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Old 12-13-2012, 11:49 AM   #16
npmommie
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Thanks photo chick that helps.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:01 PM   #17
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I agree. But I think you should rent a fast lens for a weekend first with your Pentax dSLR, and see how it does.

If it does well, and to your liking, then you could consider buying one, or buying another dSLR or mirrorless system paired with a fast lens.

Things to consider are your budget, ergonomics, and which system you'd like to stick with long term, since fast lenses are expensive. (Also remember it will still take a while for you to learn how to get good pictures under those conditions no matter which camera you go with.)

In the past, getting consistently good low light shots with movement would have been nearly impossible with a point and shoot. It could be that some of the newer advances on point and shoots dispel this thinking, but you'd have to try it out and see if it works for you. I would imagine it would still be far more challenging than using a dSLR/fast lens combination.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npmommie View Post
i know you guys are sick of hearing from me! lol
i am reading and reading and it seems like if the sensor too small, even if the aperature is 2.8 across the zoom like the fz200 there could be noisey pics? am I understanding correctly.
so a bigger sensor is better?

at this point I am considering just using my 20 year old film SLR with its equally old 50mm 1.4 lense.
hah.

I used it about 6 years ago on a vacation because at the time my sony digi camera broke, and the heat I took from complete strangers ( wow you really should get current, get a digital camera, you still use that thing?)..... was kind of funny but i got some beautiful pictures on that trip!
All else being equal (equal quality lens, equal aperture, equal sensor quality), then larger sensor is definitely better. Less noise, better depth of field. You can look up the DXO scores, for their noise ratings. I don't think they have rated the FZ200 yet, but the FX150 is rated poorly for noise -- with noise appearing over ISO of 132. Most dSLRs, with their larger sensors, rate 800+

There are multiple avenues to get to your destination.

Your destination -- You need properly exposed photos, in poor light, with a fast shutter speed. So your options are a bigger aperture (the lens), and/or higher ISO. (a sensor issue).
If, for example -- You are currently shooting with an aperture of 5.6, and ISO of 400 --
Then in terms of exposure -- You would get the same exposure results at 2.8 and ISO 400 --- or 5.6, and ISO of 1600.

So it's a matter of which path you prefer, which path will produce less noise, which path is more cost-effective.

In terms of your old 50mm 1.4 lens... is it Pentax? Or what brand is it?
You may be able to take that lens, and stick it in a new dSLR body.
That would give you GREAT low light ability, though all your sports/dance shots would be pretty wide.

I can't talk specifically about the FZ200 -- But I would suspect you will start to notice noise above ISO400-800 range.
With dSLRs, if you shoot in jpeg so noise reduction is automatic (if you shoot in RAW, you later can apply noise reduction yourself), you probably won't notice any noise all the way up to ISO 3200/6400.

Generally speaking, it will be cheaper to buy a camera body with good ISO sensitivity, than to buy a good F2.8 telephoto zoom lens. Though that good zoom lens will give you extra benefits, and can last for 20 years. (As mention, my "Sony" lenses are mostly 20-30 years old).
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pea-n-Me View Post
In the past, getting consistently good low light shots with movement would have been nearly impossible with a point and shoot. It could be that some of the newer advances on point and shoots dispel this thinking, but you'd have to try it out and see if it works for you. I would imagine it would still be far more challenging than using a dSLR/fast lens combination.
I generally don't even try to shoot low-light sports with the RX100, but I was at an ice rink so I decided to try it as a hockey game was going on. I'll post some examples of the results when I get a chance. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the results, though the shots are fairly "wide angle." Not enough telephoto reach for good sports shots. But I was pleasantly surprised at the sharpness and exposure achieved.
But I'd still opt for the dSLR in that situation.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Pea-n-Me View Post
I agree. But I think you should rent a fast lens for a weekend first with your Pentax dSLR, and see how it does.

If it does well, and to your liking, then you could consider buying one, or buying another dSLR or mirrorless system paired with a fast lens.

Things to consider are your budget, ergonomics, and which system you'd like to stick with long term, since fast lenses are expensive. (Also remember it will still take a while for you to learn how to get good pictures under those conditions no matter which camera you go with.)

In the past, getting consistently good low light shots with movement would have been nearly impossible with a point and shoot. It could be that some of the newer advances on point and shoots dispel this thinking, but you'd have to try it out and see if it works for you. I would imagine it would still be far more challenging than using a dSLR/fast lens combination.
Pea, I looked around to see where I could rent a lense, and out here in the "sticks" I couldn't find anything! which didn't surprise me
we will be over in your area ( kind of ) this weekend for a meet

Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc315 View Post
All else being equal (equal quality lens, equal aperture, equal sensor quality), then larger sensor is definitely better. Less noise, better depth of field. You can look up the DXO scores, for their noise ratings. I don't think they have rated the FZ200 yet, but the FX150 is rated poorly for noise -- with noise appearing over ISO of 132. Most dSLRs, with their larger sensors, rate 800+

There are multiple avenues to get to your destination.

