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Old 11-16-2012, 12:41 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.
I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by castleview View Post
No genius, that's not the case. There are plenty of business owners who realize they have to treat their employees well in order to sleep at night and run a successful business. I worked for a man who dipped into his own personal savings account to cover salaries when times were hard (and the company did come through).

If you honestly think it's okay for someone to pull in millions as a CEO while the lowest paid employee is paid minimum wage, has temporary or "independent contractor" status, doesn't get any benefits or rights as a worker, then you need to grow a conscience. That IS greed.
You seem so fixated on the Corporate Greed angle. I suspect you want to regulate salaries and earnings. I do wonder whether you own or have ever owned a business as perhaps you would have some perspective before rushing to the Corporate Greed excuse.

The end result here is that the company was failing on every level and for multiple reasons was unable to compete. Existing or new companies will fill the void.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:43 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:44 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by JennaDeeDooDah View Post
See, that's the problem with how we all think. If we were truly honest with ourselves, we would admit that everyone out there really is "greedy" because everyone out there wants to turn a profit or make more money. If you honestly disagree, ask yourself if you are willing to make enough money to pay rent (not mortgage because there is no need to own if you aren't investing or wanting to turn a profit) and bills. And by bills, I mean electricity and water; cable and phone are just excessive and not required to live. See, everyone is "greedy" to some extent. There's really nothing wrong with that, either. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have money to buy yourself the luxuries in life. The problem is, people like to point the finger at how certain people are greedy, all the while ignoring their own greed. For example, I have a friend who complains about businesses hiring outside the country and how they do it because it is cheaper for them and that is wrong and greedy. I asked him if he would be willing to absorb some of the additional cost that the businesses would acquire by moving their companies back to the USA. He said absolutely not. He does not want the prices to go up because he spends enough money as is. The company owner should absorb all the cost. The owner pushing the cost down to the American people can be considered greedy, but so can the American consumer who says that he shouldn't have to pay more.


Point is, everyone out there wants to make money.
^^^ We choose to buy the cheap Chinese product instead of paying more for the domestically made item, and then stand back and call the company the bad guy for not hiring American workers. Hypocrisy at its finest.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:46 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Christine View Post
I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:49 PM   #96
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^^^ We choose to buy the cheap Chinese product instead of paying more for the domestically made item, and then stand back and call the company the bad guy for not hiring American workers. Hypocrisy at its finest.
YEP!
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:50 PM   #97
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Anyone else notice the humor in us debating about large corporate companies that are out to make money and the lower level workers who are paid very little all while on a message board dedicated to people who absolutely love Walt Disney World?
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:51 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by castleview View Post
Nobody chooses to temp for as long as people are temping these days.

100% WRONG. I know many people who do this and would not take a full time job.


Independent contractors are just an excuse for a business to not pay insurance or social security on an employee.

The Independent contractor is getting paid by a 1099. There are tax advantages to doing this. I won't bother to educate you on them as you seem to know everything.

No company is required to keep employees at minimum wage either. If you have the means to do so, then you can pay that person more.

True. I worked for a union that decided if and how much more I could make. I made more by leaving the union.

I do agree that "that is life in the corporate world" but I don't find it acceptable.

I agree that executive pay and pay structure needs to be changed. It is just as outdated as the union model.

Those same corporations get huge tax breaks and subsidies whenever they threaten to leave an area. If you support that they can take all the money was some don't get livable wages, then you support greed.

I have lived where those threats were made and the breaks and subsidies not accepted. Guess what happen...............the company did leave.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:52 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
I support companies staying in business and as long as they aren't breaking any laws doing it then
I also support anyone bettering their position themself. If they don't like seeing John Smith run a the company they work for and get paid a million to do it, then go to college get yourself a higher degree and become a CEO of your own company. Cry your river somewhere else........ We all have the same opportunity to become successful, we don't need to watch others do it and call them greedy and uncaring because they did and we didn't.
Who said anyone is watching? There are plenty of business owners that do take pride in how they run their company and treat their employees. Why is it "crying a river" because people find companies that treat employees like dirt despicable? Are you okay with that?
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:53 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
^^^ We choose to buy the cheap Chinese product instead of paying more for the domestically made item, and then stand back and call the company the bad guy for not hiring American workers. Hypocrisy at its finest.


