DVC RESALES
DVC RESALES

Go Back   The DIS Discussion Forums - DISboards.com > Disney Vacation Club > DVC-Mousecellaneous
facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS UpdatesDIS email updates
Register Chat FAQ Tickers Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read





Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-11-2012, 06:54 PM   #31
bighoo93
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 367

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalee94 View Post
other timeshare companies do it. i think you are overestimating the real outcry if changes happen.

the change in 2011 wasn't a big issue in itself - there was no loss of value IMO (and i was interested in dean's comments about DVC trying to limit cruise,etc. trades due to the high cost of the program itself rather than purely to discourage resales).

but as the quote below shows, if you expect a continuing "disney difference" in the way DVC owners are treated on the way out...i think that's optimistic.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...rs-time-shares
Thanks for posting that article, it was interesting. I don't quite take that quote to mean that Disney won't be different, but I can see where you are coming from. Disney doesn't seem to be admitting that they are doing this to boost resales, but rather claiming that they are responding to the demands of those who purchased resale and think they therefore deserve more benefits than those who bought resale. This is shrewd on their part.

I agree with the analysts who say that has nothing to do with it, but it does allow Disney to make what should be a transparently self-interested move and act as though it is responding to their customers. There is quite clearly a significant sentiment among direct purchasers that they deserve to have more benefits because they paid more. Since direct purchasers, from what I have read here, greatly outnumber secondary market purchasers, taking that side is certainly not going to hurt Disney. Unless the changes crush resale value and direct purchasers realize that includes their as well. I would have more confidence in Disney/DVD management if they take the smarter approach and add value to direct purchasers, rather than take it away from secondary market purchasers. We'll just have to wait and see.
bighoo93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 07:03 PM   #32
bighoo93
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 367

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
It's all true other than the issue that they can make much money on ROFR, they really can't make much for most situations.
Can you direct me to the data you have to support this? I think if I could find this sort of fundamental information about DVD it would settle a lot of my questions. But so far, I haven't found it and nobody has been able to show me anything significant.

It is a bit surprising that they can't turn much of a profit by reselling ROFR'd points. Lets say that instead of passing on my 250 point contract for $52 last month, I had bid $50 and they had stopped it. Then a year later, they sell those SSR points to someone who goes on their tour. Straight off the top, they take an extra $60 per point (selling for $110). But they have to pay a year of maintenance fees (~$5/point), plus some closing costs (~$5 per point). That drops them down to a mere $50/point of profit. What other direct expenses are there eating away at this? Maybe they aren't quite making 100% profit, but I'm not sure what the other direct, variable costs associated with this would be. Like I said, seeing the numbers would answer most of my questions.
bighoo93 is offline   Reply With Quote
|
The DIS
Register to remove

Join Date: 1997
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,000,000
Old 12-11-2012, 07:13 PM   #33
js
Good things come to those who wait
Joyful Mommy, WISHer, cruiser
Wants to see Tinkerbell fly!
 
js's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,434

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missyrose View Post
And for the record, there's no guarantee they grandfather in previous resale contracts. They did it once, but that doesn't mean they'll do it again.
But the ones that were already grandfathered (resale purchased in 2009), would still be grandfathered, is that correct?
Thanks.
js is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 07:41 PM   #34
disneynutz


Earning My Ears One At A Time
 
disneynutz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North Texas
Posts: 18,344

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
Can you direct me to the data you have to support this? I think if I could find this sort of fundamental information about DVD it would settle a lot of my questions. But so far, I haven't found it and nobody has been able to show me anything significant.

It is a bit surprising that they can't turn much of a profit by reselling ROFR'd points. Lets say that instead of passing on my 250 point contract for $52 last month, I had bid $50 and they had stopped it. Then a year later, they sell those SSR points to someone who goes on their tour. Straight off the top, they take an extra $60 per point (selling for $110). But they have to pay a year of maintenance fees (~$5/point), plus some closing costs (~$5 per point). That drops them down to a mere $50/point of profit. What other direct expenses are there eating away at this? Maybe they aren't quite making 100% profit, but I'm not sure what the other direct, variable costs associated with this would be. Like I said, seeing the numbers would answer most of my questions.
I think that their actions pretty much paint the picture. The money is to be made selling new resorts. Disney's Guides don't even mention to prospective buyers that other resorts are available, just like they only offer one UY. Disney has a reason for everything, we will never know what goes on behind the curtain.

