DVC RESALES
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:39 AM   #46
Bonnie151
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Originally Posted by chalee94 View Post
for all the talk about "contracts", let's go back to the first post:



the owner sent a contract asking for full payment. that was the deal.

the renter decided unilaterally to renegotiate the terms and send the remaining half of the payment when they felt like it.

expectations seemed VERY clear - and the renter says so. the response by the renter looked suspiciously like a stall tactic (whether intended as such or not). the time to ask the question was before passive-aggressively mailing half the payment.
I'm still confused though. Did the owner make it clear before she made any bookings that payment in full would be required as the rooms were secured? Or did the OP think that her payment for the first room booked acted as a deposit for the whole booking and was then surprised to find that payment in full was required immediately after the remaining dates were secured? I don't think the OP has made the full story about the payment terms clear.

I agree with your post. To the owner, I think it looked like a delaying tactic. Unrelated, I know, but I run a small wedding cake business. My payment terms are made clear before booking and I do require payment in full before the wedding. I've learned through years of experience that if customers start to try to renegotiate the payment terms that what they REALLY mean is that they don't have the money to pay for the cake. If I'd been the DVC owner in this situation, it would have sent giant red bells ringing. I'm not saying this is the case for the OP, but it is what I would have worried about. I would have refused negotiation of the terms. I would have likely given 24 hours for payment in full and then cancelled, but I wouldn't have been at all happy!

ETA: I think it is the responsibility of the owner to make the payment terms clear and get agreement to the terms before they make any bookings (unless they are happy to grab a room to hold until payment terms are communicated, but hopefully I'm being clear here!) and it is the responsibility of the renter to make sure they understand the payment terms before any rooms are booked. I can't imagine starting the process on either side without this information!
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Last edited by Bonnie151; 10-22-2012 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:29 AM   #47
chalee94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie151 View Post
I'm still confused though. Did the owner make it clear before she made any bookings that payment in full would be required as the rooms were secured?!
it sounds like the OP paid 100% of completed bookings in the first case, rather than sending 50%.

Quote:
Some of the days were easy to find...and I paid for the first days with a check.
the question is do you list a series of issues that risk having the reservation being cancelled (partial payment/post-dated checks/payment in boxes of pennies) or do you have a broad disclaimer ("if you act weird and set off my warning bells.") that might put a normal renter on the defensive?
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:06 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie151 View Post
I agree with your post. To the owner, I think it looked like a delaying tactic. Unrelated, I know, but I run a small wedding cake business. My payment terms are made clear before booking and I do require payment in full before the wedding. I've learned through years of experience that if customers start to try to renegotiate the payment terms that what they REALLY mean is that they don't have the money to pay for the cake. If I'd been the DVC owner in this situation, it would have sent giant red bells ringing. I'm not saying this is the case for the OP, but it is what I would have worried about. I would have refused negotiation of the terms. I would have likely given 24 hours for payment in full and then cancelled, but I wouldn't have been at all happy!
This is the problem, OP. If you can't pay in full now, the owner of the points suspects she'll never get payment. At thirty days, her points become distressed - practically useless - and depending on her use year, perhaps really useless.

Anyone who has run a business starts to understand that 90% of customers who "will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" won't be able to pay you Tuesday - but the hamburger will be consumed. And the horror stories around here can fill a Halloween evening of owners who gave someone "another week to pay because it was the renter's honeymoon, or the kids were so looking forward to the trip, or the washer broke - but I'll have the money next paycheck for sure" and not get paid in full.

She protected herself. Yes, you have the right to feel slighted. However, you seem to have had a poor understanding of the deal you were making going into it and assumed rights you don't have and flexibility she didn't. Most of us owners are looking at six weeks of waitlist and thinking your owner was a saint - I wouldn't risk my points that way for my own family - and probably not for myself.

My husband will tell you that I have a horrible tendency to be pushed and yield, be pushed and yield - all very nicely and sweet - and then one day I'm pushed, and to the person who has been pushing (often my husband or my kids, but my coworkers, his mother - they've gotten it too - I think there has been a few examples on this board) its some little reasonable compromise I'm expected to make that has me snap. I suspect you found the straw that broke the camel's back.

