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Old 12-10-2012, 08:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by photo_chick View Post
I think it's the idea that a DSLR=good photos. Manufacturers did a good job convincing the public that they are necessary.

LittleMissMagic-- that used to bother me as well. But I came to the realization that what someone else does has no impact on my work, or what people think of what I do. So who cares if someone is gullible enough to pay for their crap. I'll keep doing my thing and they can do theirs.
Agree. I sometime think some of my best pictures were taken with y first camera, a Brownie.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:41 PM   #32
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I have fond memories of spending hours typing code into my Atari computer in Basic back in the early 80's just to play a simple game. Only to loose it all when I turned it off because I had no method to save it.

But more to my point.. the technology has been there. It wasn't until camera makers decided to market it to casual photographers (like with the 35mm Rebel) that it started to change who was using SLR cameras. The instant gratification of digital did increase the use of cameras in general exponentially. But you can look back at many of the innovations in photography and see this kind of thing over and over. Go way back to the first Kodak cameras that took photography out of the hands of the "professionals" and put it in the hands of consumers. "You push the button we do the rest". DSLR's are just the current thing. And soon enough the next big thing will come along.
That was awesome when I finally got a casette recorder for my TI 99/4a and could finally save my programs!

I think the other factor is price. For why my dad paid for his first 2mp Nikon PnS and tele adaptor, I think he could now nearly get a d7000 kit...and entry level DSLr's are now below $500 (which is flat screen or iPad money) so DSLr's are in an affordable range.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:59 PM   #33
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That was awesome when I finally got a casette recorder for my TI 99/4a and could finally save my programs!

I think the other factor is price. For why my dad paid for his first 2mp Nikon PnS and tele adaptor, I think he could now nearly get a d7000 kit...and entry level DSLr's are now below $500 (which is flat screen or iPad money) so DSLr's are in an affordable range.
I remember when we got a cassette recorder for the Atari. Then I'd play back the tapes on a "regular" cassette player to hear the data as sounds.

On the price... look at the prices that appear to have come down as far as DSLR's go. The big 2 manufacturers released a "sub class" of DSLR's that were under the $1000 mark to start with. Nikon did it with the D40 and Canon did it with the Rebel XS. Those lines are stripped down from what the $1000 range entry level lines were. And if you look, a new current model Canon that runs $1000 is the T4i and that follows the line from the original digital Rebel, the Rebel XT, XTi, T1i, T2i... etc. They are all around $1000 when first released. You'll find the same type of thing in the Nikon line with the cameras that are descended from their pre-D40 entry level DSLR's still starting near $1000 when they first come out. So the price hasn't really come down on the line in general they've just stripped down a camera and are selling it for less to get more casual photographers using it. If you look back, this is exactly what Canon did when it released the 35mm Rebel. It was the affordable sub-$1000 SLR that anyone could use.

Other makers do have cheaper prices. But a lot of what they offer follows in line with what Canon and Nikon are doing.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:38 AM   #34
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I like to check pics on the screen, too. I don't do it after every shot, but usually after I've taken a shot or two in one location just to make sure that everything is working with lighting/composition/etc. This is because I always end up coming home with photos where I'm like, "Dang - if I would've changed X, this photo could be so much better!" And the exceptionally devastating case is when the photo isn't salvagable with post processing. Once, I had been shooting late at night at WDW, and I had bumped up the ISO really high. The next day, we headed to Port Canaveral for our cruise, and it was wonderfully sunny outside... and I had forgotten to turn down the ISO... so all of my photos had ridiculous high ISO noise and many were overexposed. Had I only taken the time to look at a few photos on the LCD screen, I would've realized my mistake sooner!
I spent most of my time in WDW shooting in M after day one.

I think the difference between 'bird dogging' just to see, vs then adjusting the settings are two different things.

As an example, I walked out of enchanted tales with Belles and saw a few really cool shots with that roving couple act they have and after a few shots 'bird dogged' my LCD. It was white, white, white. I forgot to reset my ISO as I walked out of Belle's.

I missed the best shots, some hilarious candids but at least I was able to recover.

Personally, I am no where near enough experienced to shoot in M without checking myself after a shot or two, it isn't ingrained yet. Like the ISO issues I had a few times. I simply forgot about it when in good lighting.

It's a learning process. I feel good for a person when I see them take a few pics, 'bird dog' and then alter their settings.

I do shake my head when they keep trying the same thing expecting different results, but I do that with everything from politics to work, so that's more par for the course
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:48 AM   #35
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I remember when we got a cassette recorder for the Atari. Then I'd play back the tapes on a "regular" cassette player to hear the data as sounds.

