff just never ceases to amaze me. Don't people have bigger fish to fry? I know I do...I don't care what you call me (well, within reason ).
to the bolded! I was proud to be my DH's wife 34 years ago and I still am today. I don't think being identified as his wife is an insult in any way!

I was taught to address envelopes back in grade school, over 40 years ago. My family & friends don't sit around talking about how we want our mail addressed. So maybe I'm old fashioned, but since I haven't taken another class in letter writing since then, I just kept doing it as I was taught. I guess if anyone I know has been offended, they've been nice enough not to complain.


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Originally Posted by pacrosby View Post
No, I hear you....and I do agree that your friends should "know your name". My name is Pam and that's what my friends should call me of course. But that's very different than knowing how to address me when sending me something in the mail. Are they just going to just write "Pam"? "Pam and Steve"? "Pam and Steve X"? "Mr and Mrs X"? "Mr and Mrs Steve X"? Mr and Mrs Pam and Steve X"? "Pam X and Steve X? Ms Pam X and Mr Steve X"? Actually I never even legally changed my name so 17 yrs later legally I'm still "Pam Y". Should they know that and write "Pam Y and Steve X"? "Ms Pam Y and Mr Steve X"? Does it ever end?????? lol

My point it that is complicated and no matter how you write it some nincompoop somewhere is going to be offended. Sadly for some it will always be a matter of what you did to/for or didn't do to/for me, me, me

ETA: the one exception I would make would be if one's friend was a staunch feminist who always made it clear that this was some sort of major issue with her as in that case it would be inconsiderate to then go against her requests. That would be the exception not the rule however and probably doesn't apply to 99% of the people who would "choose" to take issue with it.
We have actually gotten mail from a nephew & his wife addressed with first names only a few times! We think her Mom (an immigrant from about 25 years ago) did the envelopes. Once it was "Myname & Hisname" (no last name). Once it was "Aunt Myname & Uncle Hisname". (again, no last name). We thought it was an interesting way to address an envelope & were more impressed that the post office actually got it delivered correctly!



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Originally Posted by FlyingDumbo View Post
Hi all! Sorry I fell asleep last night while dis-boarding! This thread sure did take on a lot of pages while I slept. Just to be clear, this woman DID take her husbands last name when they got married, she was offended by the fact that I did not use her first name on the envelope. The funny thing is, I did not take my husband's last name, I kept mine, and I get mail addressed to Mrs Myhusbandslastname all the time. It really never occurred to me to be offended by that. I don't sweat the small stuff.

I did respond to her facebook post, this was my response:

I see you got my card! Glad to see you picked up on the fact that I was making a concerted effort to insult you. Mission accomplished! And now I know that you got the message I obviously intended, I assure you will not have to worry about how your card is addressed next year.


My comment has has 16 likes so far. She has not responded or commented.
I love your response! It amazes me what some people find to get offended by.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:57 PM   #137
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I know lots of women who didn't change their names, but none would have been offended. Certainly, none would have flipped out on facebook about it. It's funny how facebook has become a place grievances. If you really are upset by something, you should nicely talk to the person about it, rather than jumping on FB.

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Old 12-14-2012, 02:06 PM   #138
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I have been married for 17 yrs. I would rather have mail addressed to me as Mrs. my first name last name. I am my own person. If it is addresses to both of us Mr and Mrs. DH firstname last name. I don't have a problem with it.

I would never post it on FB. The only one who still does is DH grandma.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:12 PM   #139
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I never changed my last name. Mostly just cause i like it and its who I am. Also works well because we work at the same company, so it's nice that customers only know we are married if we tell them.

I get mail addressed as Mrs DH's last name. Or wedding invites as Mrs DH first name last name. No biggie to me. I often socially refer to myself with DHs last name for my daughter's things like preschool or Sunday School stuff; she of course has his last name, so just for continuity, I use it to.

Interestingly, his parents send mail using my last name for me. My mom sends mail and uses his last name for me. Lol. I get a chuckle out of her passive resistance to my refusal to change my name. I don't mind either way. I am me no matter what people call me.

ETA- my husband has been referred to with my last name. He doesn't care, either. OP, that was do incredibly rude and immature if the card recipient.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:59 PM   #140
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Must be nice not to have anything else in life to worry about besides how a Christmas card is addressed! And to put it on Facebook knowing that you would see it is classless!!! I hope, in light of today's events in CT, that she counts her blessings and realizes just how ridiculous she is being!!!

OP your response was great! Good for you! I'm guessing she is no longer your facebook friend??
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:22 PM   #141
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I'm going to step off topic for just a moment, because something is really bothering me in this thread. Those of us to dislike the practice of being addressed as "Mrs. John Smith" have been casually called "silly" or had a friendly eye roll smily posted in our general direction by a few posters.

While, as I said, I would never humiliate someone on Facebook over a kind gesture, I do not think taking a stand on the language used or caring about it is silly. Words matter. Just ask the people who want to end the use of the word "retard."

