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Old 12-10-2012, 12:23 PM   #31
GrnMtnMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchlovestink View Post
seat kicking is not okay even twice.
I'm going to re-post my message, bolding the take-away
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrnMtnMan View Post
Or not fly at all on commercial aircraft....if a 3 YO kicking a seat could harm your back, then moderate-to-heavy turbulence or a rough landing could cause far more harm. Or the olympic gold medal winner of the decathlon could be on your flight and trip and shake your seat. Or an old man could need to hold onto your seat back to get up and down from his seat to go to the bathroom every 10 minutes. All are pretty equivalent to a rambunctious 3 year old kicking a seat. If you are really in this much jeopardy of an injury, then its time to look into other means of transportation.
I don't think it's okay for a kid to kick a seat. But it is a risk once you get on an airplane that has other members of the general public. There could be misbehaved kids, loud people, smelly people, etc, and the manner in which those people behave could have an impact on you. It would be nice if everyone was polite and considerate, but they're not.

The reality is that the bubble of personal space is much smaller on an airplane. If someone coming into that space, intentionally or unintentionally, poses a danger to you then you need to look out for your personal safety and find alternate means of transportation.
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Last edited by GrnMtnMan; 12-10-2012 at 12:24 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:03 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by GrnMtnMan View Post
I'm going to re-post my message, bolding the take-away
I don't think it's okay for a kid to kick a seat. But it is a risk once you get on an airplane that has other members of the general public. There could be misbehaved kids, loud people, smelly people, etc, and the manner in which those people behave could have an impact on you. It would be nice if everyone was polite and considerate, but they're not.

The reality is that the bubble of personal space is much smaller on an airplane. If someone coming into that space, intentionally or unintentionally, poses a danger to you then you need to look out for your personal safety and find alternate means of transportation.
A Seat Kick is not going to cause injury to me but it certainly could cause me a Great Deal of Pain. And I DO realize that it is a risk that I take whenever I go out in public! Trust me, I run a HIGHER risk riding in a car because I am much more likely to be injured in a car accident (than on a plane) and that will Definitely SCREW up my back even more! I am not a heartless person when it comes to kids or medical issues. I wouldn't wish chronic pain on my worst enemy! But car travel is a far worse risk for me. And sitting is the worst position for my condition as well. So I am to stay in my home and never go anywhere or do anything? Is that what you suggest?

All I was saying in my other post was offering a different point of view regarding that kicking a seat can 'be painful' for someone else but it clearly never gives them the right to 'go off' on someone else's child. I was NOT the one who said it would leave me being in a position to be so disabled I would not be able to get off of the plane. I would be in agony, but I could deplane. It wouldn't put my vacation off to a good start, but neither would being stuck on a train or in a car for 20ish hours sitting. My body couldn't handle that either.

I agree a little bit of kindness can go a long way and you can't control others. Like I tell my kids...you can't control what others do, you can only control how you react to what they do.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:47 PM   #33
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Is that what you suggest?
It's not what I'm suggesting for you, but there are quite a few child-haters out there who think kids shouldn't be allowed to fly...or take a train...or go to the movies, etc., until they can behave impossibly perfectly. Which means families with young children never vacationing...or flying to see sick family members, etc.

And I am seriously suggesting a train for you. Being from Bel-Air, you could catch the Silver Meteor or Silver Star from Wilmington or Baltimore. You'd have a reliably smooth-ish (swaying and the occasional small bump) ride, plus you can get up and walk around quite often, could also get a sleeper room and have complete privacy and no-risk of getting kicked by anybody but your travel companion.

And I'm not accusing you of being kid-hater, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I'm sure some of them are usually decent people outside of a aluminum tube that hurtles through the atmosphere, but they're out there.
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Last edited by GrnMtnMan; 12-10-2012 at 01:48 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:50 PM   #34
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I'm not seeing how not wanting a child repeatedly kicking the back of your seat makes you a child hater. People shouldn't jump down a parent's throat because their child twitches a bit. But neither should a child repeatedly kicking the seat in front of them be ok and excused just because they are a child.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:14 PM   #35
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I'm not seeing how not wanting a child repeatedly kicking the back of your seat makes you a child hater. People shouldn't jump down a parent's throat because their child twitches a bit.
It was twice...I wouldn't call that repeatedly.

Here response to the situation was what made her a child-hater.

Of course, kids shouldn't kick seats. But the complainant made the situation worse. That's what put's it in the child-hater category for me.

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But neither should a child repeatedly kicking the seat in front of them be ok and excused just because they are a child.
Are you suggesting that this was grounds for removal from the aircraft? That the child should have been punished right there and then? What punishment do you suggest? Remember, this was a 3 year old....at that age they still don't get consequences yet.

