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Old 12-11-2012, 07:58 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
Acceptable is one thing. In FORTY states, it's the law (and yes, I know not everyone obeys every law; let's not go there ). Restaurant patrons who disagree with this legal wage should hound their respective state legislators to get the law changed.

What you pay for the food pays for the food. Any tip pays for the person kowtowing to you to whatever degree. Standard service - somebody takes your order, brings your items - deserves a standard tip. Better service earns a better tip.

Knowing what is expected/customary in this country, especially one's own state (or a simple online search for a state one is visiting), "I won't tip because _____" as a general policy is just an excuse. Restaurant patrons who don't want to tip can carry out: the convenience of not cooking combined with the restaurant's food.

Not every server makes "way more an hour than...". If every patron had the same opinion (my friends say) and tipped only what they felt, eventually there'd be no more servers.
Then restaurants would have to pay a higher wage to keep the employees, as it should be.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:35 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by okeydokey View Post
Then restaurants would have to pay a higher wage to keep the employees, as it should be.

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Old 12-11-2012, 08:49 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by okeydokey

Then restaurants would have to pay a higher wage to keep the employees, as it should be.
But they don't and they dont have to. What's the solution? Raise the prices 18% and no tip?
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:14 AM   #109
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But they don't and they dont have to. What's the solution? Raise the prices 18% and no tip?

You raise the prices to cover the normal minimum wage and alllow customers to tip for the reasons tipping was created.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:18 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by declansdad View Post
You raise the prices to cover the normal minimum wage and alllow customers to tip for the reasons tipping was created.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:26 PM   #111
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You raise the prices to cover the normal minimum wage and alllow customers to tip for the reasons tipping was created.
That increase would be much greater than the 18% assumed in a previous post. It would need to cover the tip-out personnel as well.

It would also need to cover additional payroll taxes, social security (employer's and employee's share), ditto for medicare, FUTA, SUTA, benefits for full-time servers, probably additional office help...
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:57 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
That increase would be much greater than the 18% assumed in a previous post. It would need to cover the tip-out personnel as well.

It would also need to cover additional payroll taxes, social security (employer's and employee's share), ditto for medicare, FUTA, SUTA, benefits for full-time servers, probably additional office help...

I just compared restaurants that exist in both Canada and the US and that wouldn't need to happen to bring the prices in line. We have a subsantially higher minimum wage with comparable prices to the US. If it can be done here I'm sure you could do it there.

Why would you need more office staff?
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:50 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by declansdad View Post
I just compared restaurants that exist in both Canada and the US and that wouldn't need to happen to bring the prices in line. We have a subsantially higher minimum wage with comparable prices to the US. If it can be done here I'm sure you could do it there.

Why would you need more office staff?
More accounting = more work = probably additional employee/s.

If you owned a business with $X annual revenue, how happy would you be to lose a noticeable percentage of that toward wages, taxes, and other employee costs? Payroll is 20 to 25 percent of the cost of running a restaurant in the United States. Chains base sales goals and expected profits on local conditions. The Ten Dollar Restaurant in Boston is expected to return a higher profit than The Ten Dollar Place in Toronto - because the servers in Toronto get paid four or so times as much per hour as those in the Boston location.

It's (much) worse for the independents - who make up the majority. It's their living.

As long as tipping is customary in this country and the service isn't horrible, people should tip.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:55 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
That increase would be much greater than the 18% assumed in a previous post. It would need to cover the tip-out personnel as well.

It would also need to cover additional payroll taxes, social security (employer's and employee's share), ditto for medicare, FUTA, SUTA, benefits for full-time servers, probably additional office help...
Sorry katyiee... not buying it. If the current "customary" tip now is 18-20% and that covers the tip out folks, and the taxes the servers have to pay on the tips, it should cover if you add it to the prices.

As far as benefits, a) a company doesn't need to pay them, they're not required, and b) if the company does offer benefits to full timers now, that's already factored into their costs. Increasing pay doesn't increase benefit costs (unless there's some kind of 401K matching or something).