I know you are disappointed - renting isn't for everyone.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by st225 View Post
About two months ago, I started working with a nice woman on securing a five nights around MLK day in January. Some of the days were easy to find, but some weren't. She put us on the waiting list and I paid for the first days with a check.

After about 6 weeks, we finally got the rest of the days secured. She sent an email contract that asked for all of the money now. I sent half and asked-- in a way that I thought was polite-- whether she would take half ow what was due now and half within 30 days of arrival.

Whoom. She sent back all of the money and cancelled the reservation. She didn't bother to counter with a request for all of the money now. She just sent a note saying that she felt insulted that I wasn't trusting her. She had never scammed anyone.

This wouldn't be a problem if everything unfolded within a few days, but now it's impossible for me to get the same reservation. The resorts my kids wanted are all booked.

I feel like once she cashed my first check, the reservation was, in part, mine. She didn't have the right to cancel it without at least checking with me or giving me some kind of warning or trying to negotiate. She knew it was the first time I was renting DVC points and yet she acted as if she could trash the reservation without consulting me.

Here are my questions for the group:

* Am I allowed to feel wronged, in some small way?

* While the system gives the renters complete power over the reservation, are they obliged to contact the customer before changing the reservation?

* Does acceptance of a partial payment make a difference? Does it show my good will? Does it make it worse for her to change the reservation?

* Is there some standard contract or ethical boilerplate tool that should make this clearer for everyone from the beginning?


Thanks. I'm curious to hear what both renters and rentees say. This is my first experience with renting points and it's made me very leery about doing it again. The points holder has too much power to act capriciously.

I did not read through all the responses, from what I did read it looked like the consensus is that the renter is right, you were wrong and you have a lot of nerve for not understanding the process.

I would disagree. I think some simple communication would have sufficed, it's a business transaction and she was aware that you were new to this. So why she couldn't have just contacted you and said "No, because I cannot reuse the points within 30 days of the reservation I would need all monies paid in full at this time" is beyond me. The notion that somebody was "insulted" and felt inclined to chide "never scammed anyone" sounds like utter paranoia. Insults are very personal, and anybody who is insulted over the actions of a person they don't know (and that held no ill intent) is puzzling, to say the least. As for "I've never scammed anybody", well unless you accused her of scamming people then this comment is totally irrelevant and evidence of further paranoia, IMO.

She could have explained the money was due and why, and been done with it. Instead she swiped a reservation out from under you and your kids, when your intent all along was to pay the full price--you just needed a little hand-holding since it was your first time through the process.

These are the types of situations that turn off renters, and ultimately make it harder for anybody who wants or needs to find a renter.

I'm sorry you were put through this and hope somehow your trip works out.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:43 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjc2003 View Post
I did not read through all the responses, from what I did read it looked like the consensus is that the renter is right, you were wrong and you have a lot of nerve for not understanding the process.

I would disagree. I think some simple communication would have sufficed, it's a business transaction and she was aware that you were new to this. So why she couldn't have just contacted you and said "No, because I cannot reuse the points within 30 days of the reservation I would need all monies paid in full at this time" is beyond me. The notion that somebody was "insulted" and felt inclined to chide "never scammed anyone" sounds like utter paranoia. Insults are very personal, and anybody who is insulted over the actions of a person they don't know (and that held no ill intent) is puzzling, to say the least. As for "I've never scammed anybody", well unless you accused her of scamming people then this comment is totally irrelevant and evidence of further paranoia, IMO.

She could have explained the money was due and why, and been done with it. Instead she swiped a reservation out from under you and your kids, when your intent all along was to pay the full price--you just needed a little hand-holding since it was your first time through the process.

These are the types of situations that turn off renters, and ultimately make it harder for anybody who wants or needs to find a renter.

I'm sorry you were put through this and hope somehow your trip works out.
Bottom line is you are dealing with people and all of their faults on both sides. Most of the owners renting are not professionals, may not really know what they are doing and may be sensitive if the renter seems like they are changing the deal.