Patriarchal naming traditions are sexist. Why should women to be the ones in a marriage to give up their identity and name? Why should women bear the burden of changing their name on all of their legal documents and records? Why should women be compelled to publicly discolose their marital status by means of their title? Why is the family history of the woman, "carrying on the line" less important?

Perhaps the most important evidence that this tradition is not as innocent as it seems to be is to ask men to take a their wife's last name. This option is often viewed with derision and outright contempt. Why? If it truly doesn't matter anymore, if there is no power imbalance, why does it matter whose last name a family uses? Why would men be upset to be called "Mr. Jane HerName?"

My opinion is that if a man is unwilling to take his wife's last name, if he feels it makes him "less if a man" (less of a person), if he feels it would demean him or belittle him, then expecting a woman to take his name means all those same issues apply. It's subtle in a way, not often thought about or dismissed as "silly" as was done here. But it points towards a definite bias, a subtle misogyny the puts women in a postion of being the ones who are "less of a person."

Anyway, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just wanted to give a voice to the reason of why I care. This is why it bothers me and why I feel it is a topic worthy of consideration and not just one to be dismissed.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:25 PM   #142
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I'm kind of fascinated by the 'I'm my own person with my own identity, address me as Mrs. Myfirstname Hislastname!' thing, especially from that person crash knows on fb.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:01 PM   #143
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There are a lot of people in this world who make an effort to be offended and you will never please them all. I kept my last name when I got married and I get all kinds of oddly addressed mail. I think some people are making this into a big sexist feminist take a stand type of issue when in fact it was just an envelope. With a card in it. I do think all the fuss is a bit silly. That does not mean I think the issue of how people PREFER to be addressed is silly. This issue has nothing to do with "identity" or how one prefers to be addressed. It has to do with courtesy. Should the op have known the preference of the person they were sending a card to? Probably. Will the world end if one envelope is addressed this way? Probably not. A little courtesy on both sides would have helped. Don't sweat the small stuff! And to post it on Facebook is absurd really.


I also feel obligated to mention I have the opposite problem of the offended party here, I often rip open all the mail with no regard to how it is addressed and have had to shuffle over to my neighbor in shame and apologize for opening their mail by accident. If looks like it says anything close to my name, or sometimes nothing like it, I might just have at it.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:05 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joviroxx View Post
Do they not wear wedding rings? I don't know, but most (yes not all) married people wear rings which screams.. IM MARRIED!
Like you said, not all people do wear wedding rings. I know a couple of married people who don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJayne View Post
Is it supposed to be a secret you're married?
It's just nice to have the option to keep such information private (as men do). The marital status of a woman is really nobodies business unless she wishes to make it so. One way to retain ownership of that decision is to use a neutral title. I was really only objecting to the 'silly' comment though. I don't think any less of women who use the 'Miss' or 'Mrs' title, or women who take their partner's name, but several women I have met have responded to me with some hostility when finding out I didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ember
I'm going to step off topic for just a moment, because something is really bothering me in this thread. Those of us to dislike the practice of being addressed as "Mrs. John Smith" have been casually called "silly" or had a friendly eye roll smily posted in our general direction by a few posters.

While, as I said, I would never humiliate someone on Facebook over a kind gesture, I do not think taking a stand on the language used or caring about it is silly. Words matter. Just ask the people who want to end the use of the word "retard."

Patriarchal naming traditions are sexist. Why should women to be the ones in a marriage to give up their identity and name? Why should women bear the burden of changing their name on all of their legal documents and records? Why should women be compelled to publicly discolose their marital status by means of their title? Why is the family history of the woman, "carrying on the line" less important?

Perhaps the most important evidence that this tradition is not as innocent as it seems to be is to ask men to take a their wife's last name. This option is often viewed with derision and outright contempt. Why? If it truly doesn't matter anymore, if there is no power imbalance, why does it matter whose last name a family uses? Why would men be upset to be called "Mr. Jane HerName?"

My opinion is that if a man is unwilling to take his wife's last name, if he feels it makes him "less if a man" (less of a person), if he feels it would demean him or belittle him, then expecting a woman to take his name means all those same issues apply. It's subtle in a way, not often thought about or dismissed as "silly" as was done here. But it points towards a definite bias, a subtle misogyny the puts women in a postion of being the ones who are "less of a person."

Anyway, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just wanted to give a voice to the reason of why I care. This is why it bothers me and why I feel it is a topic worthy of consideration and not just one to be dismissed.
Agreed
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:21 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by epcot.girl View Post
Like you said, not all people do wear wedding rings. I know a couple of married people who don't.

:
Just seems odd to me that someone would get married, I guess in a secret ceremony, not wear a ring, use their birth name and want to keep it quiet like its some secret. I'll take your word for it that some women want that right but I still think it's rather odd and don't get the point of it.

If they have kids, do they keep that quiet too? Really, I don't mean to sound combative, I just don't get the logic or reasoning.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:09 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joviroxx View Post
Just seems odd to me that someone would get married, I guess in a secret ceremony, not wear a ring, use their birth name and want to keep it quiet like its some secret. I'll take your word for it that some women want that right but I still think it's rather odd and don't get the point of it.