Current minimum wage is $7.25. If servers are making $2.13, that means they need $5.12/hour more. Assuming a $15/person/meal currently (average), two meals in an hour (the $15 meal would now be $18) would cover the increase.

In theory, patrons would pay the same amount. The only difference is the money goes to the restaurant and the restaurant pays the waitstaff.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:18 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
More accounting = more work = probably additional employee/s.

If you owned a business with $X annual revenue, how happy would you be to lose a noticeable percentage of that toward wages, taxes, and other employee costs? Payroll is 20 to 25 percent of the cost of running a restaurant in the United States. Chains base sales goals and expected profits on local conditions. The Ten Dollar Restaurant in Boston is expected to return a higher profit than The Ten Dollar Place in Toronto - because the servers in Toronto get paid four or so times as much per hour as those in the Boston location.

It's (much) worse for the independents - who make up the majority. It's their living.

As long as tipping is customary in this country and the service isn't horrible, people should tip.

The accounting changes would be minimal and with competurized accounting packages, it wouldn't be an issue at all. There would be no need for additional employees, there is no more work being created.

I'm fairly certain the expected returns would be almost identical in those restaurants that you used.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:46 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by declansdad

I just compared restaurants that exist in both Canada and the US and that wouldn't need to happen to bring the prices in line. We have a subsantially higher minimum wage with comparable prices to the US. If it can be done here I'm sure you could do it there.

Why would you need more office staff?
Restaurants end up charging what the customers will bear, that likely explains the price similarity.

My brother has a pasta restaurant in Canada. He sells pasta and seafood. His margin is much higher on the pasta than the scallops, because patrons will find it acceptable to spend 20$ on pasta but will not go much above 30$ for an entree. The pasta might cost only a few bucks due to volume (it's a pasta restaurant!), the scallops 20$. My point is that sales price are only loosely related to cost for business.

Also in Canada we have lower taxes on business (federal income tax rate in Canada is about 50% of what it is in the US) but higher personal income taxes and sales taxes in most provinces. Hence business can afford to pay more to employees who have then to give back part of what they earn to the government. Just a different tax structure.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:45 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by declansdad View Post
You raise the prices to cover the normal minimum wage and alllow customers to tip for the reasons tipping was created.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_gordon View Post
Which would give non-tippers the perfect excuse to never tip anything.

This will drive down the quality of wait-people across the board.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:54 AM   #118
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Which would give non-tippers the perfect excuse to never tip anything.

This will drive down the quality of wait-people across the board.
So if you don't get a bonus (tip), your work quality drops?

Many restaurants automatically add 18% on parties of six or more. Wouldn't that be a reason for people not to tip? Does the quality of the wait-staff serving these larger groups drop?
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:06 AM   #119
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Which would give non-tippers the perfect excuse to never tip anything.

This will drive down the quality of wait-people across the board.

Personally I have found more people are willing to tip when they are not forced too.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:14 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okw2012 View Post
Restaurants end up charging what the customers will bear, that likely explains the price similarity.

My brother has a pasta restaurant in Canada. He sells pasta and seafood. His margin is much higher on the pasta than the scallops, because patrons will find it acceptable to spend 20$ on pasta but will not go much above 30$ for an entree. The pasta might cost only a few bucks due to volume (it's a pasta restaurant!), the scallops 20$. My point is that sales price are only loosely related to cost for business.

Also in Canada we have lower taxes on business (federal income tax rate in Canada is about 50% of what it is in the US) but higher personal income taxes and sales taxes in most provinces. Hence business can afford to pay more to employees who have then to give back part of what they earn to the government. Just a different tax structure.

It is very difficult to compare tax structures between countries. You may be able to look at the stated rates but there are so many other variables about how they are applied a true comparison is very complex. I would aslo say that sale prices are closely not loosely tied to costs.

That being said you could still eliminate the two-tiered wage structure without drastically increasing the costs to the customers or hurting the profitability of the restaurant. A two-tiered structure doesn nothing but punish the server and the customer.
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