If they have enough demand for a older resort they will ROFR but we don't know how many rooms they keep at each resort for cash guests and VIP's. We also don't know what their plans are for OKW and why they seem to be exercising ROFR there other than they can buy the shorter term points and magically convert them to the longer term points. We also don't know which contracts get turned over to Fidelity for sale and what that arraignment is all about.

Bill
__________________

disneynutz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 07:49 PM   #35
bighoo93
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 367

Quote:
Originally Posted by disneynutz

I think that their actions pretty much paint the picture. The money is to be made selling new resorts. Disney's Guides don't even mention to prospective buyers that other resorts are available, just like they only offer one UY.

Bill
In September, the guide offered us any resort and any use year and any point amount. He recommended OKW, in fact.
bighoo93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 08:13 PM   #36
spruce
DIS Veteran
 
spruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 720

I think it is very smart to buy resale, every timeshare I ever bought was a resale except for my dvc contracts. I didn't buy Marriott because they denied points to resale owners, I guess there are more restrictions now. I remember the South African boon for strong traders within RCI. Every system figures out a way to crush the advantages of resales, I wouldn't expect dvc to be any different as long as they continue to build and add new resorts. Usually when you sell a timeshare, you lose money but the value is in the vacations you took compared to owning a real vacation home. Timeshares are really long term values as opposed to get in and get out..... Dvc resold well for a while but eventually (now) they don't and I don't ever expect that to rebound. Now, if my direct purchase is given a premium (perks or whatever) that resales don't get, I welcome that as I've seen that before in other systems. The way I see it, I'm money ahead buying direct between $62 and $75 between 98 and 03. I'm paid off except dues and have taken many deluxe vacations that otherwise I wouldn't have afforded with many more to come until 2042. That's where the value is not reselling for whatever reason before maturity. I hope dvc does something since it gives me more value as an expected user until the end of the lease. If I have to dump it for whatever reason, I got my monies worth many times over. Gone are the days of reselling and making a profit.
__________________
spruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 08:30 PM   #37
Dean
DIS Veteran
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 31,748

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
Can you direct me to the data you have to support this? I think if I could find this sort of fundamental information about DVD it would settle a lot of my questions. But so far, I haven't found it and nobody has been able to show me anything significant.

It is a bit surprising that they can't turn much of a profit by reselling ROFR'd points. Lets say that instead of passing on my 250 point contract for $52 last month, I had bid $50 and they had stopped it. Then a year later, they sell those SSR points to someone who goes on their tour. Straight off the top, they take an extra $60 per point (selling for $110). But they have to pay a year of maintenance fees (~$5/point), plus some closing costs (~$5 per point). That drops them down to a mere $50/point of profit. What other direct expenses are there eating away at this? Maybe they aren't quite making 100% profit, but I'm not sure what the other direct, variable costs associated with this would be. Like I said, seeing the numbers would answer most of my questions.
You may want to look at the financial data related to the stock offerings. I doubt anyone can give you what you want because Disney doesn't release the info and other than profit and loss type statements, other timeshares don't either.

As for not being able to make much of a profit on ROFR, consider these points. First, timeshare are generally priced around double their real development costs. DVD's model is to build and sell new retail timeshares. Any ROFR they sell is in direct competition with new retail resort sales. When they're generally making $50 a point roughly on a new sale, why buy something they can't make nearly that much on. ROFR has never been about making a profit on those points but rather about controlling the market. Something that doesn't work very well when the spread is what it is now. That's not to say they don't make any money on ROFR points but not that much and it's not a focus.

If you truly want to learn about timeshares and how they work including sales I'd direct you to several methods. One, spend a lot of time on TUG, two spend a lot of time talking to management at as many different resorts as possible and look at the ARDA information. The reality is you'll be able to get a lot more info in the general areas in question from other timeshares than Disney. As an owner, it's always possible to make an appt and go talk to various VP types and the voting rep in Celebration, they are very nice and accommodating people as a rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by js View Post
But the ones that were already grandfathered (resale purchased in 2009), would still be grandfathered, is that correct?
Thanks.
Very likely but no guarantee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
In September, the guide offered us any resort and any use year and any point amount. He recommended OKW, in fact.
As a group, timeshare sales people are some of the most skilled sales type there are. By spending time chit chatting with you and picking up on body language and very subtle clues, they often know exactly the approach that will get you interested. Also remember that the guide's goal is not necessarily the same as DVD. Their goal is to get you to buy and get their cut.