If they have kids, do they keep that quiet too? Really, I don't mean to sound combative, I just don't get the logic or reasoning.
You've extrapolated a heck of a lot from what I said. I never said anything about keeping things secret. Wanting to have the same option as men in terms of having a title that doesn't automatically tell the world your marital status =/= keeping it a secret. It's not about secrecy, it's about having the option of privacy. My marriage has nothing to do with anyone else. Likewise, my marital status is nobodies business. I prefer not to automatically give someone my marital status if they need to know my title for some reason (and I have been using 'Ms' for many years now, long before getting married).

I really don't see what's so strange about people just wanting to get married because they love each other and want legal protections and such in place. Not everyone wears jewellery. Not everyone wants to change their name. Not everyone even plans to have kids. There is nothing wrong with any of this, and it has nothing to do with keeping things secret.

No one is accusing men of secrecy because they don't automatically change their title to a marriage-specific title after the wedding, but if a married woman wants similarly neutral title she gets questioned and her behaviour is considered odd and secretive.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:22 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epcot.girl

You've extrapolated a heck of a lot from what I said. I never said anything about keeping things secret. Wanting to have the same option as men in terms of having a title that doesn't automatically tell the world your marital status =/= keeping it a secret. It's not about secrecy, it's about having the option of privacy. My marriage has nothing to do with anyone else. Likewise, my marital status is nobodies business. I prefer not to automatically give someone my marital status if they need to know my title for some reason (and I have been using 'Ms' for many years now, long before getting married).

I really don't see what's so strange about people just wanting to get married because they love each other and want legal protections and such in place. Not everyone wears jewellery. Not everyone wants to change their name. Not everyone even plans to have kids. There is nothing wrong with any of this, and it has nothing to do with keeping things secret.

No one is accusing men of secrecy because they don't automatically change their title to a marriage-specific title after the wedding, but if a married woman wants similarly neutral title she gets questioned and her behaviour is considered odd and secretive.
All excellent points.

Really, what does someone else's marriage status have to do with anyone else anyway? My husband and I work together, quite closely, actually. We have customers in several times a month. I chat about "my husband this" or "my husband that" in regards to my personal life. I often don't tell them "my husband" is the guy sitting at the computer writing the code I'm helping them test! It doesn't matter to them. Sometimes we do tell, sometimes we don't. It's our choice because I kept my "maiden" name.

It doesn't mean it's a secret. Our friends and family know we are married. But why do strangers have to know? It's the same way with rings, titles, and name changes. If a woman chooses not to change her name, so? If someone doesn't wear a ring and advertise their marital status, so? As long as they aren't trying to actively trick people for their own benefit (say, trying to pick up a guy), then so what? And I would venture to say that those trying to do ill are going to lie about their name or remove their ring anyway.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:28 PM   #148
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this may be off subject but i'll ask anyway. If you don't want to adopt your husband's last name do you idea of combining your names and both of you adopting the new name? I read that a lot of couples in England have been doing this.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:52 PM   #149
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this may be off subject but i'll ask anyway. If you don't want to adopt your husband's last name do you idea of combining your names and both of you adopting the new name? I read that a lot of couples in England have been doing this.
People do this here in the US too. It was a free option 20 some odd years ago on my NY State marriage license.

The problem as I see it is that neither party here is being thoughtful. The OP who sent the card didn't think for a moment how her archaic naming convention would be received and the recipient was even ruder by posting it on facebook instead of privately contacting the OP and informing her of her preferred method of address for future reference.

Overall, I agree with Embers post as well. Those posters calling us "silly" for our preferences are a bit rude too. Lots of rudeness to go around here. Etiquette rules are supposed to prevent this type of problem, but with the world changing as quickly as it does nowadays, I think the best etiquette is just to try to be thoughtful of other people.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:59 PM   #150
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People do this here in the US too. It was a free option 20 some odd years ago on my NY State marriage license.

The problem as I see it is that neither party here is being thoughtful. The OP who sent the card didn't think for a moment how her archaic naming convention would be received and the recipient was even ruder by posting it on facebook instead of privately contacting the OP and informing her of her preferred method of address for future reference.

Overall, I agree with Embers post as well. Those posters calling us "silly" for our preferences are a bit rude too. Lot's of rudeness to go around here. Etiquette rules are supposed to prevent this type of problem, but with the world changing as quickly as it does nowadays, I think the best etiquette is just to try to be thoughtful of other people.
Ditto that those things have been going on here for decades.

Joaquin Phoenix's parents made up the name Phoenix when they got married, it was neither of their names. I know someone married like 25 or more years who they made a mashup of their names (not a hers his or hyphenate, like Jones and Smith became Smones), etc. Those people tend to be into the 'everyone in the family should have one name' thing. Most everyone I know just leaves their own names alone and hyphenates or flips for the kids'.
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