Same thing on the renters side, many are first time renters and really have no idea what they are renting, they are just looking for a cheaper room.

Best advice is to get to know the other party, require a contract and ask for references and history.

Bill
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mjc2003 View Post
I did not read through all the responses, from what I did read it looked like the consensus is that the renter is right, you were wrong and you have a lot of nerve for not understanding the process.
I don't think that's a fair characterization. I do think many posters tried to educate OP as to the many ways in which both parties assume some risk in a rental transaction.

Among the other points which came up during the discussion are:

1) OP believed that she was assuming all of the risk.

2) When the member asked for payment in full, OP instead sent partial payment along with a letter explaining why she didn't think she should have to pay the full amount at that time.

Without knowing the full context of that letter--and other communications which lead up to it--I find it very difficult to place any blame on the member.

Full payment at the time of reservation is a very common condition of point rentals. If OP had made the payment as requested, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:18 PM   #52
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LisaViolet nailed the issue. If I requested full payment but you only sent me half the payment with a note saying hey how about half now, I would think that person would be manipulative and hard to work with. (Would you do this with your house payment ?) Now, if you called me or emailed me first and asked the question, that'd be a totally different story but to not have terms up front then to only send in half when full was requested would be insulting. It's called an assumptive close and it pisses people off. Whether you meant to do it or not, actually dropping only half the payment in the mail or Paypal instead of asking upfront is exactly this. It shows you pressing you will of only wanting to pay half.

Keep in mind that while the amount paid to rent points seems like a lot of money, about half that amount per point is taken away by annual dues for DVC and the rest is against the staggering price of dvc which people on the rentee side of the equation probably have some concept about or else they'd be owners and not rentee's.

Sorry to the OP for the outcome. I get it because so much of the trip is about the resort too. I also totally get the shock of how it ended. I am honestly sorry to hear how it worked out because there are so many great people who do rent points out here.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalee94 View Post
for all the talk about "contracts", let's go back to the first post:



the owner sent a contract asking for full payment. that was the deal.

the renter decided unilaterally to renegotiate the terms and send the remaining half of the payment when they felt like it.

expectations seemed VERY clear - and the renter says so. the response by the renter looked suspiciously like a stall tactic (whether intended as such or not). the time to ask the question was before passive-aggressively mailing half the payment.
When I read the OP, the owner booked a few days of the reservation then waitlisted the rest, the renter made a partial payment, the owner got the rest of the days and then sent the contract which asked for payment in full.

That doesn't sound to me like the renter had a contract with all the terms in it before he paid.

The contract should be the first thing that both parties agree to before any reservations are made. And if not a formal a contract, then at least an email with all the payment terms.

So if there was NO contract signed before the booking, bad on the owner. If the renter tried to change the terms of a signed contract, bad on the renter.

Be gratefull that the owner sent the money back and move on.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bonnie151 View Post

ETA: I think it is the responsibility of the owner to make the payment terms clear and get agreement to the terms before they make any bookings (unless they are happy to grab a room to hold until payment terms are communicated, but hopefully I'm being clear here!) and it is the responsibility of the renter to make sure they understand the payment terms before any rooms are booked. I can't imagine starting the process on either side without this information!
exactly
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:40 PM   #55
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All I can think about when I read this is "caveat emptor." Let the buyer beware. The OP should have clarified payment terms up front. And I think it was very presumptuous of the OP to send a partial payment...especially after the owner went to a significant amount of trouble to secure nights on waitlists. I don't blame the owner one bit for cancelling the transaction altogether. As others have said, the OP should have emailed and asked for a payment plan rather than just making her own.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:50 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bonnie151 View Post
I agree with your post. To the owner, I think it looked like a delaying tactic. Unrelated, I know, but I run a small wedding cake business. My payment terms are made clear before booking and I do require payment in full before the wedding. I've learned through years of experience that if customers start to try to renegotiate the payment terms that what they REALLY mean is that they don't have the money to pay for the cake.
This. Exactly. In my work experience, this is exactly what people do. It is dishonest to request a service or a product and expect someone else to fulfill their end of the obligation while STILL negotiating your end of the obligation.

