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Old 11-16-2012, 01:18 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Princess Dolly View Post
Yes it's sad that the rank and file workers bear all of the burden while the executives live high off the hog. Sad that corporations are so greedy and uncaring.
Let's be fair. Everyone is "greedy" because everyone wants to make money. Now, in this specific situation, Hostess told the Union workers that they (Hostess) could no longer contribute 2% towards their (the union) retirement and that the union would need to pick up that tab. They told the union that if they (Hostess) continued to contribute that amount, it would put them out of business. The union refused to budge and now EVERYONE is out of a job. In this specific situation, it sounds like the union was greedy and uncaring.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:20 PM   #77
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No genius, that's not the case. There are plenty of business owners who realize they have to treat their employees well in order to sleep at night and run a successful business. I worked for a man who dipped into his own personal savings account to cover salaries when times were hard (and the company did come through).

If you honestly think it's okay for someone to pull in millions as a CEO while the lowest paid employee is paid minimum wage, has temporary or "independent contractor" status, doesn't get any benefits or rights as a worker, then you need to grow a conscience. That IS greed.
But the CEO isn't the business owner, they are just employees like everyone else. The stock holders are the business owners. If someone is to be blamed for the pay structure of the executives blame them and the board that is supposed to be representing their best interests but often doesn't.

I always hear about CEOs giving themselves raises but I have never worked for a company in which management was able to determine their own raise or pay structure. It is always a negotiation between the board and the executive. That would be congress.

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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
That is life in the corporate world, we aren't all equal.
And thank God! Employment, like everything, comes down to supply and demand. If you can supply needed skills better than most other people you can demand a higher price for them. If you can only supply a skill that is essentially a commodity you can not demand as high of a price for them. That isn't a problem, it is how it should work. Luckily we can all learn new skills to change what we can both supply and demand. That is what I love about the free market even though it doesn't always work perfectly. Then again nothing works perfectly 100% of the time.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:21 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by donaldlovesdaisy View Post
If the lowest paid employee had very little skill or education then why should he be paid more than what they are worth?
I do believe there is something to this as well. Fact is, some jobs are just plain easy. One issue I have with unions is that the easiest jobs go to the most experienced workers. The idea of staying in a BIG company for a LONG time is that you should start out at a low-pay, low-skill job. Over time, as your skill increases, you move into a more difficult job with higher pay. And as more time passes, hopefully you repeat this process. But, because union wages often pay the same across the board, it works in the opposite direction. New hires are given the most difficult tasks, while seasoned veterans use their seniority to work their way DOWN the corporate ladder. That system benefits nobody. The company loses because they don't have the benefit of their best people doing the toughest jobs, and the workers lose because you don't have the opportunity to really work your way UP. Obviously, this is speaking in general terms & it doesn't work that way EVERYWHERE the unions exist. But, it does happen.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:24 PM   #79
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I agree. My point is that some posters wanted workers to take concessions so the company survives, which is socialism. The company decided to shutdown instead, which points toward Capitalism (best for the company). I just want people to realize what they are advocating.
I am so glad that you helped me see the light!!!!!

I use my brain to decide what will be best in the short run and the long run. I would have made a short term concession with the company and then decided it this was a company that was viable in the long run, if I it was a company I could work for in the long run and then look for another job, if that is best.

It is better to find another job when you have a job then when you are unemployed. The longer the unemployment the less employable you become.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:28 PM   #80
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No one said they should get equal pay, but they should be paid something livable. And while they may not be worth as much as a top level executive, they are part of what makes the company successful too…so yes, they should be rewarded.
That isn't what you said though, this is what you said
Quote:
If you honestly think it's okay for someone to pull in millions as a CEO while the lowest paid employee is paid minimum wage, has temporary or "independent contractor" status, doesn't get any benefits or rights as a worker, then you need to grow a conscience. That IS greed.
If the problem is they are making minimum wage, and they can't live on it, take it up with the legislators. If a person agrees to take a job as a temp, or work as an IC then blame them not the company. They are the ones agreeing to those conditions.
Yes I think its okay for a CEO to pull in millions while some workers in that same company make minimum wage, or while some are just temps or ICs. Its not greed, it is life in the corporate world.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:30 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
I do believe there is something to this as well. Fact is, some jobs are just plain easy. One issue I have with unions is that the easiest jobs go to the most experienced workers. The idea of staying in a BIG company for a LONG time is that you should start out at a low-pay, low-skill job. Over time, as your skill increases, you move into a more difficult job with higher pay. And as more time passes, hopefully you repeat this process. But, because union wages often pay the same across the board, it works in the opposite direction. New hires are given the most difficult tasks, while seasoned veterans use their seniority to work their way DOWN the corporate ladder. That system benefits nobody. The company loses because they don't have the benefit of their best people doing the toughest jobs, and the workers lose because you don't have the opportunity to really work your way UP. Obviously, this is speaking in general terms & it doesn't work that way EVERYWHERE the unions exist. But, it does happen.
I can see the issue with unions keeping everything uncompetitive, but I also think businesses play a part in this too. Few businesses want to pay for on the job training anymore which is bad for the company and the country.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:32 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post