Your destination -- You need properly exposed photos, in poor light, with a fast shutter speed. So your options are a bigger aperture (the lens), and/or higher ISO. (a sensor issue).
If, for example -- You are currently shooting with an aperture of 5.6, and ISO of 400 --
Then in terms of exposure -- You would get the same exposure results at 2.8 and ISO 400 --- or 5.6, and ISO of 1600.

So it's a matter of which path you prefer, which path will produce less noise, which path is more cost-effective.

In terms of your old 50mm 1.4 lens... is it Pentax? Or what brand is it?
You may be able to take that lens, and stick it in a new dSLR body.
That would give you GREAT low light ability, though all your sports/dance shots would be pretty wide.

I can't talk specifically about the FZ200 -- But I would suspect you will start to notice noise above ISO400-800 range.
With dSLRs, if you shoot in jpeg so noise reduction is automatic (if you shoot in RAW, you later can apply noise reduction yourself), you probably won't notice any noise all the way up to ISO 3200/6400.

Generally speaking, it will be cheaper to buy a camera body with good ISO sensitivity, than to buy a good F2.8 telephoto zoom lens. Though that good zoom lens will give you extra benefits, and can last for 20 years. (As mention, my "Sony" lenses are mostly 20-30 years old).
the old slr camera is a Chinon. ( do they even make those anymore, LOL).......I put the lense on my Pentax, it fit, but the camera didn't work with it on. maybe I did something wrong, not sure.

so with all my reading and the help here on the board, I am beginning to see how it works. and it is starting to make sense.

I was in low light situation yesterday and had the pentax with me, I played with some settings but still didn't get good pictures. so I know a lot of this is operator error. I don't fully understand all the settings. so probably a big reason I should not buy another dslr til I learn to properly use it.

I did get better pictures with my iphone.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc315 View Post
I generally don't even try to shoot low-light sports with the RX100, but I was at an ice rink so I decided to try it as a hockey game was going on. I'll post some examples of the results when I get a chance. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the results, though the shots are fairly "wide angle." Not enough telephoto reach for good sports shots. But I was pleasantly surprised at the sharpness and exposure achieved.
But I'd still opt for the dSLR in that situation.
Well hurry up and post them since the OP needs to make a decision! I suspect she'd prefer to go with a point and shoot if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npmommie View Post
I did get better pictures with my iphone.
OMG, the horror! (I still have a 3GS and the camera stinks, but others in my family have the 4S and I really like using it a lot. I might actually upgrade solely for that reason.)
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc315 View Post
I generally don't even try to shoot low-light sports with the RX100, but I was at an ice rink so I decided to try it as a hockey game was going on. I'll post some examples of the results when I get a chance. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the results, though the shots are fairly "wide angle." Not enough telephoto reach for good sports shots. But I was pleasantly surprised at the sharpness and exposure achieved.
But I'd still opt for the dSLR in that situation.
I have been looking at the rx100 as another pocket camera. my lumix is old and I should upgrade.

but anyway, on the hockey shots, how would they look if you cropped them as opposed to zoom. is the camera clear enough to crop out the subjects?
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #23
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Well hurry up and post them since the OP needs to make a decision! I suspect she'd prefer to go with a point and shoot if possible.
Pea knows me well, LOL!

yes since I let this dslr sit in the closet for 3 or 4 years, I think a simple camera is best for me, LOL
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:28 PM   #24
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I have been looking at the rx100 as another pocket camera. my lumix is old and I should upgrade.

but anyway, on the hockey shots, how would they look if you cropped them as opposed to zoom. is the camera clear enough to crop out the subjects?
I'll post tonight, or no later than this weekend.
From past experience cropping with the camera, you can generally use the crop as a means of doubling your zoom. Do more than that, and you start to notice the loss of image quality. Though I suppose you could crop more, if you are just aiming for a 4X6. But if you crop half the picture, you are basically giving yourself 200mm telephoto or so. If you put a 200mm lens on a good crop-body dSLR (like the A37), then you are effectively getting 300mm.... and if you crop half of it, then you are getting 600mm effectively.
So no matter how you slice it, the RX100 won't give you the best possible reach.
But cropping will definitely give you a bit more reach.

Now all that said, the RX100 does require some learning if you really want to get the best results. It is very comparable to a dSLR -- with plenty of different modes and manual setting. Yes, it has auto -- just like a dSLR has auto. But my RX100 actually is more customizable than my A55.

To get a sense of what you would be in for, take a peek at the user guide:

http://esupport.sony.com/docs/dvimag.../en/index.html
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:54 PM   #25
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the old slr camera is a Chinon. ( do they even make those anymore, LOL).......I put the lense on my Pentax, it fit, but the camera didn't work with it on. maybe I did something wrong, not sure.
If your SLR was a Chinon, it was most likely using Pentax's K mount, so the lenses would fit on a Pentax DSLR. When you said the camera 'didn't work' with it on, did you mean you couldn't even get it to fire the shutter, or just that it didn't seem to do anything automatically? Your Chinon camera was quite likely fully manual - you had to set the aperture on the lens, and focus manually. So you'd have to do the same on your Pentax camera body - switch the camera to A (Aperture Priority) or M (Manual) modes, and set the aperture on the lens, and dial in the focus. It's possible that the Pentax DSLR has a function somewhere in the menu that allows the camera to fire the shutter w/o a lens attached - you need to enable this function, since the old Chinon lenses have no electronic connections to the camera body.

