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Old 11-14-2012, 11:53 AM   #91
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That's a great time for any 5K, especially a hilly one! Congratulations! Are you doing longer events too? I try to mix it up - everything from 5Ks to my first full marathon last weekend. Helps to keep it interesting.
Thanks! Congrats on your first full marathon!

Yes, I do all distances. One of the good things about living in DC is that there are always events going on around here at the various distances.

My sweet spot is really the half marathon distance, I guess (I'm a 1:45-1:50 runner at that distance). I'm signed up for the Disney full marathon in January; I'm hoping to break 4:00 for the first time. Based on my half finishing times I should be able to do it (and should have done it in the past), but for whatever reason it's never worked out. I did a 20-miler last weekend and finished that in 3:00, so I feel like the 4:00 is reachable. We'll see.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:35 PM   #92
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I'm signed up for the Disney full marathon in January; I'm hoping to break 4:00 for the first time. Based on my half finishing times I should be able to do it (and should have done it in the past), but for whatever reason it's never worked out. I did a 20-miler last weekend and finished that in 3:00, so I feel like the 4:00 is reachable. We'll see.
Try doing some of your long runs at marathon pace or marathon pace + 10 seconds. It really teaches you to run hard and fast while tired.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:40 PM   #93
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Thanks! Congrats on your first full marathon!

Yes, I do all distances. One of the good things about living in DC is that there are always events going on around here at the various distances.

My sweet spot is really the half marathon distance, I guess (I'm a 1:45-1:50 runner at that distance). I'm signed up for the Disney full marathon in January; I'm hoping to break 4:00 for the first time. Based on my half finishing times I should be able to do it (and should have done it in the past), but for whatever reason it's never worked out. I did a 20-miler last weekend and finished that in 3:00, so I feel like the 4:00 is reachable. We'll see.
I'm out in NoVa suburbia, so I know how lucky we are to have a ton of local races every weekend.

Thanks for the congrats on the marathon. I did Richmond on the 10th, and it's a great event - not too crowded, not a hard course, and lots of very friendly volunteers making it fun (as fun as a marathon can be!). I'm doing the Goofy in January (my first runDisney event) with my brother, and we're just looking to finish, without worrying about time.

I totally think you've got a sub-4 hr. marathon in you. We have similar paces, with you being slightly faster. My recent PRs are 22:15 for 5K and 1:50 for the half, and I did Richmond in 3:56, so if you're faster in the half, then sub-4 is not a reach at all. I don't know if you can hit that at Disney though, just from what I hear. The flat course is favorable but from the videos I've seen online, the crowding might be an issue slowing you up. That's one of the things I liked about Richmond - even though that race hit a record for racers for the full, thanks to the NYC marathon cancellation, it wasn't crowded past the first 5 miles. After that, it was easy to find space and find a rhythm. Anyway, best of luck hitting sub-4, and best of luck to you at WDW!
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:42 PM   #94
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So this thread moved on from the original topic but I'll weigh in anyway. At my own peril, perhaps! (But seriously, I enjoyed reading this discussion)

I believe the bottom line for Disney is financial profit, and secondly customer/guest service.

At the end of the day, Disney is organizing races to make a profit. Disney happily gives out the medals to the DNF folks as a means of guest recovery - keeping guests happy.

(As far as I know they don't explicitly advertise the practice -- before this thread, I never knew about it. So it's not like a selling point -- "sign up and you're guaranteed a medal" type of thing.)

They likely see zero gain by denying medals to DNF folks. The risk, on the other hand, is larger: if paying customers develop a negative view of Disney or the experience via being denied their medal, they will not return and will not spend more money.

Disney is not willing to risk that people are disenfranchised over the principle of finisher=medal. Giving medals to all who start/try is inexpensive, easy guest recovery.

Personally, I wouldn't want a medal if I hadn't completed the race. I wouldn't even wear the t-shirt. If I failed, I'd be motivated to try harder.

Other big races are not backed by the customer service-focused, vacation behemoth that is Disney. Other races don't have to live up to the magical experience standard the Disney (and runDisney) brand sets for itself. I think those other races can more easily deny medals to DNFs.