If the problem is they are making minimum wage, and they can't live on it, take it up with the legislators. If a person agrees to take a job as a temp, or work as an IC then blame them not the company. They are the ones agreeing to those conditions.
Yes I think its okay for a CEO to pull in millions while some workers in that same company make minimum wage, or while some are just temps or ICs. Its not greed, it is life in the corporate world.
Here's where I disagree, but only partly. I do believe it's greed. OTOH, I believe greed is a 2-way street and that those at the bottom of the wage scale are as guilty of it as those at the top. They're just in less of a position to be able to use their greed to their advantage.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:33 PM   #83
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I can see the issue with unions keeping everything uncompetitive, but I also think businesses play a part in this too. Few businesses want to pay for on the job training anymore which is bad for the company and the country.
No doubt about it, there's plenty of blame to go around. I just think far too many companies AND unions are stuck in a 1940's frame of mind.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:35 PM   #84
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That isn't what you said though, this is what you said

Okay, how you tied those two in, I don't know. Never did I say they should make what the CEO does.

If the problem is they are making minimum wage, and they can't live on it, take it up with the legislators. If a person agrees to take a job as a temp, or work as an IC then blame them not the company. They are the ones agreeing to those conditions.
Yes I think its okay for a CEO to pull in millions while some workers in that same company make minimum wage, or while some are just temps or ICs. Its not greed, it is life in the corporate world.
Nobody chooses to temp for as long as people are temping these days. Independent contractors are just an excuse for a business to not pay insurance or social security on an employee. No company is required to keep employees at minimum wage either. If you have the means to do so, then you can pay that person more. I do agree that "that is life in the corporate world" but I don't find it acceptable. Those same corporations get huge tax breaks and subsidies whenever they threaten to leave an area. If you support that they can take all the money was some don't get livable wages, then you support greed.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:36 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
Here's where I disagree, but only partly. I do believe it's greed. OTOH, I believe greed is a 2-way street and that those at the bottom of the wage scale are as guilty of it as those at the top. They're just in less of a position to be able to use their greed to their advantage.
Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:37 PM   #86
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Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
Here's where I disagree, but only partly. I do believe it's greed. OTOH, I believe greed is a 2-way street and that those at the bottom of the wage scale are as guilty of it as those at the top. They're just in less of a position to be able to use their greed to their advantage.
See, that's the problem with how we all think. If we were truly honest with ourselves, we would admit that everyone out there really is "greedy" because everyone out there wants to turn a profit or make more money. If you honestly disagree, ask yourself if you are willing to make enough money to pay rent (not mortgage because there is no need to own if you aren't investing or wanting to turn a profit) and bills. And by bills, I mean electricity and water; cable and phone are just excessive and not required to live. See, everyone is "greedy" to some extent. There's really nothing wrong with that, either. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have money to buy yourself the luxuries in life. The problem is, people like to point the finger at how certain people are greedy, all the while ignoring their own greed. For example, I have a friend who complains about businesses hiring outside the country and how they do it because it is cheaper for them and that is wrong and greedy. I asked him if he would be willing to absorb some of the additional cost that the businesses would acquire by moving their companies back to the USA. He said absolutely not. He does not want the prices to go up because he spends enough money as is. The company owner should absorb all the cost. The owner pushing the cost down to the American people can be considered greedy, but so can the American consumer who says that he shouldn't have to pay more.


Point is, everyone out there wants to make money.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:39 PM   #88
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I don't feel they were either. I totally believe that a lot of the hate and rage many people have for the wealthy has a little to do with jealously especially when those people who are expressing their disgust for the wealthy use phrases like "it's not fair" . I wasn't saying this about any poster on here just Americans in general. I am not sure why you are so worked up about my observation/opinion.
I'm no fan of class warfare and have no love for those who cry it's not fair either. But corporations are not innocent in this. For years, they have used the excuse that "it's hard to do business here" and exploited it by outsourcing, downsizing, and just not growing as a company…which in effect, doesn't grow our economy. We should all strive to be wealthy but not get there by making it impossible for other people to move ahead…that doesn't mean make it easy; just don't make it impossible. And hiring an employee on hourly basis with no guarantee he is coming back tomorrow and expecting him to work as many hours as you see fit without any incentive is not right.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:41 PM   #89
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Nobody chooses to temp for as long as people are temping these days. Independent contractors are just an excuse for a business to not pay insurance or social security on an employee. No company is required to keep employees at minimum wage either. If you have the means to do so, then you can pay that person more. I do agree that "that is life in the corporate world" but I don't find it acceptable. Those same corporations get huge tax breaks and subsidies whenever they threaten to leave an area. If you support that they can take all the money was some don't get livable wages, then you support greed.
I support companies staying in business and as long as they aren't breaking any laws doing it then
I also support anyone bettering their position themself. If they don't like seeing John Smith run a the company they work for and get paid a million to do it, then go to college get yourself a higher degree and become a CEO of your own company. Cry your river somewhere else........ We all have the same opportunity to become successful, we don't need to watch others do it and call them greedy and uncaring because they did and we didn't.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:41 PM   #90
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Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.
Good to hear, but you saw it a few months ago when billionaires were freaking out about teachers making $60,000 a year.
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