DVC RESALES
DVC RESALES

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Old 12-15-2012, 11:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
I disagree, I think there is something wrong with it. Disney owns and operates a great many hotels, if they wanted to expand that business and make continuing revenues on the use of new facilities, they should have built out more hotel rooms for cash reservations. Instead, they chose to build and sell timeshares. This is a different business model. You get all your money up front, and in exchange you don't take in more revenue (other than annual fees) in the future. This is a business decision, and Disney made it consciously because they know how to run hotels and they could have just kept doing that. They sold the timeshares, so yes, I think there is something wrong with then adding restrictions after the fact that destroy resale value. It is wonderful for you that you never plan to sell. Neither do I. But maybe the widow I bought my resale contract from never planned to sell either. Sometimes it happens. If Disney adds these restrictions, they are inarguably taking away value from owners, even those who never realize it.

And I don't really give a hoot that other timeshare companies do this. That doesn't make it right, it just shows why the timeshare industry is viewed with such general scorn and distrust. But Disney isn't a timeshare company. They bring in $42 billion in revenue on an annual basis across a large number of businesses. You might argue that a predominantly timeshare company needs to bleed every drop of revenue they can, even if it means screwing their owners. As long as they get that signature and the money, they don't really care. After all, people already don't trust timeshares. Disney has reason to care. DVD is a wholly-owned subsidiary and a minor part of their revenue (I don't know the exact number, but their entire business unit makes about $12 billion and that includes ALL resort and park revenue, so DVD revenue is well below that figure). Disney has an extraordinarily valuable brand to protect that goes WAY beyond their timeshares. So 1) they don't need to pull customer-hostile stunts like other timeshares because it is a small part of their revenue and 2) they don't want to risk their brand over this kind of thing. DVC gets people to the resorts, where they spend a ton of money that mostly goes to Disney.

I don't pretend to know what Disney is going to do, I just don't think it would be wise for them to put severe restrictions on resale (or ban renting points, another suggestion that I often see promoted and defended here). Disney has a different business than any other timeshare company.
If you take the stance that Disney can't reward those they make the most money off of by offering options not available to everyone and extend that to other companies, there really are very few companies you can deal with. Many resorts offer discounts to one group over others and VIP type programs are all over the place including essentially all dept stores, airlines and most restaurants. I'd assume you have a problem then with Disney offering discounts to pass members or those from certain states or companies including perks to DVC members not available to others. IMO, using the terms right or ethical or fair in the same paragraph as timeshare is the definition of oxymoron. Anyone who can't stomach the "inequalities" in timeshares, including DVC, likely shouldn't participate at all. Those other timeshares you don't care about sell retail for tens of thousands of dollars that one can buy resale for pennies on the dollar. Some of them are publicly traded companies and do quite well.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:33 AM   #32
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If you take the stance that Disney can't reward those they make the most money off of by offering options not available to everyone and extend that to other companies, there really are very few companies you can deal with.
I never said that. I stand by the things I actually did say.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:26 PM   #33
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I've been monitoring this closely as I'm currently awaiting my first contract to come through in the used market. The rumors that resale inventories will be restricted to the resort at which they purchased appears to be false, or at least that is what I gathered after watching the tweets from dvcnews. Good news for us in the used market!