On the price... look at the prices that appear to have come down as far as DSLR's go. The big 2 manufacturers released a "sub class" of DSLR's that were under the $1000 mark to start with. Nikon did it with the D40 and Canon did it with the Rebel XS. Those lines are stripped down from what the $1000 range entry level lines were. And if you look, a new current model Canon that runs $1000 is the T4i and that follows the line from the original digital Rebel, the Rebel XT, XTi, T1i, T2i... etc. They are all around $1000 when first released. You'll find the same type of thing in the Nikon line with the cameras that are descended from their pre-D40 entry level DSLR's still starting near $1000 when they first come out. So the price hasn't really come down on the line in general they've just stripped down a camera and are selling it for less to get more casual photographers using it. If you look back, this is exactly what Canon did when it released the 35mm Rebel. It was the affordable sub-$1000 SLR that anyone could use.

Other makers do have cheaper prices. But a lot of what they offer follows in line with what Canon and Nikon are doing.
Stripped down only when compared to the most current top of the line. A 2012 $500 dSLR will generally exceed the performance and features of a 2005 $1,000 camera. The price point for current top of the line has stayed the same. But that has still allowed the technology to get cheaper overall, to broaden the market. Other than weather sealing, I don't really find $500 cameras lacking.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:17 AM   #36
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I "bird dog" fairly often too. I do turn off the auto review. But then I go and review after a series of shots. Largely, so I can delete shots as I go, so I don't have 20 nearly identical shots filling up my memory card, and 1000 shots to go through at the end of the day.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:51 AM   #37
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With some exceptions. You can tell the folks who don't know what they are doing when they "bird dog" the LCD review after every shot they take.

I will use the LCD to check exposure on 1 or 2 shots for an environment. But I have review turned off and can o hours without looking at the pix in my camera
You're a much better photographer than me, then. I review photos on the LCD screen much more frequently than that.

Now that I know reviewing the LCD screen is the sign of a bad photographer, I'm really going to work on this. Thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!1!!!
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:01 AM   #38
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I "bird dog" fairly often too. I do turn off the auto review. But then I go and review after a series of shots. Largely, so I can delete shots as I go, so I don't have 20 nearly identical shots filling up my memory card, and 1000 shots to go through at the end of the day.
I'd actually like to be able to use the LCD screen more than I do, but I haven't figured out the best way to deal with the fact that I can't see the darn thing without fishing a pair of reading glasses out of my pocket. Even when I do, I still can't see the small screen well enough to discern the details of how well I did with the focus or other small nuances in the shot. In Florida, I'll glance at the LCD often to see how bad the "blinkies" are in a particular shot to determine if I need to use some additional compensation. Other than that, though, I really only use it when changing something in the menus. I bought a magnified hood for it, but that's especially awkward to use, and while it does cut down on sun glare on the LCD, still doesn’t give me an excellent view. (The one I bought isn’t strong enough, so I still need to use the reading glasses with it.)

I like to shoot with a somewhat narrow depth of field. I wouldn't be brave enough to delete images from the camera in the field, because with my luck I'd get rid of the one shot where I'd caught the focus perfectly as intended. I really can't see my photos properly until I get them up in Lightroom on a large screen.

I'm surprised no one has commented yet in this thread about how many of the people who buy expensive DSLRs (and even P&S) never realize the actual benefits of the money they spent because they never take time to actually read the manual. I'm amazed, sometimes, when friends who I know have nice cameras will show me a photo album where they've posted really, really awful pictures -- even those that are terribly out of focus. From an artistic and technical perspective, their use of the camera was a failure. But, it served their purpose to capture the moment. (In those cases, they probably would have been just as happy with the results of using their phone or tablet to take the photos.)

Even though the tools are becoming more common between the two groups, I think there will always be a distinction between those who are trying to create art through photography and those who just want to take snapshots. Unfortunately for those of you who make a living with photography, many people don't have discerning taste as to where in the spectrum of art-versus-snapshot their results fall. So yeah, Uncle Joe with his Rebel will start taking away some paying jobs. Don't fret about it too much, though, some of them are probably the same people who would have been satisfied to just swipe the grainy watermarked proofs off your web site instead of purchasing anything.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:29 AM   #39
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I'd actually like to be able to use the LCD screen more than I do, but I haven't figured out the best way to deal with the fact that I can't see the darn thing without fishing a pair of reading glasses out of my pocket. Even when I do, I still can't see the small screen well enough to discern the details of how well I did with the focus or other small nuances in the shot. In Florida, I'll glance at the LCD often to see how bad the "blinkies" are in a particular shot to determine if I need to use some additional compensation. Other than that, though, I really only use it when changing something in the menus. I bought a magnified hood for it, but that's especially awkward to use, and while it does cut down on sun glare on the LCD, still doesn’t give me an excellent view. (The one I bought isn’t strong enough, so I still need to use the reading glasses with it.)

I like to shoot with a somewhat narrow depth of field. I wouldn't be brave enough to delete images from the camera in the field, because with my luck I'd get rid of the one shot where I'd caught the focus perfectly as intended. I really can't see my photos properly until I get them up in Lightroom on a large screen.
.
The benefit of a high resolution LCD and/or EVF.