I still use Chinon lenses on my Sony NEX-5N - a cheap adapter and I can use all my old Pentax mount lenses - some of the Chinon lenses are excellent (I have a particularly sharp 50mm F1.9 and an excellent 135mm F2.8). But it's way old-style photography - all manual focusing and manual aperture setting. The camera can still meter directly through the lens, so I can use A priority mode and let the camera set the shutter speed & ISO if I want...but other than that, it's very hands-on manual style. You could likely use the Chinon lenses on your Pentax DSLR the same way.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:31 PM   #26
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If your SLR was a Chinon, it was most likely using Pentax's K mount, so the lenses would fit on a Pentax DSLR. When you said the camera 'didn't work' with it on, did you mean you couldn't even get it to fire the shutter, or just that it didn't seem to do anything automatically? Your Chinon camera was quite likely fully manual - you had to set the aperture on the lens, and focus manually. So you'd have to do the same on your Pentax camera body - switch the camera to A (Aperture Priority) or M (Manual) modes, and set the aperture on the lens, and dial in the focus. It's possible that the Pentax DSLR has a function somewhere in the menu that allows the camera to fire the shutter w/o a lens attached - you need to enable this function, since the old Chinon lenses have no electronic connections to the camera body.

I still use Chinon lenses on my Sony NEX-5N - a cheap adapter and I can use all my old Pentax mount lenses - some of the Chinon lenses are excellent (I have a particularly sharp 50mm F1.9 and an excellent 135mm F2.8). But it's way old-style photography - all manual focusing and manual aperture setting. The camera can still meter directly through the lens, so I can use A priority mode and let the camera set the shutter speed & ISO if I want...but other than that, it's very hands-on manual style. You could likely use the Chinon lenses on your Pentax DSLR the same way.
Thank you! I was able to change the setting and yes it works now! it must be the same lense you mentioned, its the 50mm F1.9
I am going to play with it tonight at the gym and see how it works
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:54 PM   #27
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Okay... Hockey pictures, taken from far above the ice, and behind glass with the RX100.
Each set includes the original "wide" picture, and then a cropped copy. They are each cropped to a different degree. All photos were shot in RAW, and exported to jpeg with lightroom. The "originals" just have some lighting adjustments, but no noise removal. Once cropped, noise was much more obvious, so I applied some noise reduction to the cropped copies.

Here you go:


autumn-76.jpg by Havoc315, on Flickr


autumn-76-2.jpg by Havoc315, on Flickr


autumn-77.jpg by Havoc315, on Flickr


autumn-77-2.jpg by Havoc315, on Flickr


autumn-78.jpg by Havoc315, on Flickr


autumn-78-2.jpg by Havoc315, on Flickr

Conclusion: The RX100 does not match the ability of a dSLR for sports photography, but it is surprisingly "not bad."
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:43 PM   #28
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Havoc thank you for posting those! I think they look pretty good. And i am sure you were much farther away than i typically am at a gym meet.
That is really an impressive point and shoot!
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:43 AM   #29
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That is really an impressive point and shoot!
Be careful considering it a "point and shoot." That is, I don't want you to falsely get the impression that it's a 1-click camera. It's really only a point and shoot in size. In terms of features, quality and use, it's really more like a mirrorless camera with a fixed lens. It's sensor is the same size as the Nikon 1 series -- so it has the same size sensor found in a line of mirrorless cameras. It actually has more features than the Nikon 1 -- the features, including the manual controls, are more in line with a high level dSLR. In fact, it has some manual controls/features that I wish I had on the A55, including tracking focus, peaking manual focus, and customizable memory settings.
And finally the lens, while it is a fixed lens, it is actually superior to the kit lens included with most dSLRs and mirrorless systems.

If you are leaning towards a compact camera due to size, then the RX100 is a fantastic choice. But if you are thinking that is will be easier and simpler than a dSLR.... then it's not a great choice.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc315 View Post
Be careful considering it a "point and shoot." That is, I don't want you to falsely get the impression that it's a 1-click camera. It's really only a point and shoot in size. In terms of features, quality and use, it's really more like a mirrorless camera with a fixed lens. It's sensor is the same size as the Nikon 1 series -- so it has the same size sensor found in a line of mirrorless cameras. It actually has more features than the Nikon 1 -- the features, including the manual controls, are more in line with a high level dSLR. In fact, it has some manual controls/features that I wish I had on the A55, including tracking focus, peaking manual focus, and customizable memory settings.
And finally the lens, while it is a fixed lens, it is actually superior to the kit lens included with most dSLRs and mirrorless systems.

If you are leaning towards a compact camera due to size, then the RX100 is a fantastic choice. But if you are thinking that is will be easier and simpler than a dSLR.... then it's not a great choice.
This can be said of more than a few point and shoots. There are a lot of them that are far more capable cameras than people give them credit for. Especially if you really know how to take control of the camera.
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