Hopefully this was all a marketing ploy to get new resales and that this won't ever happen, which would totally hose the initial investment from those who bought direct through Disney and plan on reselling some day.
I bought direct . I don't look at it that way . I would love to see more restrictions on resale . I am not worried about the price when I sell . I am more concerned with the price PP direct getting driven up because people buying resale .
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:09 PM   #34
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You are welcome to disagree and I am not attempting to sway your opinion. You do make valid points based on Disney being Disney. That's why my only developer timeshare purchase was Disney. You may not give a hoot about other timeshare models but surely dvc, maybe not Disney, is looking at those models. I expect future changes to their model. It's truly the only constant in the industry whether we want them or agree with them. If dvc does make changes, what are we going to do, boycott, sell or learn to utilize the new system to our best advantage? Some will have a better advantage and I agree with that except for a tier system that hurts direct purchasers. Buying has it's costs, some are known and some are not. The resale has a tremendous value in cost acquisition but could limit use. Again, we don't have to agree with it but it is important to understand it when making a decision to buy. I recommend that any buyer spend time here and on TUG so that they understand the good, bad and ugly of timeshares. I've been on both since around 97 when I first got Internet. Maybe you are right, and I hope so, that Disney will trump dvc but I doubt it, I've seen too much over the years. Timeshares are sleezy, dvc put a mouse and theme parks on theirs and for the most part delivered delivered a quality product.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:38 PM   #35
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I bought direct . I don't look at it that way . I would love to see more restrictions on resale . I am not worried about the price when I sell . I am more concerned with the price PP direct getting driven up because people buying resale .
You should be worried about the resale price. Say you purchase 200 points at $150 a point for $35000 and 5 years later your either not using them anymore or for some financial reason you want to sell and due to increased restrictions DVC turns out to be like every oter timeshare where you can purchase it on eBay for a $1 your now out all your initial investment and depending on how often you used it you probably paid twice what you could have just renting rooms for cash,

Now you purchase the same amount of shares for $150 and 5 years later with no additional restrictions you can sell for $75 a point. You have recouped 1/2 your initial investment and still enjoyed the resorts and a reasonable overall cost.

Resale restrictions hurt everyone ... And If you think being able to book a cruise on points is a good use of points you should seriously look into your overall cost of that cruise using points. It sometime costs you double what it would paying cash or just renting the points and then using the cash to pay for the cruise.

Don't get me wrong I love dvc but I am amazed how people book overpriced member cruises using point when it's costs them double to triple the usual rate just to get a $10 gift in their room. And Disney calls that a benefit of purchasing direct...
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:02 PM   #36
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I never said that. I stand by the things I actually did say.
If I understood correctly you said there was something wrong with them rewarding retail buyers and downgrading resale buyers. I simply took the principle and expanded it across a larger slice of life. If it's wrong in this instance, it's wrong in all the example I alluded to and many more and for the same reasons.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:08 PM   #37
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No matter what restrictions DVC puts in place, as long as staying at your home resort is a better deal than booking onsite with cash, those restrictions are not going to stop people from buying resale.

If we accept that most direct buyers do so while on vacation and are not well informed about what they are buying (don't mean to insult anyone that does buy direct) then Disney needs to convince more of those people to buy while they are at the sales pitch. What's the best way to do this? Extra benefits, VIP tiers, etc? I have no idea. A simple tactic would be to offer benefits that would be hard to put a cost to.

There isn't anything they could offer that would convince me to buy direct given how cheap resale costs are. And if resale prices collapsed I'd be tempted to buy even more points. I want my points to use just at Disney, but maybe I'm not the type of person DVC should be trying to sell to.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:14 PM   #38
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There isn't anything they could offer that would convince me to buy direct given how cheap resale costs are. And if resale prices collapsed I'd be tempted to buy even more points. I want my points to use just at Disney, but maybe I'm not the type of person DVC should be trying to sell to.
While I doubt they will offer enough to matter, it is my opinion that there is a level of benefit that would get everyone to consider buying retail if they could afford it and valued DVC.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:23 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by DougEMG
No matter what restrictions DVC puts in place, as long as staying at your home resort is a better deal than booking onsite with cash, those restrictions are not going to stop people from buying resale.

If we accept that most direct buyers do so while on vacation and are not well informed about what they are buying (don't mean to insult anyone that does buy direct) then Disney needs to convince more of those people to buy while they are at the sales pitch. What's the best way to do this? Extra benefits, VIP tiers, etc? I have no idea. A simple tactic would be to offer benefits that would be hard to put a cost to.

