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Old 11-16-2012, 02:13 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Princess Dolly View Post
I don't think it's quite that simple. I think it gave the hedge funds an excuse to liquidate the company without looking like the bad guys. The end game was always liquidation.
Gosh, does that ever sound familiar.




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I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.

You said a mouthful and I agree with every word!
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:17 PM   #137
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I started looking at more articles after I posted the question - but their pension funding was interesting - it quotes the fortune magazine article some had elluded to. I had no idea that some pensions are backed by multiple employers.

http://moneymorning.com/2012/11/16/h...ension-crisis/

"The biggest issue is that Hostess' union pension funds are underfunded by $2 billion. Under its agreements with the unions, Hostess is required to contribute to multi-employer pension plans (MEPPs). MEPPs provide pension benefits to workers within a particular trade, regardless of what company they work for. The concept was that all companies employing workers in a particular trade would contribute to the trade pension fund so that workers would not lose their pension benefits if they changed employers.

Fortune writes, "Trouble with MEPPs is, if some employers go out of business, the remaining companies have to pick up the shortfall in funding benefits. When there are too few employers left standing, the fund is in trouble...A third of the 40 MEPPs to which Hostess contributes are among the most underfunded plans in the country."

With Hostess gone, all of the remaining companies contributing to the MEPPs serving Hostess employees will now have to pick up the slack left by Hostess. "
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:28 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Christine View Post
I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.
Just to be clear, I don't know that anyone is specifically suggesting the bakers' union members were low skill or overpaid. Frankly, I don't know anything about those specific jobs or what the pay was.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #139
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And go where, exactly?

Not just talking to you, luvmy3 but I see this so many times in these types of threads. "If you don't like the working conditions, find another job". There are no other jobs.
There may not be other jobs 5 minutes from your house, next to mom, in your hometown, in your state or on your coast but there are other jobs.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:38 PM   #140
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No, I'd say it's half full because I believe people can be good and do the right thing. You, on the hand, seem to think it's natural for people to be devious and uncaring. So I'd say you're the one who is a little pessimistic.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:39 PM   #141
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And when hostess starts a new company, with a new name, and hires workers at half the pay with no benefits, I will never buy a product from them.
It would be different if CEO's all made wage and benefit cuts too.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:46 PM   #142
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And when hostess starts a new company, with a new name, and hires workers at half the pay with no benefits, I will never buy a product from them.
It would be different if CEO's all made wage and benefit cuts too.
But plenty of people will! I know I will just to spite those who won't!
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:46 PM   #143
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And when hostess starts a new company, with a new name, and hires workers at half the pay with no benefits, I will never buy a product from them.
It would be different if CEO's all made wage and benefit cuts too.
Sure you will.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:57 PM   #144
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Have they or will the employees lose their pension balances? I assume they had a cash value of their existing pensions.
I don't know for sure. I strongly suspect the pensions are controled by the union, not Hostess.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:09 PM   #145
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This is totally off topic, but why was the wrestlers being independent contractors a problem? It is a physically taxing job but most would rather be independent contractors at least until they get a big contract because they are free to jump from organization to organization.
Because the WWE has become full out entertainment, lots of dangerous "stunts" along with the wrestling are the norm. (You might remember Owen Hart falling to his death during an entrance from the rafters). Top that off with the amount of concussions and steroid related health issues that stem from wrestling, many ex-wrestlers are in poor health. Since many go into it very young, naive and desperate to make a living, they go for it. Part of Linda's platform was improving health care and her history at her company (which a lot of people had trouble with just for the turn they took years ago) made everyone a little skeptical of what she was saying.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #146
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Because the WWE has become full out entertainment, lots of dangerous "stunts" along with the wrestling are the norm. (You might remember Owen Hart falling to his death during an entrance from the rafters). Top that off with the amount of concussions and steroid related health issues that stem from wrestling, many ex-wrestlers are in poor health. Since many go into it very young, naive and desperate to make a living, they go for it. Part of Linda's platform was improving health care and her history at her company (which a lot of people had trouble with just for the turn they took years ago) made everyone a little skeptical of what she was saying.
But no one is making them become wrestlers and I am pretty sure their salaries are enough to buy health insurance. I wonder how many of those professional wrestles live lavishly. I just don't get the idea that your employer should be responsible for providing you with insurance. It should up to them just like it is up to you to work for a company that may or may not provide the benefits you want.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:19 PM   #147
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While you don't like to see people lose their jobs, sometimes they have no one but themselves to blame for that. As a company, Hostess was in trouble. The union workers knew that, but instead of working with Hostess to try and work out a deal that would help keep Hostess open and keep people in jobs, they didn't so now there are no jobs, instead of a number of jobs at a lesser wage.

I just don't get why people have a hard time understanding, a little of something is a whole lot better than nothing.
A friend of mine's dad worked for Hostess. Most Hostess workers had already taken pay cuts over the last couple of years. And the majority of them gave up even more this year! Most plants had already made more concessions, it was only a few plants that went on strike. So don't try and say they are all to blame for the company folding. It was in reality a few of them who decided to be stubborn. And everyone who worked for Hostess (even those who had already made concessions) lost their jobs.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:41 PM   #148
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There may not be other jobs 5 minutes from your house, next to mom, in your hometown, in your state or on your coast but there are other jobs.
Exactly. I've no sympathy for idjits sitting around waiting for a job to fall in their lap to keep them in the life they've been accustomed to. If there's nothing in your area... MOVE! It may be difficult but it will probably be worth it. No excuses.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:48 PM   #149
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One of my good friends will only work as an independent I.T contractor. He's not only turned down some very good job offers because they could never pay as much as he pulls in managing the infrastructure for a lot of companies but he resigned as CIO of a multinational company to become a contractor. In my field of work this isn't exactly uncommon either.
I'm in the same field (or at least one that's very closely related), and can say first hand, I did the independent contractor route for about six months--and stretched things out as long as I could before becoming an employee at that company-- for exactly many of the financial and tax advantages you have mentioned. 100% agree it's
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:54 PM   #150
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And go where, exactly?

Not just talking to you, luvmy3 but I see this so many times in these types of threads. "If you don't like the working conditions, find another job". There are no other jobs.
The existence or lack of other jobs, however, does not necessarily dictate the required labor terms of whatever jobs do exist.

Even in a worst case where there is--quite literally--no other job a person could possibly take (seems to be less than likely), they can still work on starting their own business... be a handyman, paint walls, mow lawns. No, none of those options are glamorous or very high pay, but given the complaints about where they'd be coming from, that may not be an issue.
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