Races that follow Disney's lead by giving everyone a medal are perhaps thinking along similar lines, or trying to save time/volunteer work at the end of the race.

The Disney difference is obvious to me in every aspect of the race. As someone who has done a fair amount of running, and other big marathons, I still want to run Disney even though its finisher medal standards are less.

However, I honestly don't care who gets a medal and who doesn't. As long as they're not selling them at the Expo! Haha. I'm just so glad these Disney races exist for me to enjoy!!

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Old 11-14-2012, 02:22 PM   #95
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I will surely regret sharing my opinion but here it goes!

My first race ever was the 2011 Disney World Half Marathon. I signed up about 10 months in advance and started with the Couch to 5k. I was not super consistent with my training but did the best I could. I honestly didn't know enough to seek out local races before race day. I had done a 10 miler in training (I did 99% of all of my training runs on the treadmill). Luckily I combination of ok training and stubbornness got me across the finish line (I think my time for that race was around 2:46 - somewhere in the 2:40's). Since that time I have finished 5 Half Marathons and 1 Full Marathon and I'm currently training for the Goofy.

I, personally, am all about MY OWN accomplishment. This past January I struggled through the full marathon and finish (just under 6 hours!). My husband attempted the Half Marathon and was swept at mile 10 due to an ankle injury. He was sorely undertrained (I was a little annoyed with him for not training more). Yes, he received a medal. I don't think I would have taken one but I think his failure to finish has helped inspired him to become more fit. I was so proud of my Mickey Medal that I have honestly never wasted a single moment thinking about him receiving a medal for a race he didn't finish.

I get very annoyed at people who BRAG about their lack of training going into a runDisney event. For better or for worse I think that many Disney fans think that they can "fake" their way through a Half Marathon or a Full Marathon because, well, it's Disney. I have nothing but respect for people who have never been runners and are willing to get off the couch for the first time and take a chance on a race - whether or not they finish. The hardest part is taking that first step! Heck, I was one of those people!

I guess the question for many people is this: Does giving everyone who starts the race a "finisher" medal diminish the accomplishment of those who actually finish? And I have very mixed feelings about this question. For my own accomplishment, it's me vs. myself (and maybe against the clock as I work hard to get faster). Beyond that, I'm not really sure. I truly understand both sides to the debate but I sometimes feel it's part of the feel-good culture that doesn't actually make anyone feel good. (Nobody can win an elementary school soccer game because half the children will feel badly about losing....) The medal is just a piece of hardware. If I've accomplished something great, I don't need hardware to tell me that (not that I don't love bling). If I've fallen short, no amount of hardware is going to fix that either.

Ultimately what matters to me is what I've been able to achieve in not quite 3 years of running. I'm super proud of the wonderful way running has improved my life forever. Medal or no medal, that's what is really important!

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Old 11-14-2012, 02:46 PM   #96
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Try doing some of your long runs at marathon pace or marathon pace + 10 seconds. It really teaches you to run hard and fast while tired.
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually tried to do that during my 20-miler long run on Sunday, which is why I did it in 3 hours (9:00/m pace). I'm a little concerned about pushing any harder than that during the long runs. Jeff Galloway has put the fear of God into me about getting injured by running too fast on the training runs. According to him, I should be running them at no faster than 10:30/m. I'm not really sure what I should do. I'm planning on doing a 22 and a 24 before Disney. My inclination is to try to do them at 9:00 to 9:15, but I'm concerned about injury. Any thoughts?
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:56 PM   #97
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I'm out in NoVa suburbia, so I know how lucky we are to have a ton of local races every weekend.

Thanks for the congrats on the marathon. I did Richmond on the 10th, and it's a great event - not too crowded, not a hard course, and lots of very friendly volunteers making it fun (as fun as a marathon can be!). I'm doing the Goofy in January (my first runDisney event) with my brother, and we're just looking to finish, without worrying about time.

I totally think you've got a sub-4 hr. marathon in you. We have similar paces, with you being slightly faster. My recent PRs are 22:15 for 5K and 1:50 for the half, and I did Richmond in 3:56, so if you're faster in the half, then sub-4 is not a reach at all. I don't know if you can hit that at Disney though, just from what I hear. The flat course is favorable but from the videos I've seen online, the crowding might be an issue slowing you up. That's one of the things I liked about Richmond - even though that race hit a record for racers for the full, thanks to the NYC marathon cancellation, it wasn't crowded past the first 5 miles. After that, it was easy to find space and find a rhythm. Anyway, best of luck hitting sub-4, and best of luck to you at WDW!
Thanks! A colleague of mine at work did the Richmond marathon as well; I figured that's what you meant when you said you ran one last weekend. (My colleague is one of those guys who runs sub-3:00; as a matter of fact I think he won his age group in that race.) He said it was a fun race.

I agree that I should be able to hit sub-4:00. During my last full marathon (first one where I was trying to hit that time) I was running into the wind for about 20 miles, and I think that really slowed me up. The course also had a lot of turns, which didn't help my time either. I also had hurt my foot about three weeks before the race and I had to cut back severely on training of any sort just to make sure it was healed enough to do the race. I ended up at about 4:10. I did the first half at 1:55 . . . the second half just really killed me. We'll see how it goes.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:19 PM   #98
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Thanks for the suggestion. I actually tried to do that during my 20-miler long run on Sunday, which is why I did it in 3 hours (9:00/m pace). I'm a little concerned about pushing any harder than that during the long runs. Jeff Galloway has put the fear of God into me about getting injured by running too fast on the training runs. According to him, I should be running them at no faster than 10:30/m. I'm not really sure what I should do. I'm planning on doing a 22 and a 24 before Disney. My inclination is to try to do them at 9:00 to 9:15, but I'm concerned about injury. Any thoughts?
I ran my long runs at ~9:00, so I think your pace is fine. I read all this stuff from serious marathon runners about not doing the long run too fast, because you won't recover, but I think recovery comes a lot quicker for the 4-hour marathon runner than the 3-hour marathoner, because I was never hurting for more than a few hours after any of my long runs. I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate I plan, which had a high of about 40 miles/week, well below the sort of weekly mileage the faster types are doing. Injury was never an issue.

I also didn't do any longer runs than 2-20's. What plan are you using that recommends a 24?
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:25 PM   #99
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Thanks! A colleague of mine at work did the Richmond marathon as well; I figured that's what you meant when you said you ran one last weekend. (My colleague is one of those guys who runs sub-3:00; as a matter of fact I think he won his age group in that race.) He said it was a fun race.

I agree that I should be able to hit sub-4:00. During my last full marathon (first one where I was trying to hit that time) I was running into the wind for about 20 miles, and I think that really slowed me up. The course also had a lot of turns, which didn't help my time either. I also had hurt my foot about three weeks before the race and I had to cut back severely on training of any sort just to make sure it was healed enough to do the race. I ended up at about 4:10. I did the first half at 1:55 . . . the second half just really killed me. We'll see how it goes.
I'm really bad about starting out too fast, and flaming out at the end of races, so I made a point of taking my marathon slow - I didn't want to have a death march to the finish. I stuck with the 4:00 pace group for the first 5 miles or so until I got a good rhythm at ~9:00/miles, and then went off on my own. I hit the half at 1:58, and barely lost any time in the second half. The last 6 miles are probably going to force you to really dig deep, so it's important to get to mile 20 without already being in difficulty.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:37 PM   #100
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I ran my long runs at ~9:00, so I think your pace is fine. I read all this stuff from serious marathon runners about not doing the long run too fast, because you won't recover, but I think recovery comes a lot quicker for the 4-hour marathon runner than the 3-hour marathoner, because I was never hurting for more than a few hours after any of my long runs. I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate I plan, which had a high of about 40 miles/week, well below the sort of weekly mileage the faster types are doing. Injury was never an issue.

I also didn't do any longer runs than 2-20's. What plan are you using that recommends a 24?
Jeff Galloway recommends going all the way out to 28 for time goal marathon training. I'm not doing that (not enough time left on the schedule). So, I'm doing 24 as a compromise. The reason he suggests the longer runs is to avoid the problem you described re digging deep for the last six miles. I think his philosophy is that if you've done the longer distance in training, the endurance has been built up already, therefore, less need to push the limits.

I agree that I'll definitely need to do a better pacing job during Disney. I am thinking about doing something similar to what you did . . . sticking fairly close to the 4:00 pace group and taking off only if I'm feeling good during the second half. I'm hopeful that the crowding won't be too big of an issue; I've run 20,000+ participant races before and haven't had a hard time navigating.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:38 PM   #101
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So this thread moved on from the original topic but I'll weigh in anyway. At my own peril, perhaps! (But seriously, I enjoyed reading this discussion)

I believe the bottom line for Disney is financial profit, and secondly customer/guest service.

At the end of the day, Disney is organizing races to make a profit. Disney happily gives out the medals to the DNF folks as a means of guest recovery - keeping guests happy.

(As far as I know they don't explicitly advertise the practice -- before this thread, I never knew about it. So it's not like a selling point -- "sign up and you're guaranteed a medal" type of thing.)

They likely see zero gain by denying medals to DNF folks. The risk, on the other hand, is larger: if paying customers develop a negative view of Disney or the experience via being denied their medal, they will not return and will not spend more money.

Disney is not willing to risk that people are disenfranchised over the principle of finisher=medal. Giving medals to all who start/try is inexpensive, easy guest recovery.

Personally, I wouldn't want a medal if I hadn't completed the race. I wouldn't even wear the t-shirt. If I failed, I'd be motivated to try harder.

Other big races are not backed by the customer service-focused, vacation behemoth that is Disney. Other races don't have to live up to the magical experience standard the Disney (and runDisney) brand sets for itself. I think those other races can more easily deny medals to DNFs.

Races that follow Disney's lead by giving everyone a medal are perhaps thinking along similar lines, or trying to save time/volunteer work at the end of the race.

The Disney difference is obvious to me in every aspect of the race. As someone who has done a fair amount of running, and other big marathons, I still want to run Disney even though its finisher medal standards are less.

However, I honestly don't care who gets a medal and who doesn't. As long as they're not selling them at the Expo! Haha. I'm just so glad these Disney races exist for me to enjoy!!

I disagree. Disney has made many a decision to piss its guests off (ie: cutting PM EMH) and like the sheep we are, we keep coming back. These races sell out pretty quickly in my opinion, so I think there would still be plenty of people putting down a large amount if cash to run these races even if the ones who didn't receive a medal because they DNF'd no longer ran a Disney race. Even if they told their friends, who told their friends, etc., they would still sell these races out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilvr

Jeff Galloway recommends going all the way out to 28 for time goal marathon training. I'm not doing that (not enough time left on the schedule). So, I'm doing 24 as a compromise. The reason he suggests the longer runs is to avoid the problem you described re digging deep for the last six miles. I think his philosophy is that if you've done the longer distance in training, the endurance has been built up already, therefore, less need to push the limits.

I agree that I'll definitely need to do a better pacing job during Disney. I am thinking about doing something similar to what you did . . . sticking fairly close to the 4:00 pace group and taking off only if I'm feeling good during the second half. I'm hopeful that the crowding won't be too big of an issue; I've run 20,000+ participant races before and haven't had a hard time navigating.
I want my first 26.2 to be at Disney so I'm going up to 25 miles and I'm praying Disney magic gets me to the finish line. LOL

Sent from my iPad using DISBoards. Please excuse the typos.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:23 PM   #102
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I disagree. Disney has made many a decision to piss its guests off (ie: cutting PM EMH) and like the sheep we are, we keep coming back. These races sell out pretty quickly in my opinion, so I think there would still be plenty of people putting down a large amount if cash to run these races even if the ones who didn't receive a medal because they DNF'd no longer ran a Disney race. Even if they told their friends, who told their friends, etc., they would still sell these races out.
I don't think Disney makes decisions specifically to upset guests, I think Disney makes financial decisions. In the case of PM EMH, the financial upside -- the large amount of money saved -- outweighed the guest dissatisfaction downside. Big net gain of $$.

Disney has to prepare enough race medals for everyone. They can give medals to DNFs, potentially increasing guest/volunteer satisfaction with the event without cutting into their $$ bottom line at all. They avoid complaints and any chance of bad PR, for little or no extra cost.

People get so emotional at the end of a race. It's a memorable moment and I see this as Disney working to make it more positive for DNFs. Making a more magical memory for no extra cost. This can't hurt the brand impression, and can only help the bottom line in the future!

Regardless of my tangent here, the point is moot, as we are all going to train hard and work to get that medal! Good luck to all!
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:46 PM   #103
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Wow, not what I was expecting when I came back to this thread

Re: local races- there are 2 HUGE running clubs in my area, plus multiple small "teams"/clubs. These are the SERIOUS runners. They having uniforms and everything. And they are well represented at EVERY local race. But while they are fast, they are usually really nice people. Yes some of them can be jerks, but hey thats everywhere. And many of them have advice and words of wisdom to share with others.

One of my favorite local races is a 10k in April for Masters runners only (so 40+). The three big local teams make up most of the competitors (ok so there are usually only about 120 runners but who's counting) These folks are awesome. And where do I fit in? Running with the 80 year old WAAAAAAY at the back of the pack. Guess what? Those fast and 50 year olds tell me "good job" when they pass me on the out and back course. Am I intimidated? No, because I am out there doing MY thing. Trust me, you may think others are looking at you and discounting you, but they really aren't. And if they are, well they are not nice people any way and not worth your time.

If Disney is where you want to do your first race, so be it. But I still say its a "finishers" medal. Just my opinion.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:24 PM   #104
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Thanks for the suggestion. I actually tried to do that during my 20-miler long run on Sunday, which is why I did it in 3 hours (9:00/m pace). I'm a little concerned about pushing any harder than that during the long runs. Jeff Galloway has put the fear of God into me about getting injured by running too fast on the training runs. According to him, I should be running them at no faster than 10:30/m. I'm not really sure what I should do. I'm planning on doing a 22 and a 24 before Disney. My inclination is to try to do them at 9:00 to 9:15, but I'm concerned about injury. Any thoughts?
My own personal belief is that Galloway's philosophy and training plans are geared towards getting people across the finish line upright and in one piece. They're not generally focused on the higher intensity training that is required to get someone to really bust their old PR and start turning in times of sub-4 or sub-330, etc. Not to say it can't happen that way, but in my experience, the best way to run a fast marathon is to run fast in training. For my last marathon, nearly all of my long runs were done as intervals of some sort. For example, an 18-mile run with 2 miles at an easy pace (9:30 or so), 11 miles at MP+10 (8:55 to 9:00), and the last 5 miles at MP (8:45-8:50) was my last long run done two weeks before race day. The other ones, the 20s and the other 16s and 18s, were all similar, with intervals like 3 easy, 3 at HMP (8:30-ish), 3 easy, 3 at HMP, etc. Another one was start easy and drop the pace 5 seconds per mile after the first 3 miles, so you end up running the last few miles at or faster than marathon pace. Of course, you also need to be doing speed work of some sort during the week too - fartleks, ladders, track intervals, tempo intervals, etc.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:56 AM   #105
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My own personal belief is that Galloway's philosophy and training plans are geared towards getting people across the finish line upright and in one piece. They're not generally focused on the higher intensity training that is required to get someone to really bust their old PR and start turning in times of sub-4 or sub-330, etc. Not to say it can't happen that way, but in my experience, the best way to run a fast marathon is to run fast in training. For my last marathon, nearly all of my long runs were done as intervals of some sort. For example, an 18-mile run with 2 miles at an easy pace (9:30 or so), 11 miles at MP+10 (8:55 to 9:00), and the last 5 miles at MP (8:45-8:50) was my last long run done two weeks before race day. The other ones, the 20s and the other 16s and 18s, were all similar, with intervals like 3 easy, 3 at HMP (8:30-ish), 3 easy, 3 at HMP, etc. Another one was start easy and drop the pace 5 seconds per mile after the first 3 miles, so you end up running the last few miles at or faster than marathon pace. Of course, you also need to be doing speed work of some sort during the week too - fartleks, ladders, track intervals, tempo intervals, etc.
I'd agree with this.
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