There isn't anything they could offer that would convince me to buy direct given how cheap resale costs are. And if resale prices collapsed I'd be tempted to buy even more points. I want my points to use just at Disney, but maybe I'm not the type of person DVC should be trying to sell to.
As I've said before, I don't accept that Disney needs to worry about the resale market at all. Until someone can at least show some ballpark calculations and numbers with facts and reasonable assumptions, it is all just conjecture. I do not at all blame direct buyers who want more benefits because they paid more for essentially the same thing. But that doesn't mean I agree that is deserved.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dean
If I understood correctly you said there was something wrong with them rewarding retail buyers and downgrading resale buyers. I simply took the principle and expanded it across a larger slice of life. If it's wrong in this instance, it's wrong in all the example I alluded to and many more and for the same reasons.
Retroactively decimating resale value for both direct and resale purchasers is a customer-hostile move. I don't think it is necessary to extrapolate that to larger slices of life to understand or discuss it. I just don't accept it as OK or necessary. If they want to start adding value to direct purchasers, that would be a smarter and customer-rewarding move. Again, I'm not sure they need to do this at all either. But if they are suffering and need to promote sales at their prices, adding value is a better way to go.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:56 AM   #41
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As I've said before, I don't accept that Disney needs to worry about the resale market at all. Until someone can at least show some ballpark calculations and numbers with facts and reasonable assumptions, it is all just conjecture. I do not at all blame direct buyers who want more benefits because they paid more for essentially the same thing. But that doesn't mean I agree that is deserved.
You should talk to DVC upper management on this subject. You want us to prove to you with figures that no one else is going to have and you want to discount what has already happened, what the guides are telling some that tour and what other timeshares have done. I've come to the conclusion that you will never be happy in timesharing, that the first change you see as negative you to will likely put you in jilted lover mode. Go back and look at the 2 large reallocation threads and the large valet parking thread, this might give you some insight.

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Retroactively decimating resale value for both direct and resale purchasers is a customer-hostile move. I don't think it is necessary to extrapolate that to larger slices of life to understand or discuss it. I just don't accept it as OK or necessary. If they want to start adding value to direct purchasers, that would be a smarter and customer-rewarding move. Again, I'm not sure they need to do this at all either. But if they are suffering and need to promote sales at their prices, adding value is a better way to go.
We disagree on both points but that's OK. I doubt they have to do anything but the idea that they somehow have a responsibility to protect resale prices is simply incorrect. If you read the POS, it specifically states that one should not buy with the idea of selling or renting and that if you do, you'd be in direct competition with DVC. Not only does DVD not want you to sell for a good price, they don't want you to be able to sell at all. It's not that they want to hurt the member, they just want every sale and no, I don't have access to their internal memos.

DVD is the sales arm and they are totally separate and somewhat unrelated to DVC or DVCMC. They have different agenda's. Actually there likely aren't enough things they could do to add to retail that would serve their purposes so by default, they'll have to take away from resale members. This is a principle in timesharing, one that I don't think there's anyway to get around, that the sales arm is in competition, not partnership, with the members. I think you can expect further changes in the future and they will certainly be negative to most members. If this issue is a deal breaker to you, and it seems it is by the tone of your posts, you shouldn't participate.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:43 AM   #42
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You should talk to DVC upper management on this subject. You want us to prove to you with figures that no one else is going to have and you want to discount what has already happened, what the guides are telling some that tour and what other timeshares have done. I've come to the conclusion that you will never be happy in timesharing, that the first change you see as negative you to will likely put you in jilted lover mode.
When people make assertions of fact that require evidence, I'd like to see the evidence and reasoning before accepting it as fact or understanding that it is just conjecture. That's all. Does that seem unreasonable?

Perhaps I will be like the jilted lover. But maybe that is better than being the abused spouse who has taken so many beatings that she blames herself and finds a never-end list of rationalizations to justify her abuser's actions.

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We disagree on both points but that's OK. I doubt they have to do anything but the idea that they somehow have a responsibility to protect resale prices is simply incorrect.
I've specifically said I don't believe they have a responsibility to protect resale prices. Just like someone who punches you in the face doesn't have a responsibility to be your bodyguard.

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DVD is the sales arm and they are totally separate and somewhat unrelated to DVC or DVCMC. They have different agenda's. Actually there likely aren't enough things they could do to add to retail that would serve their purposes so by default, they'll have to take away from resale members. This is a principle in timesharing, one that I don't think there's anyway to get around, that the sales arm is in competition, not partnership, with the members.
I don't dispute that, but different units and CERTAINLY different business functions of the same company or unit do not act independently. At least not in decently-run businesses.