If you're trying to figure out the whole story on DVC and timeshares and know exactly what to expect now and in the future, owning a timeshare likely isn't for you. Timeshares are an illusion, simply smoke and mirrors. They're never what you expect and they always changes, generally for the worse. My rule of thumb is to assume the worst and hope for the best. That comes from 18 years of timesharing experience with DVC, Marriott, Bluegreen, II, RCI and others.

From a management and user friendliness standpoint, DVC is likely the best overall but it's not perfect and it's a specialty item only reasonable for stays at DVC resorts for those that value such and can plan ahead sufficiently. Ultimately it takes simple faith to take the plunge.
__________________
Dean
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 09:31 PM   #38
bighoo93
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 367

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post

As a group, timeshare sales people are some of the most skilled sales type there are. By spending time chit chatting with you and picking up on body language and very subtle clues, they often know exactly the approach that will get you interested. Also remember that the guide's goal is not necessarily the same as DVD. Their goal is to get you to buy and get their cut.
There is no doubt about it, our guide had me sized up perfectly within about 5 minutes. He wasn't shy about telling me so, and he was right on the money.
bighoo93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 10:06 PM   #39
DougEMG
DIS Veteran
 
DougEMG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 1,732

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
My rule of thumb is to assume the worst and hope for the best.
Excellent advice for anyone looking to purchase, direct or resale.
__________________
DougEMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 05:34 AM   #40
Dean
DIS Veteran
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 31,748

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
There is no doubt about it, our guide had me sized up perfectly within about 5 minutes. He wasn't shy about telling me so, and he was right on the money.
I'm a little unclear as to exactly what you want to know and are trying to get a handle on regarding DVC. Would you mind spelling it out for me?
__________________
Dean
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 08:32 AM   #41
bighoo93
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 367

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
I'm a little unclear as to exactly what you want to know and are trying to get a handle on regarding DVC. Would you mind spelling it out for me?
Honestly, just about anything would help. The Walt Disney Company financial reports are extremely light on any details regarding DVC/DVD (i.e., pretty much useless). But ideally I'd like to have that kind of information about their financial and operating details.

Usually I refer to specifics in posts where I ask about it, because people make claims or assertions that would require some particular information to support. I assume that they have seen it, but the way the internet and social media works these days, often you just have to see or hear something repeated enough that it becomes a "fact", even though it was never established with any evidence in the first place.

But for starters, what is the magnitude of their sales on an annual basis? What is their cost structure? How many points remain unsold on Disney's books at each resort? What is the historical rate of sales for points at various resorts?

When someone says that DVC needs to add restrictions to resale points because they are losing money via resale, I want to understand the magnitude of the alleged problem. Same for when someone claims that DVC needs to ban point renting because it is taking money away from Disney. These could be true, but without data to support, it is difficult to demonstrate it and impossible to understand the magnitude of the issue, which is really what would drive whether Disney would even consider taking any kind of action.
bighoo93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 11:09 AM   #42
DougEMG
DIS Veteran
 
DougEMG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 1,732

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
Honestly, just about anything would help. The Walt Disney Company financial reports are extremely light on any details regarding DVC/DVD (i.e., pretty much useless). But ideally I'd like to have that kind of information about their financial and operating details.

Usually I refer to specifics in posts where I ask about it, because people make claims or assertions that would require some particular information to support. I assume that they have seen it, but the way the internet and social media works these days, often you just have to see or hear something repeated enough that it becomes a "fact", even though it was never established with any evidence in the first place.

But for starters, what is the magnitude of their sales on an annual basis? What is their cost structure? How many points remain unsold on Disney's books at each resort? What is the historical rate of sales for points at various resorts?