Summary of the OP:
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She kicked the seat in front of her twice and the lady went bollistic and called the fight attendant over to get onto us. She is three by the way.
...
I think the lady took it too far especially glaring at my child.
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Last edited by GrnMtnMan; 12-10-2012 at 03:20 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #36
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Wow, not sure how you get a child shouldn't be kicking the seat in front of them turned into a child should get thrown of the aircraft. I'm getting the feeling you just want to argue, and I'm not in the mood to oblige you.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:52 PM   #37
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I am sorry this happened to you. Please remember there are crabby people everywhere who just live to be mean. 2 kicks to a seat on a plane is NOT a big deal! Did you have her in a carseat? If so, flying home maybe go without the seat because then their legs don't reach the seat ahead when they kick. My DS2 doesn't fly that great either & he's flown a bunch of times. I put him at the window seat, he pulls the shade up & down, I let him stand when the seatbelt sign is off, we give him a pacifier or lollipop for his ears. If you are flying an airline like SW where you can pick your seat, try to sit near someone else with kids. Or put your child behind a child so if she hits the seat it is not a big deal.
Do NOT let this person wreck your trip. It is a 90 minute plane ride home, not the end of the world. We have been with screaming children (sometimes our own!) for longer than that in flight. Enjoy your vacation & don't worry about the trip home; it will work out.
I am sorry but it is NOT acceptable for a child to kick the back of the seat for an entire flight. And assuming that just because they don't like it the people are crabby?

If you want your child to have that freedom one of you take the seat in front of your child the other one sit next to her.

I love the "she's three so she can do whatever" tone this board is taking. One of my niece's pre school teachers sat my SIL down YEARS ago and said "if you let her walk all over you now how do you plan to maintain control when she's 14" Woke her up BIG TIME!
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:52 PM   #38
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Wow, not sure how you get a child shouldn't be kicking the seat in front of them turned into a child should get thrown of the aircraft.
I was pointing out, in practical terms, that there's really not much to be done in this situation. A parent could try to punish (verbally or corporeally, if that's your thing) a child for kicking the seat, but that would likely make the child's behavior worse in the short-run.

Removing the child from the flight is pretty much the only way to absolutely prevent the seat from being kicked again. Otherwise, its a 3 year old we're talking about and there no way to know how they will behave in a new situation. You can prepare them, comfort them, etc., but s/he might just kick the seat again.

It comes down to what you mean by 'not excusing' the child. My opinion is that 'excusing' or 'holding-accountable' dosen't apply in this situation....the perpetrator (3 Year old) can't comprehend either way.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by OrangeCountyCommuter View Post
I love the "she's three so she can do whatever" tone this board is taking. One of my niece's pre school teachers sat my SIL down YEARS ago and said "if you let her walk all over you now how do you plan to maintain control when she's 14" Woke her up BIG TIME!
Curious if you are a parent or have raised a three year old?

In raising my two children, I've found there's only so much you can do in a single situation to address behavior. You think you have one issue solved, and then another pops up. I often have to address poor behavior at another point for practical reasons (like no place to do a time-out on an airplane).

Being children, situations that are ordinary to you are brand-new to them and you never know what will cause them to be thrown out of there usual behavior. This dosen't make kicking a seat acceptable, but the only certain remedy is pretty draconian: removing the kid from the airplane.

I'd say that why some people are more dismissive/accepting/understanding of this situation than others. I know some would like children below a certain age banned from airplanes, but that's not the time and place we all live in right now live.
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Last edited by GrnMtnMan; 12-10-2012 at 04:13 PM. Reason: clarify
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:24 PM   #40
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It comes down to what you mean by 'not excusing' the child. My opinion is that 'excusing' or 'holding-accountable' dosen't apply in this situation....the perpetrator (3 Year old) can't comprehend either way.
Three year olds can understand right from wrong for simple matters. Not kicking is pretty simple. And if they don't get it then I would hold the parent accountable for making sure the child didn't continually kick my seat back, if I was the one in front of them. Even if it meant the parent had to fly with their arms holding their child's legs down.

I think your viewpoint that people want children banned from certain things is pretty extreme. I don't know anyone who wants kids banned from flights. And most of us know kids will act up from time to time. However a parent throwing their hands up in the air and saying "She is 3. What can I do?" is not acceptable. You are the parent. You parent. You don't ignore the behavior because your child is 3.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:51 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by maxiesmom

Three year olds can understand right from wrong for simple matters. Not kicking is pretty simple. And if they don't get it then I would hold the parent accountable for making sure the child didn't continually kick my seat back, if I was the one in front of them. Even if it meant the parent had to fly with their arms holding their child's legs down.