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I think you can expect further changes in the future and they will certainly be negative to most members. If this issue is a deal breaker to you, and it seems it is by the tone of your posts, you shouldn't participate.
Honestly, Dean, I don't know why you are making this personal. I value your knowledge and experience with timeshares, but I didn't ask for or want your advice on whether I should participate or not (I already own at SSR, as I have made clear many times here).
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:56 AM   #43
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Retroactively decimating resale value for both direct and resale purchasers is a customer-hostile move. I don't think it is necessary to extrapolate that to larger slices of life to understand or discuss it. I just don't accept it as OK or necessary. If they want to start adding value to direct purchasers, that would be a smarter and customer-rewarding move. Again, I'm not sure they need to do this at all either. But if they are suffering and need to promote sales at their prices, adding value is a better way to go.
The problem with chastising DVC for decimating anything is that the language is clearly stated in the POS that they have every right to do so and we all agreed to that when we purchased.

The language states that purchase should NOT be made with an expectation of ownwership being an investment, that rental activity and selling a contract would be in competition with DVC, that all sales are required to go thru ROFR and that all aspects of the DVC programs may be modified without consulation with or approval of the members.

Over the years many aspects have been changed - point charts for DVC Resorts (and all other options), RCI/II/RCI as World Passport partner, adding reservation fees for some programs, resorts (and point requirements) available in the Concierge Collection, banking deadlines, Borrowing restrictions (originally one per years, modifed to allow multiple transfers, returned to once per year), pool hopping restrictions on new resorts, Holiday Priority list for reservations during the last week of the year, instituting program limitations for resale purchases made after March, 2011, reducing the Home Resort reservation period from the current 7 months to one month, adding a minimum stay requirement (currently 1 night), etc. .

Can DVC/DVD restrict the ability for members to rent reservations? - I don't believe so based on the POS but they could certainly place restrictions on name changes once a reservation has been made (making any changes only after canceling and rebooking based on availability), have charges for such changes, and many other possible modifications to current policy. These could be added only for resale purchasers and continue to be available at no charge for direct purchasers.

Calling this "Retroactive Decimation" is bit of a stretch when the ability to do so has been available in POS documents since the beginning of DVC and updated by DVC on a regular basis over time. The only decimating affect I see from from such changes might be to potential resale purchasers if they have a desire to use points for cruises and non-DVC resorts. For savvy resale purchasers, this should not present much of an obstacle (if any), but the vast majority of first-time purchasers are likely impressed of those perceived "advantages" if they are even aware of the resale market.

There is an option (also in the POS) available to owners at each resort where we can replace DVCMC as the managing entity for our resort. Many of the issues that are "Retroactively decimating" resale value could be reversed. The ability to make this change is explained in the POS and would allow the new management (either made up of owners of the resort or by another management entity) to make whatever rules they wish regarding these external programs. The end-date of the present resorts could not be changed (except by negotiation with Disney) but the ability to exchange and even the available exchanges could be modified in any way desired. The new management would need to negotiate for all resort services - front desk, maintenance, housekeeping, textile servies, landscaping, transportation (bus, boat, monorail), security, recreation, Disney Collection, Concierge Collection, World Passport, etc., etc., etc. Any resort where owners decide to make such a change would then no longer be included in the Disney Vacation Club and would not have access to any DVC Rresorts unless they were able to negotiate such an exchange. All existing programs and perks (PAP, Member Cruise, Recreation, dining/merchandise discounts, etc.) would all need to be negotiated by the management of the resort(s) eliminating DVC as their management entity. I can imagine those negotiations could be quite a challenge.

There are certainly options to allowing DVC to "decimate" resale value.

Be careful what you ask for.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:22 AM   #44
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When people make assertions of fact that require evidence, I'd like to see the evidence and reasoning before accepting it as fact or understanding that it is just conjecture. That's all. Does that seem unreasonable?
In this situation it is because it's not going to be available in a format to satisfy you. Honestly, the evidence it there, it just has to be extrapolated and put together. There is not going to be a formal report FROM DVD that's going to spell this out, it seems that's all that would satisfy you.

