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Old 11-24-2012, 09:00 AM   #121
donaldlovesdaisy
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
Bottom line, a company is not responsible for making sure you can support yourself or your family. They are responsible for making sure they pay you for the work you do for them. You are a stock clerk or cashier, you are worth minimum wage to a company, you want more money do something for yourself to make yourself worth more. (as opposed to sitting around doing nothing but whining how its not fair)
Is it great that some companies pay more to their employees, sure but that doesn't make those who don't "evil".
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:21 AM   #122
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I don't understand what you mean the flaws are or how what I said was elitist; we seem to materially agree. I said these jobs aren't entry-level - I was responding to someone in the thread who had said that.

I agree people work minimum-wage jobs as their jobs for years and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that; the jobs need to be filled, everyone in the world not only can't be an executive, plenty don't want to be.

However, we do disagree on Walmart. I think they're absolutely evil - the mistreatment of employees (both overt [see the various lawsuits regarding pay, advancement discrepancies, osha and other violations, etc.] and covert [in the limiting hours, paying as little as possible, not subsidizing benefits the way they could, etc.]), the well-established methods for putting small manufacturers and small businesses out of business, etc. I won't shop there and I'm glad my city has kept them out.
Mayor Bloomberg has said he wouldn't disagree with having Walmarts in NYC. You do realize that there aren't many things that a city can do to keep a retailer out, if they really wanted to be there? All of this came up when Mumbles Menino (whose heart was in the right place -- he just spoke as a knee-jerk) told Chik-Fil-A that they couldn't come to Boston. Corporations that purchase land legally and follow zoning regulations cannot be be restrained from operating their business just because a group of people doesn't agree with their business model.

I'm curious, if you had been around when Ford was first making cars, would you have boycotted them? They were putting everyone with a horse-and-buggy out of business! And everyone who has a laser printer on their desk has practically killed the corner print shop. Kindles and e-readers are literally closing traditional book binders as I write this.

I will shop a locally-owned shop if they have something that I need, something that interests me, or something I can't get somewhere else. But it isn't my responsibility to keep their business open and if they can't compete, maybe they need to either change or try something else.

And since Walmart is the most successful retailer in the US (and six of the Walton heirs are in the Top 12 US billionaires list), apparently others agree with me.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:29 AM   #123
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Not in New Jersey!
It is nationally, which is where the discussion was at that point.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:35 AM   #124
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I was at a Walmart last week and heard an employee complaining that they worked him too much. He was afraid he would make over his $14k limit and not be able to collect his social security. Not sure if he was talking about disability benefits or social security. Really? Why not just make more money by working?
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:38 AM   #125
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But many people do have to support a family on that. It's a fact. $15 / hour would not support a family anyway. It's still poverty.
It's not the fault of WalMart that some people have no upward mobility. My wife worked there in high school. She moved on to bigger and better things a long time ago. She's since voluntarily stepped back to a seasonal job as a clerk at my daughters' school. It's 10x more difficult than anything she ever did at WalMart. There's no insurance, and the hourly wage is less than WalMart. Is the school "evil"?
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:55 AM   #126
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Wow...you sound like an elitist. There are flaws in your logic: While it used to be the norm where you start at an entry-level position, work for a company for X number of years, and you eventually move up the ladder (I know McDonalds does this and John Lassiter is a great example at Disney), most employers expect an employee to better themselves in order to move up now. Get a degree or two, make lateral moves to position yourself better, etc.

Gone are the days that people work for one company for the entirety of their lives...yet many people who still work with that notion that they should. I am a teacher and most of our bus drivers are making marginally more than minimum wage and more than half of them have been driving at our school for over 20 years.

I work in a technical school and I teach my students that there is honor in any job. My students are often the first of several generations in their families to seek an education and maintain employment. When the kids see the rewards of earning their own money and being a productive member of society, they are proud. It means they aren't simply cashing a welfare check or selling drugs or worse. And more often than not, they will get their relatives to go out and get a job, too...usually at Walmart. How can it be evil that a company will hire a 3rd generation welfare recipient with no skills, and give that person a paycheck?

I shop at Walmart, for the above reason, for their generous philanthropy, and the fact that I can get great prices on everything I need. I don't think they are evil at all. They are capitalism in its purist form -- and I agree with them.
Great post. IMO, I don't think some understand the value that "being employed" carries for those who do not have employed adults as role models. I read a great article in the Boston Globe a year or so about how teens that had been receiving SSDI for being ADHD could not work, even though they truly wished to do so, because a job would decrease their SSDI checks which their parents received for their disability.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:04 AM   #127
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I'd rather pay a little more, consume a little less, and see less people struggling. I know that is an unpopular viewpoint but it is mine.

We consume way too much as a society. And people who consume too much spend too much $$ they really cannot afford to spend and get very anxious over paying a few pennies more.