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Old 10-23-2012, 12:31 AM   #57
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My two cents....

All business transactions are better with more communication and less "feelings". All the specific terms of the deal should be complete before anyone looks for a reservation or sends money for a reservation. If everybody understands the what and when, then no feelings get hurt.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:47 PM   #58
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I don't understand why you didn't send an email asking about the payment before sending the lesser amount. Obviously I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the member would have responded quickly to your request. Then you could have sent the entire amount and be planning your vacation.

Personally, I'm not sure I would have cancelled the trip without contacting you, but I do understand the thought process that would go into that decision.

We rented points to our sons' friend last week. It's the first time we are renting out our points. The person renting the points said they would send a check right away. It's only been a week, but there is anxiety involved.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:32 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st225 View Post
Here are my questions for the group:

* Am I allowed to feel wronged, in some small way?
You are allowed to feel any way you want, but your feelings and mine are irrelevant. It is what it is, and how anyone feels about it won't change a thing.

Just for the record, I don't see any ethical issue here. There is nothing in anything you've posted that gives me any qualms about the ethics of the either party to the transaction.

I see a communications problem before, during, and at the end of the aborted transaction -- but obviously nobody was trying to rip anyone off.

Quote:
* While the system gives the renters complete power over the reservation, are they obliged to contact the customer before changing the reservation?
No.

Quote:
* Does acceptance of a partial payment make a difference? Does it show my good will? Does it make it worse for her to change the reservation?
I don't see partial payment as a factor -- the owner made a partial reservation and you paid what you owed.

I think the owner showed a huge amount of good will by going through the difficulties of a waitlist and tying up her points for two months waiting for the full reservation to come through. Very few owners would have gone to that trouble and additional risk.

Quote:
* Is there some standard contract or ethical boilerplate tool that should make this clearer for everyone from the beginning?
There are some suggestions, and if you'd read the "Sticky" about how to use the DIS Rent/Trade board, you would have seen a link to a lengthy thread discussing exactly that.

But every rental is a private transaction between the owner and the person renting the reservation. In that context, what anyone else uses is irrelevant. What matters is the agreement you have with the person you are renting from. If you enter into a transaction without any agreement on payment terms, you have compounded the risk for both parties.

I'm sorry this rental didn't work out for you, and I hope you find other accommodations and have a great vacation.
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Old 10-27-2012, 02:02 AM   #60
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hang in there,

take away the difference in opinions, & add the cold~hard facts,
& you will be better/ready to do it!

to jimm., as he gave an outstanding insights to redirect
all your efforts toward a future , successful exchange.

i think you was very close in the first one, just a few misunderstandings,
& that could have happened to anyone. again, i think your replies
& seeking solutions show you to be of high character.

fyi~ one of my keys in helping others is teaching/reminding- "we"
all make mistakes. those that reach their goals in life accept
this fact and are willing to make the changes to achieve the
the prize or desired outcome. and what i have discovered over
& over --the changes are more often than not, are very
small.

just a little illustration---when i "did" cardiac recovery, some of the
old teachings needed work. they were accurate but had little chance
of being used by those needing "changes" most. ( i learn this
from my parents, to give up smoking was like taken away their
will to recover-they wasn't going to do it) . the other choice was
just to give up? instead "teach" a third choice that would have
a major impact--give up chain smoking , & do deep breathing
@ least a few times afterward each cigarette. and most importantly
"give up" the after dinner smoke for @ least a hour. i added
the reason "why"...your heart is working the hardest output after
eating. i know , know how most enjoy smoking after eating
but this is when your cardiac output is increased between 25-to
30% total volume. to understand this effect, it is worst than
smoking & running @ the same time. the outcome can/is
a matter of life vs death.

ps, this works even if you currently don't suffer cardiac problems.
.....sneak a couple more in....everyone heard about cholestrol
levels "but"-- good dental hygiene also prevent cardiac problems.
oh?, high blood pressure "is" a cardiac problem. sorry ,
but i am alarm .....talking with cardiac pts saying they were never
taught these "little changes" ....but sooo important for
recovery. after all , one needs good health so you can participate
in the "sports of doing disney"!
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