I think your viewpoint that people want children banned from certain things is pretty extreme. I don't know anyone who wants kids banned from flights. And most of us know kids will act up from time to time. However a parent throwing their hands up in the air and saying "She is 3. What can I do?" is not acceptable. You are the parent. You parent. You don't ignore the behavior because your child is 3.
+1 your last three posts. And most people know two kicks can turn into that dreadful constant *kick* *kick* *kick*. I thought op was asking for advice to make the next flight different, that turned into "oh she's three, let her kick the child hater in the back". I wouldn't want to see a child's legs being held down, and also wouldn't complain after only two kicks, but I'm also more patient than other people and that shouldn't be the only solution anyway.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:01 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by GrnMtnMan
Quote:

Originally Posted by stitchlovestink

Is that what you suggest?

It's not what I'm suggesting for you, but there are quite a few child-haters out there who think kids shouldn't be allowed to fly...or take a train...or go to the movies, etc., until they can behave impossibly perfectly. Which means families with young children never vacationing...or flying to see sick family members, etc.

And I am seriously suggesting a train for you. Being from Bel-Air, you could catch the Silver Meteor or Silver Star from Wilmington or Baltimore. You'd have a reliably smooth-ish (swaying and the occasional small bump) ride, plus you can get up and walk around quite often, could also get a sleeper room and have complete privacy and no-risk of getting kicked by anybody but your travel companion.

And I'm not accusing you of being kid-hater, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I'm sure some of them are usually decent people outside of a aluminum tube that hurtles through the atmosphere, but they're out there.
Thank you for your suggestion. However without going into details that I really don't feel like I need to share here, train travel is definitely NOT safer for me than airtravel. It is in my best interest to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. And it is Definitely NOT safe for me to attempt to walk on a moving object like a train. I have done so and came very close to having disasterous results. I understand why you would suggest it. But there is so much more to my issue than a straight up 'back problem'.


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Old 12-10-2012, 06:09 PM   #43
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+1 your last three posts. And most people know two kicks can turn into that dreadful constant *kick* *kick* *kick*. I thought op was asking for advice to make the next flight different, that turned into "oh she's three, let her kick the child hater in the back". I wouldn't want to see a child's legs being held down, and also wouldn't complain after only two kicks, but I'm also more patient than other people and that shouldn't be the only solution anyway.
Many good pionts but I didn't see anyone saying seat kicking is ok - even for a 3yo!

Personally I don't think 2 inavertant kicks from a 3y is a big deal; in fact I had two younger school age children behind me playing "slap jack" on their tray table a few months ago. It wasn't pleasant for me but as soon as I nicely pointed it out the kids (and the parents!) they understood the issue and stopped. There was no need for yelling - the kids had no idea they were bothering me until I mentioned it.

My seat has been pushed pulled and slammed into by more adults than children and I fly almost monthly. Never mind the amount of times I am "bopped" in the head by people who forget they are wearing backpacks!!

I see an OP that did stop her child from kicking and is concerned about helping her child get through the trip home. I haven't seen anyone say its ok to kick the seatback?

In regards to the bad back issue - yes I have one and Yes there are lots of things to be wary of when flying but snapping at a baby/toddler becuase they made a mistake doesn't help the situation.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:49 PM   #44
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Three year olds can understand right from wrong for simple matters. Not kicking is pretty simple. And if they don't get it then I would hold the parent accountable for making sure the child didn't continually kick my seat back, if I was the one in front of them. Even if it meant the parent had to fly with their arms holding their child's legs down.

I think your viewpoint that people want children banned from certain things is pretty extreme. I don't know anyone who wants kids banned from flights. And most of us know kids will act up from time to time. However a parent throwing their hands up in the air and saying "She is 3. What can I do?" is not acceptable. You are the parent. You parent. You don't ignore the behavior because your child is 3.
Would you rather listen to them scream for the duration of the flight? Because that's probably what's going to happen if a child is having a tantrum and a mother is holding their legs down.

If you think any mother(or father) wants to deal with a kicking, screaming child then you don't know many mothers. I doubt many ignore the situation..but there is only so much that can be done. When all options are exhausted WHAT do you want the parents to do? I'm sure many parents on her would like some suggestions so that they as well can have a peaceful flight.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:54 PM   #45
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Please don't flame me. My only thought to this is does this child kick the seat while in a car? This could be why they did it on a plane.

I have raised a child (she's 19) and been through the travel craziness. Up until my daughter was 13 she took draminine before flights and when she was younger had her favorite stuffed animal, travel games and coloring books with her to occupy her while on the plane. Several times we were delayed and sat on the plane for 2-3 hours before take off and as long as she was engaged in something she didn't stress or act out. Maybe i was just lucky.
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