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Perhaps I will be like the jilted lover. But maybe that is better than being the abused spouse who has taken so many beatings that she blames herself and finds a never-end list of rationalizations to justify her abuser's actions.
Actually I'd put both of those analogies on the same side. Based on your posts it seems you'd be setting yourself up for heartache to cont with DVC. Timesharing is risk without control and with precious little protection.



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I've specifically said I don't believe they have a responsibility to protect resale prices. Just like someone who punches you in the face doesn't have a responsibility to be your bodyguard.
Bad analogy. Maybe a better one would be your interest rate on a credit card. They can change it almost at will.



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I don't dispute that, but different units and CERTAINLY different business functions of the same company or unit do not act independently. At least not in decently-run businesses.
Actually they do, this happens all the time in business. For Disney, you have a number if independently run businesses and they often have competing agenda's. If you can't get over the total separation and conflicting agenda's of DVD and DVC/DVCMC, you prove my point that you don't seem to be a person who's going to be happy with owning a timeshare.



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Honestly, Dean, I don't know why you are making this personal. I value your knowledge and experience with timeshares, but I didn't ask for or want your advice on whether I should participate or not (I already own at SSR, as I have made clear many times here).
I apologize if it came across as personal, that isn't my intent. All I can respond to is what you post. Did you understand these issues when you bought in? Did you buy retail without understanding timeshares? Even worse, did you buy resale without understanding these issues?

I'm sure they are going to prove this issue with their actions, not paperwork.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:59 AM   #45
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In this situation it is because it's not going to be available in a format to satisfy you. Honestly, the evidence it there, it just has to be extrapolated and put together. There is not going to be a formal report FROM DVD that's going to spell this out, it seems that's all that would satisfy you.
If the evidence is there, then great. But in the cases I'm talking about, it hasn't been provided. I'm not blaming someone if it isn't available. I charitably assume that when someone makes an assertion they understand what is required to support it and that they have that evidence or can point to what it is, at least. I do get suspicious, however, when someone gets testy and defensive about an honest question regarding support for their assertion.

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Bad analogy.
No, let me spell out the point. Just because I don't want someone to purposely do me harm doesn't mean I have an expectation that they will actively protect me from harm. When I express dismay that some suggest DVC would purposely set out to destroy resale value, you instead argue that I am claiming they need to protect resale value. They are not the same thing.

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Actually they do, this happens all the time in business. For Disney, you have a number if independently run businesses and they often have competing agenda's. If you can't get over the total separation and conflicting agenda's of DVD and DVC/DVCMC, you prove my point that you don't seem to be a person who's going to be happy with owning a timeshare.
What I'm not going to be able to get over is an understanding of and experience with corporate strategy and organizational management. I continue to wonder why you must make this personal about me. Can't we just discuss the issues at hand with civility?

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I apologize if it came across as personal, that isn't my intent. All I can respond to is what you post. Did you understand these issues when you bought in? Did you buy retail without understanding timeshares? Even worse, did you buy resale without understanding these issues?
As I've said repeatedly (and you among others disagree, which is fine), I believe DVC is different from other timeshares. I've attended other timeshare and vacation club presentations and offers, and I would never buy into them. Ever. I have no respect for high-pressure sales tactics, and I am generally skeptical of what I regard as a relatively slimy and sleezy industry. So it is no small deal that I bought into DVC. It is not that I need to read more on TUG or that I don't believe you that the timeshare industry does these many things that earn the industry its poor reputation. I trust that you are correct about all of that. It is that I believe, rightly or wrongly, that Disney (which owns DVD and manages it as part of their company and corporate strategy) will be different because Disney has a far, far greater end than just selling timeshares. If that were their only business, or its businesses were not integrated toward a coordinated end, then I would agree that they would likely follow all the same tactics and I would never buy in. But they are different in this way, and that is why I don't think they will follow all the same practices.
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