Yes, there is the danger of deleting good shots. And I only use the LCD for an initial weeding out of shots. For example, I shoot my kids doing Tae Kwon Do at a burst rate of 10 fps. It's not unusually for me to get 100 shots in just 2 or 3 minutes. So I tried to weed those 100 down to 25. Then once in Lightroom, from 25 down to the top 5 or 6. I've tried to get better about not having too many of the same shot.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:13 AM   #40
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Stripped down only when compared to the most current top of the line. A 2012 $500 dSLR will generally exceed the performance and features of a 2005 $1,000 camera. The price point for current top of the line has stayed the same. But that has still allowed the technology to get cheaper overall, to broaden the market. Other than weather sealing, I don't really find $500 cameras lacking.
I'm going to disagree slightly here. If you're comparing ISO to ISO, yes. But it's about more than just ISO. Having used a Rebel XT and a Rebel XS side by side, the XT is still more capable camera as far as features and the build quality is noticeably better than the XS. Whether or not someone finds a stripped down camera lacking is really a matter of what an individual photographer needs from a camera. But no, I don't think most casual photographers will find the bare bones entry level cameras lacking at all. They have all that you need to take control of the shot.

Technology has gotten cheaper. And yet the prices for the line are still in the same ballpark. My point was that when the makers decided to court the casual photographers they released a cheaper camera rather than lower prices on what they already had. It was a calculated move to broaden their consumer base.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:27 AM   #41
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With some exceptions. You can tell the folks who don't know what they are doing when they "bird dog" the LCD review after every shot they take.

I will use the LCD to check exposure on 1 or 2 shots for an environment. But I have review turned off and can o hours without looking at the pix in my camera
I missed this comment.

So you're saying that checking the LCD screen is a sign someone doesn't know what they're doing? I must be really clueless then because I'm always checking my histogram and the framing since my crop camera viewfinder does not have 100% coverage. I've even been known to use the zoom tool and check my focus when it really matters. Does this also apply to the studio? Because when I use my DSLR in there I'm checking every time I make an adjustment to the strobes.

One thing that's been said by my professors repeatedly in my photography classes is that you should take advantage of every tool available to you to make the best image possible. Why on Earth would I not check the LCD screen? It's not a sign of someone who doesn't know what their doing, it's a sign of someone who wants to make sure they got it right. Nothing wrong with double checking yourself.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:05 AM   #42
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I missed this comment.

So you're saying that checking the LCD screen is a sign someone doesn't know what they're doing? I must be really clueless then because I'm always checking my histogram and the framing since my crop camera viewfinder does not have 100% coverage. I've even been known to use the zoom tool and check my focus when it really matters. Does this also apply to the studio? Because when I use my DSLR in there I'm checking every time I make an adjustment to the strobes.
I am also one that checks the lcd, especially when I am shooting racing photos where I am creating blurred backgrounds but want the car to be sharp still. I dont want to wait till I got home to see if I got what I was hoping for.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:25 AM   #43
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...I'll glance at the LCD often to see how bad the "blinkies" are in a particular shot to determine if I need to use some additional compensation...
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Originally Posted by photo_chick View Post
...I must be really clueless then because I'm always checking my histogram...
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I am also one that checks the lcd...
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM   #44
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I've never heard the term "bird dogging" to refer to checking the LCD screen after a shot. I know it as "chimping". And yes, I check it, too, to make sure I'm in the ballpark I want to be in, in terms of exposure and general composition - i.e. no feet or heads cut off, no crooked landscapes, etc. (my pet peeves). I don't get into minute detail while chimping, which is why I also don't generally delete photos that aren't blatantly bad. Memory cards are such now that I can throw in another easily enough and hit the delete button later on as I'm going through them on my computer, where I can see more detail and decide then if it's worth saving or not. Sometimes, even if a picture isn't great, there might be something about it worth saving. I've had some pleasant surprises that way.

DSLRs have been increasing in popularity for years. I learned as a newb not to be too intimidated by anyone else or worry about what they're using or what they're doing. One night I was taking night photos near home, my camera set up on a tripod, and I was fiddling around with various settings to see what worked best, etc. A lady came by and asked to see my shots, told me she was a professional photographer, etc. "Great", I thought, "I can ask her some questions!" But when I asked her about settings and such, she quickly balked and said, "Oh, I don't know about that, I only shoot on Auto". Um, ok. Not that there's anything wrong with shooting on Auto necessarily, it's just that I was surprised to hear this from someone who claimed to be a "professional", and it made me realize how individual this is for everyone, regardless of what type of camera they use or how long they've been shooting, etc.

So, my philosophy is - don't tell me what kind of camera you use, or how great your skills are - SHOW ME YOUR SHOTS!
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:14 PM   #45
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Not that there's anything wrong with shooting on Auto necessarily, it's just that I was surprised to hear this from someone who claimed to be a "professional", and it made me realize how individual this is for everyone, regardless of what type of camera they use or how long they've been shooting, etc.
Being a "professional" is more about your business and marketing skills than your craft. I'm sure we've all found some amateur photographers and musicians who can smoke some of the pros we've seen.
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