This, in turn, causes them to take it out on the lower level retail workers and instead of advocating for their fellow man, they want to keep their wages down so they can save a few pennies on their dvds, plastic toys, or whatever other garbage they like to buy.
YOu don't know that the people who consume too much can't afford it, some can some can't. We need to to consume to stimulate the economy. If you want to make a better wage, then better yourself, I don't want to live in a society that you describe. If you work hard, you should be able to play hard.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:23 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Tink-aholic View Post
Wow...you sound like an elitist. There are flaws in your logic: While it used to be the norm where you start at an entry-level position, work for a company for X number of years, and you eventually move up the ladder (I know McDonalds does this and John Lassiter is a great example at Disney), most employers expect an employee to better themselves in order to move up now. Get a degree or two, make lateral moves to position yourself better, etc.

Gone are the days that people work for one company for the entirety of their lives...yet many people who still work with that notion that they should. I am a teacher and most of our bus drivers are making marginally more than minimum wage and more than half of them have been driving at our school for over 20 years.

I work in a technical school and I teach my students that there is honor in any job. My students are often the first of several generations in their families to seek an education and maintain employment. When the kids see the rewards of earning their own money and being a productive member of society, they are proud. It means they aren't simply cashing a welfare check or selling drugs or worse. And more often than not, they will get their relatives to go out and get a job, too...usually at Walmart. How can it be evil that a company will hire a 3rd generation welfare recipient with no skills, and give that person a paycheck?

I shop at Walmart, for the above reason, for their generous philanthropy, and the fact that I can get great prices on everything I need. I don't think they are evil at all. They are capitalism in its purist form -- and I agree with them.

1. It doesn't matter if you change companies or if you stay with one company, the ratio of lowest worker bee to higher worker bee is still the same. This means that some worker bees will always be at the bottom rung.

2. Walmart's employment is structured so that they will NOT have to pay benefits and so that their workers cannot go past part-time. In contrast, the drug dealers I've known had a much, much better pay/work structure and much better employment terms. (Still no benefits, but you CAN generally work full time.) Why on earth, given those facts, would kids from an environment where drug dealing is considered just another occupation, choose Walmart over drug dealing, especially if they can find a selling territory where the risk of being caught is low or where if they are caught they serve time in a local jail?

3. While we're on that topic, Walmart does NOT and WILL NOT schedule around college students' schedules. So how exactly, are these hardworking, upwardly mobile Walmart employees supposed to take classes?

4. Walmart's goods are cheaply made, often by slaves, sometimes by kids, sometimes by child slaves: that's why your prices are good. Personally, that, in and of itself, gives me the heebie jeebies. They're not followers in this practice, they're trailblazers.

5. Walmart's philanthropy costs far, far less than it would cost them to make their wokers full-time employees.

6. Speaking of your post, what the heck do you mean by "they are capitalism in its purist form?" Do you mean Laissez-Faire or Free Market Capitalism?
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:37 AM   #129
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Great post. IMO, I don't think some understand the value that "being employed" carries for those who do not have employed adults as role models. I read a great article in the Boston Globe a year or so about how teens that had been receiving SSDI for being ADHD could not work, even though they truly wished to do so, because a job would decrease their SSDI checks which their parents received for their disability.
Hard to imagine a teen with no work history qualifying for SSDI. There are work incentive programs to get SSI and SSDI beneficiaries back into the work force without jeopardizing their health insurance benefits.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:40 AM   #130
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Actually I asked why would someone START a family if they were working an entry level job.
You might want to ask a lot of military and former military that question.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:49 AM   #131
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I'd rather pay a little more, consume a little less, and see less people struggling. I know that is an unpopular viewpoint but it is mine.

We consume way too much as a society. And people who consume too much spend too much $$ they really cannot afford to spend and get very anxious over paying a few pennies more.

This, in turn, causes them to take it out on the lower level retail workers and instead of advocating for their fellow man, they want to keep their wages down so they can save a few pennies on their dvds, plastic toys, or whatever other garbage they like to buy.


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Old 11-24-2012, 11:51 AM   #132
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Hard to imagine a teen with no work history qualifying for SSDI. There are work incentive programs to get SSI and SSDI beneficiaries back into the work force without jeopardizing their health insurance benefits.
Sorry, meant to type SSI. Not sure if this is the same article I read previously, but it does reference the ADHD diagnosis for SSI.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas..._side_effects/

ADHD children rarely qualify for the SSI benefits once they are adults.

Last edited by foreUT; 11-24-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:16 PM   #133
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I know of a few college grads who aren't making that right now so I am not sure why a Wal-Mart employee who has little to no lucrative skills things they should be making that.
And, new law-school grads/attorneys working contract only make a little more than that. Plus, for many firms, the small health-care benefits they used to provide with the contract positions will be gone next year.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:57 PM   #134
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And, new law-school grads/attorneys working contract only make a little more than that. Plus, for many firms, the small health-care benefits they used to provide with the contract positions will be gone next year.
Market saturation on attorneys. Way too many of them out there. I would never encourage my child to become an attorney. Kind of like a person graduating with a degree in poetry, jobs just aren't going to happen.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:40 PM   #135
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Market saturation on attorneys. Way too many of them out there. I would never encourage my child to become an attorney. Kind of like a person graduating with a degree in poetry, jobs just aren't going to happen.
And, there is even more "market saturation" on the number of individuals who could compete for the WM jobs. Wages will always be relative to the competition for available positions.
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