Demand will always affect supply more than the other way around when it comes to consumer goods. If the American public refused to buy cheap imported goods and those goods sat unsold on shelves while the higher priced American made goods next to them flew off in record numbers those are the goods that would be supplied.

There are certain items I gladly pay more for because they are locally made and others that I don't care and want the cheapest item I can get. It just depends on what it is I'm buying but in the end I am the one who is control of that choice, the corporations are just responding to it.

And again since it keeps coming up, the executives are not the business owners of publicly traded companies unless they are personally the majority share holder. Many have some stock so they are part owners just as many of us are if we have their stock or a 401K containing it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by ilovemk76 View Post

I have lived where those threats were made and the breaks and subsidies not accepted. Guess what happen...............the company did leave.
So an employee with a high school education chooses to work as an independent contractor? I don't think so. My state just kept Linda McMahon from becoming a senator and one of the biggest gripes was that her wrestlers in the WWE were paid as independent contractors even though it's a physically taxing job.

As for the companies that did leave, they probably had no intention of staying. They were just trying to put the onus on someone else and some people still fall for that.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:56 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by JennaDeeDooDah View Post
See, that's the problem with how we all think. If we were truly honest with ourselves, we would admit that everyone out there really is "greedy" because everyone out there wants to turn a profit or make more money. If you honestly disagree, ask yourself if you are willing to make enough money to pay rent (not mortgage because there is no need to own if you aren't investing or wanting to turn a profit) and bills. And by bills, I mean electricity and water; cable and phone are just excessive and not required to live. See, everyone is "greedy" to some extent. There's really nothing wrong with that, either. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have money to buy yourself the luxuries in life. The problem is, people like to point the finger at how certain people are greedy, all the while ignoring their own greed. For example, I have a friend who complains about businesses hiring outside the country and how they do it because it is cheaper for them and that is wrong and greedy. I asked him if he would be willing to absorb some of the additional cost that the businesses would acquire by moving their companies back to the USA. He said absolutely not. He does not want the prices to go up because he spends enough money as is. The company owner should absorb all the cost. The owner pushing the cost down to the American people can be considered greedy, but so can the American consumer who says that he shouldn't have to pay more.


Point is, everyone out there wants to make money.


DH and I always look at where an item is made. We do try to buy American. We have recently found more items that are being made here. We hope this is a trend that continues.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by ilovemk76 View Post


DH and I always look at where an item is made. We do try to buy American. We have recently found more items that are being made here. We hope this is a trend that continues.
As do we…the biggest shock is that much of what is sold at Army/Navy stores is not made here. It lowered our selection.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Christine View Post
I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.
To be fair, I don't think anyone is saying that low skilled workers "don't deserve much", at least I'm not. They deserve what the pay scale for their job is, and compared to top execs that is a very low number. (when comparing minimum wage with the 6 or 7 figure salaries).
If a person feels they aren't being compensated fairly for the job, then find a job where you will be. Or do something for yourself so that your skill level and your pay scale go up.
Or better yet, buy stock in that greedy corp so that you can profit from their "greed" too.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #105
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While you don't like to see people lose their jobs, sometimes they have no one but themselves to blame for that. As a company, Hostess was in trouble. The union workers knew that, but instead of working with Hostess to try and work out a deal that would help keep Hostess open and keep people in jobs, they didn't so now there are no jobs, instead of a number of jobs at a lesser wage.

I just don't get why people have a hard time understanding, a little of something is a whole lot better than nothing.
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Doesn't make a lot of sense. From a practical standpoint however, $1 an hour for 18,000 people is a lot more expensive than a 300% raise for the boss. Not arguing right or wrong, just trying to put it in perspective.

And if liquidation was indeed the company's plans all along, I still say the unions shot themselves in the foot by standing firm. At this point, it matter not if they trusted Hostess or thought they'd get robbed again down the road. If you're on a sinking ship, and you know it's sinking, you can try your hardest to keep it afloat long enough for a lifeboat to come by. Or, you can jump into shark infested waters and swim for it. Personally, I'm afraid of sharks.
Union played Chicken...Union lost!
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