When someone says that DVC needs to add restrictions to resale points because they are losing money via resale, I want to understand the magnitude of the alleged problem. Same for when someone claims that DVC needs to ban point renting because it is taking money away from Disney. These could be true, but without data to support, it is difficult to demonstrate it and impossible to understand the magnitude of the issue, which is really what would drive whether Disney would even consider taking any kind of action.
Over at DVCNews you can see data on the number of points sold at each resort by month. The last two months had big drops in sales.
__________________
DougEMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 11:19 AM   #43
Missyrose
DIS Veteran
 
Missyrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern Va.
Posts: 7,117

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighoo93 View Post
When someone says that DVC needs to add restrictions to resale points because they are losing money via resale, I want to understand the magnitude of the alleged problem. Same for when someone claims that DVC needs to ban point renting because it is taking money away from Disney. These could be true, but without data to support, it is difficult to demonstrate it and impossible to understand the magnitude of the issue, which is really what would drive whether Disney would even consider taking any kind of action.
Some of it is just common sense. If resale owners couldn't rent their points out, there could potentially be unused points. Unused points = unused villas and unused villas get turned over to Disney at 60 days out to sell for cash reservations.

On another thread, someone posted that the cash rate for a two-bedroom lake view villa at BLT is $773 rack rate. So yes, Disney loses out on money from rentals (and it loses even more when you take into account that the people renting points would probably otherwise be giving their lodging costs directly to Disney).
__________________
Missy Franklin (Pixel Dust) | Facebook: World of Yesterday, Tomorrow & Fantasy | Current TR: 8/14, 5/14 Past TR: 10/13, 1/13, 5/13, 10/12, 3/12 , 10/11, 10/10
'86, '90, '94, '98, '09, '10 -- Off site, 10/2011 -- CR, 3/2012 -- Windsor Hills, 10/2012 -- BCV/AKV-Jambo, 01/2013 -- BWV, 5/2013 -- BLT, 10/2013 -- YC CL, 5/2014 -- BWV, 08/2014 -- VGF/BLT, 12/2014 -- BWV, 4/2015 -- BLT

Missyrose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:18 PM   #44
DebbieB
DVC Member BWV 99
You have to compare apples to apples
 
DebbieB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: PA
Posts: 47,511

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missyrose View Post
Some of it is just common sense. If resale owners couldn't rent their points out, there could potentially be unused points. Unused points = unused villas and unused villas get turned over to Disney at 60 days out to sell for cash reservations.

On another thread, someone posted that the cash rate for a two-bedroom lake view villa at BLT is $773 rack rate. So yes, Disney loses out on money from rentals (and it loses even more when you take into account that the people renting points would probably otherwise be giving their lodging costs directly to Disney).
There have been issues with CRO filling cash rooms. Just a couple of weeks ago there was a post on the resorts board saying people were once again being offered free upgrades from value resorts to OKW or SSR. They have a hard time filling villas because they are expensive. If you check on disney's website, typically DVC villas are available up to the last minute. I think that was part of the reason they started restricting resales, less trades mean less cash rooms they have to fill to pay for trades.
__________________
DebbieB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:26 PM   #45
KingRichard
DIS Veteran
 
KingRichard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,148

Quote:
Originally Posted by DebbieB View Post
There have been issues with CRO filling cash rooms. Just a couple of weeks ago there was a post on the resorts board saying people were once again being offered free upgrades from value resorts to OKW or SSR. They have a hard time filling villas because they are expensive. If you check on disney's website, typically DVC villas are available up to the last minute. I think that was part of the reason they started restricting resales, less trades mean less cash rooms they have to fill to pay for trades.
So as a owner is it costing us money for Disney to give away free upgrades?

Someone pays $100 per night and gets put in a room that cost $300 night?

We pay house keeping, maint, security and trans. plus what ever else?

When DVC or Disney rents a room, how much is added directly into the budget to keep our dues down?

Thanks all!
__________________


GRAND SLAM COMPLETE! Feb. 11 Dream, April 12 Wonder(Hawaii), Feb. 13 Fantasy, Feb. 14 Magic, June 14 Wonder(Alaska) 36 NOB
KingRichard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

DVC-Resales.com | 1-800-550-6493 (Contact The Timeshare Store) | DVC Resale Listings

facebooktwittergoogle plus youtube itunesDIS Updates
GET OUR DIS UPDATES DELIVERED BY EMAIL



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Copyright © 1997-2014, Werner Technologies, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

You Rated this Thread: