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Old 10-03-2012, 02:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysword View Post
Bottom line of the thread, though, is to make our community aware of the Freeze Drill, so if engaged by the TSA, they don't panic.
Knowledge is good!

I was like one of the PP. I was caught in a "freeze drill" - only I had no idea what was going on. I was in the middle of taking of my shoe when it happened. So I had to stand there with one shoe on and one shoe off while they conducted the drill. They don't necessarily tell you what happened or that it was a drill, so you're left wondering until you get a chance to Google it later!
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:55 PM   #17
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I posted the thread and the link to the newspaper blog to provide a heads up for our community, should we experience a drill in action.

However, I will say that I disagree with the implied notion (at least as how I read it) that the reports provided are nothing more than an attempt "to stir up issues where there is no issues". It is a fact that TSA agents do apply the rules subjectively, and there is a significant lack of consistency in how things are managed. In addition, there are weekly reports of TSA agents not performing their job properly.

To that end, I am curious if the real reason terrorists have not attempted another action on an aircraft originating from a United States airport is due to the vigilance of the FBI and the flying public as a whole, rather than the presence of the TSA.


Bottom line of the thread, though, is to make our community aware of the Freeze Drill, so if engaged by the TSA, they don't panic.

Sorry Greysworld.........I was not clear..........I was refering to the blogs and the NY Times pieces.


No implied at all.....referring to the blogs and the NY Times piece...I said just that...these same folks keep repeating the same things over and over to try and stir issues up.

Yes sometimes things are handling subjectively. When you have a job with so many different things going on, in varyings ways..........sometimes they are handled differently in each case.....nothing unsual there.

I agree its all the agencies, working together that has prevented another plane or planes coming down...........obviously the agencies don't tell us the public what goes on behind the scenes and all the attacks they have prevented qiuetly.

I don't deal with aircraft, but I do deal in Maritime seciurity and know about a good deal of what happens and is not released to the public.

When you have 34,000 people working in a agency.........you are going to now and then have someone not do there job right.......It has not to my knowledge been a weekly thing, as the media loves to jump on the TSA and I only seen a report every month or so, if that. What you don't see is the times the complaints have been dismissed or when the real information has been found......the media and blogs and rags like the NY times never report or discuss that!

Lets remember these folks are trying to do a hard job, with the spot light on them all the time and people making complaints, rude remarks and making judgments with limited and often incorrect information.

Lastly........on the thread and why you posted it, I totally agree with the goal!


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Old 10-04-2012, 11:33 PM   #18
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PP knows full well that DHS & TSA publicize whenever they catch "bad guys" or break up a threat. What DHS & TSA do not like is when members of the general public air examples of the nonsense foisted on us in the name of security. Or when airport security screeners a found committing crimes against passengers.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:13 AM   #19
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PP knows full well that DHS & TSA publicize whenever they catch "bad guys" or break up a threat. What DHS & TSA do not like is when members of the general public air examples of the nonsense foisted on us in the name of security. Or when airport security screeners a found committing crimes against passengers.
Fact......no they don't and the logic is simple.....they don't want the bad guys to know what they know. Your lack of any secruity background is shockingly obvious.

Your posted Blogs are not the general public it is a small group is people who just want to start trouble by posting partial truths and flat out lies and off beat opinion, to try an confuss people........is it thier right to...YES......it is right........ NO.

As stated 34,000 emplyees.......yes there will be a few bad people..but the 99.9% of the employess are working hard to do a good job. Your comments do them and the general public harm and they deserve a applogy.

AKK.

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Old 10-05-2012, 12:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
Fact......no they don't and the logic is simple.....they don't want the bad guys to know what they know. Your lack of any secruity background is shockingly obvious.
This is an interesting statement. What are your credentials, AKK?

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Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
Your posted Blogs are not the general public it is a small group is people who just want to start trouble by posting partial truths and flat out lies and off beat opinion, to try an confuss people........is it thier right to...YES......it is right........ NO.
It seems the NY Times is a little more than an isolated blog who is out to start trouble. Since they are included, as well as other respected publications, in reporting TSA behaviors, I would say these sort of generalized statements fail to make your case, AKK.

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Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
As stated 34,000 emplyees.......yes there will be a few bad people..but the 99.9% of the employess are working hard to do a good job. Your comments do them and the general public harm and they deserve a applogy.

AKK.
There are more than a few "bad apples".

Personal note:
I can understand the reason for the "freeze drill", as the TSA has let people through with items that should have been caught, and it is easier to inconvenience those in the area instead of rescreening the whole airport. That said, I think they take it way too seriously. Practice is to ingrain immediate actions, so they are performed without thought, but forcing someone not to "fidget" is just plain silly.

In addition, I have come to realize that the role of the TSA is to provide the appearance of security, with the ancillary benefit of being able to be more vigilant to those security measures required before September 2001. Actually delivering security against terrorist attack would require different processes and procedures, which are well documented and tested in other parts of the world, but are not the focus of the TSA.

There has not been a terrorist attack on an airline originating from the United States since September 2001; however, many of the more draconian requirements have been mandated years after the initial engagement. In addition, these enhanced requirements were not based on any actionable intelligence or imminent threat to airline safety; rather, they were implemented due to actions of terrorists on aircraft, which originated outside of our nation. To that end and based on the lack of evidence suggesting these enhancements and the TSA are at all effective, it stands to reason that we should be relaxing security and instead focusing our money and attention toward those efforts that would be effective in stemming the tide of a future terrorist attack.

These are my thoughts. I don't consider myself anti-security or anti-TSA, but the empirical evidence of the agency's lack of
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:00 PM   #21
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This is an interesting statement. What are your credentials, AKK?

35 years in the martitime industry.the last 10 or so involved with all transportation secruity.

It seems the NY Times is a little more than an isolated blog who is out to start trouble. Since they are included, as well as other respected publications, in reporting TSA behaviors, I would say these sort of generalized statements fail to make your case, AKK.

The times is far from a A rated paper any more when you count the number of reporters who have admited making up stories and facts and been fired or criminally charged. Granted they still have the name and are well read in the cities.but not much more then that. Enough detail?
I never said there weren't a few bad apples/incidents is 34,000 in the tsa alone, but what a find interested the blogs and the Times never come back and admit it when the real fact do come out and shows there *TAKE* on the problem was reproted wrong!. Beleive me most american dont beleive the main stream press for much of anything anymore.,

There are more than a few "bad apples".

Sorry please provide your proof now? .....I can count about 14 stories repeorted this year ........not alot.and that doesnt count the ones where the agents were shown to have acted correctly after a investigation.........Only a few.*bad Apples*
Personal note:
I can understand the reason for the "freeze drill", as the TSA has let people through with items that should have been caught, and it is easier to inconvenience those in the area instead of rescreening the whole airport. That said, I think they take it way too seriously. Practice is to ingrain immediate actions, so they are performed without thought, but forcing someone not to "fidget" is just plain silly.

I I have to agree on this one.to try and make peole freze is a bit over the top.this is the first I have hread of this.I intend to read up a bit

In addition, I have come to realize that the role of the TSA is to provide the appearance of security, with the ancillary benefit of being able to be more vigilant to those security measures required before September 2001. Actually delivering security against terrorist attack would require different processes and procedures, which are well documented and tested in other parts of the world, but are not the focus of the TSA.

and YOUR credentials to say that? What happens directly with the public is a very small part of the overall secruity role of the TSA and other groups.....

There has not been a terrorist attack on an airline originating from the United States since September 2001; however, many of the more draconian requirements have been mandated years after the initial engagement. In addition, these enhanced requirements were not based on any actionable intelligence or imminent threat to airline safety; rather, they were implemented due to actions of terrorists on aircraft, which originated outside of our nation. To that end and based on the lack of evidence suggesting these enhancements and the TSA are at all effective, it stands to reason that we should be relaxing security and instead focusing our money and attention toward those efforts that would be effective in stemming the tide of a future terrorist attack.

again your proof?.credentials to say that?........Maybe just maybe the fact we have the secruity we have may have forcesd the terroriest to not weven try and take down a plane. Not to mention you have no idea if there has been any planned attacks or if TSA, FBI, CIA etc have stopped it early on...How ever I will tell you are far off the mark in this statement.

These are my thoughts. I don't consider myself anti-security or anti-TSA, but the empirical evidence of the agency's lack of
You are entitled to have your opinion.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:26 PM   #22
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According to the TSA blog, 381 of their employees have been terminated for theft. They have not published how many more have resigned rather than be terminated. We have not counted the number of bad apples that were fired or resigned for other types of criminal behavior, nor have we counted the any of the TSA employees that were suspended and returned to work based upon illegal or inappropriate activities. Then there are those TSA employees that got away with their misdeeds. Putting thes together gets us to a number of "bad apples" well in excess of 381 - maybe 10 times as many.

You cite 34,000 TSA employees, 0.1% (what you suggest is the "number of bad apples") of that would only be 34 . . . you significantly underestimate the "bad apples."
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:28 PM   #23
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According to the TSA blog, 381 of their employees have been terminated for theft. They have not published how many more have resigned rather than be terminated. We have not counted the number of bad apples that were fired or resigned for other types of criminal behavior, nor have we counted the any of the TSA employees that were suspended and returned to work based upon illegal or inappropriate activities. Then there are those TSA employees that got away with their misdeeds. Putting thes together gets us to a number of "bad apples" well in excess of 381 - maybe 10 times as many.

You cite 34,000 TSA employees, 0.1% (what you suggest is the "number of bad apples") of that would only be 34 . . . you significantly underestimate the "bad apples."
You are talking about years.........not last year like I was...........TSA started 11 years ago....381 divided by 11 is 34 or .1%................

bad behavor?....not caught?? There maybe a few....but as usuall you are condmeming people without any knowledge additional problems...

Still not alot of problem bad apples............certainly no reason to call the TSA folks names as you have in past posts.

In any case all my other facts stand......and most folk here know your vendeta againist the TSA and don't pay any attention any more.!

I have proved my point........


AKK

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Old 10-05-2012, 11:13 PM   #24
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TSA does have high turnover. But not close to the 100% annual you need to get to your numbers.

The theft problem along with the other abuses has gotten so bad that legislators on both sides of the aisle in DC are calling for investigations. About the only bipartisan activity in that entire body.

ABC found a thief in 10 trials, do you really believe that the 381 thieves discovered and fired are the only crooks out there in TSA?
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:58 AM   #25
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TSA does have high turnover. But not close to the 100% annual you need to get to your numbers.

The theft problem along with the other abuses has gotten so bad that legislators on both sides of the aisle in DC are calling for investigations. About the only bipartisan activity in that entire body.

ABC found a thief in 10 trials, do you really believe that the 381 thieves discovered and fired are the only crooks out there in TSA?

Turnover..???.....it was 381 people over 11 years........that 34 a year....simple math.

Ho come on..........even you can't believe the congress stuff................a few congressman and 1 senator called for investigations, all mugging for camera time!...............a year ago..................lets see now................gee...... 1 set of 2 hearings,those crooks in congress smiling for all the camera time they could get.......TSA came in and proved thier methods and systems......how many changes were reqiured??...............NONE!..........gee......m aybe the congress people were being elected?......trying to get votes by making issues and then not doing anything..YES!


You keep saying things as so bad, yet the figures....even by your figures...its not Bad. Is there some bad apples...yes....but not anywhere near the amount that you keep saying it is..........lets be honest tripp, if it were,the whole US traveling public would be yelling.............yet we only keep hearing a select few that keep rattling off the same statments over and over,thinking if they do people may beleive them.....I remember another group in the 1930's/1940's that tryed that!

I want my family as safe as possible and that is what is happening now........with time it will get better........TSA is always making changes and hopefully is reducing the thiefs, I cant say that for sure as I don't have the yearly figures.....but for now its the best we have.

Qiute frankly I think we all would be doing the nation a better service is we looked harder at the thiefs in and corruption happening in Congress!

AKK

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:08 AM   #26
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:30 PM   #27
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While I do understand that the TSA has employees that are less than honest, I think it's unfair to tarnish an entire group of people because of some less than honest employees. Understand, I am sure there are plenty of instances of theft out there....and some of it is due to passenger stupidity...not trying to make excuses, but really??? I stood, at the end of the conveyor belt at security at Logan 10 days ago. My dh was talking to some lady, who was just standing there, prior to going through the scanner. Seems she decided, after putting her Coach bag on the belt, that she wanted a pat down, not go through the scanner. She must have been standing there for about 5 mins....just stood there. Finally, a TSA person asked her what she was waiting for. She then told them she refused to go through the scanner and wanted a pat down!!! Not sure why she didn't feel the need to speak up rather than just stand there, telling people to go ahead of her. And then she started complaining that her Coach bag had done through without her!!! And I have to say, I never saw it. But then again, she had been standing there for a bit before I went through the scanner. Why in heaven's name would someone be stupid enough to put their belongings on the conveyor belt if they weren't going along with it??? Don't know if they ever found the bag...but that doesn't mean it was a TSA employee, it could easily have been another passenger!!!

But, I have to say that I had the nicest TSA people, on both ends of my trip...San Diego and Boston. I have to assume that the vast majority of them are honest people.

So, can we please stop casting aspersions on an entire group of people based on a small percentage of the group???
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
snip
.....I remember another group in the 1930's/1940's that tryed that!
snip

I want my family as safe as possible and that is what is happening now........with time it will get better........TSA is always making changes and hopefully is reducing the thiefs, I cant say that for sure as I don't have the yearly figures.....but for now its the best we have.

snip

AKK
Exactly what are you asserting in the part that I bolded? If it's what I suspect, it's an interesting way to defend meembers of a government agency that inspects our ID papers before permitting us to travel domestically.

Sure, we all want to be safe . . . life is risky and so is freedom.

We really have no idea how many bad apples are out there in TSA uniforms. TSA only recently released any firing figures and that was in response to getting stung by the media.

Also, remember that TSA refused to testify before congressional committees when they ddidn't like the topic or some of the other witnesses.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:48 PM   #29
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While I do understand that the TSA has employees that are less than honest, I think it's unfair to tarnish an entire group of people because of some less than honest employees. Understand, I am sure there are plenty of instances of theft out there....and some of it is due to passenger stupidity...not trying to make excuses, but really??? I stood, at the end of the conveyor belt at security at Logan 10 days ago. My dh was talking to some lady, who was just standing there, prior to going through the scanner. Seems she decided, after putting her Coach bag on the belt, that she wanted a pat down, not go through the scanner. She must have been standing there for about 5 mins....just stood there. Finally, a TSA person asked her what she was waiting for. She then told them she refused to go through the scanner and wanted a pat down!!! Not sure why she didn't feel the need to speak up rather than just stand there, telling people to go ahead of her. And then she started complaining that her Coach bag had done through without her!!! And I have to say, I never saw it. But then again, she had been standing there for a bit before I went through the scanner. Why in heaven's name would someone be stupid enough to put their belongings on the conveyor belt if they weren't going along with it??? Don't know if they ever found the bag...but that doesn't mean it was a TSA employee, it could easily have been another passenger!!!

But, I have to say that I had the nicest TSA people, on both ends of my trip...San Diego and Boston. I have to assume that the vast majority of them are honest people.

So, can we please stop casting aspersions on an entire group of people based on a small percentage of the group???
It seems somewhat disingenuous to complain about some of us saying there are more bad apples in the ranks of the airport secuurity screeners than TSA/DHS leadership acknowledges. That's what is being said, not aspersions about the entire group. After all anyone who wants to travel on a commercial airplane is treated as a terrorist until a government official decides they are not.

We all know that there are dishonest airport secuurity screeners who have not been caught. The only real question is how many? Why don't the airport security screeners have their bags searched when they are leaving the checkpoint?

And it's plain wrong to blame any passenger for the dishonesty of any airport security screener. I am certain that you know that there are lots of times when TSA employees separate travellers from their belongings during the security search process. You put your stuff on the belt and an airport security screener prevents or delays you from passing through. If you are going to get a patdown (whether voluntary or involuntary) you will be told to wait in a specific spot. A good portion of the security checkpoints are set up so that you can not see you property from where you are forced wait. And guess what? If you complain about not seeing your stuff, you a likeely to get hassled and further delayed.
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:02 PM   #30
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Exactly what are you asserting in the part that I bolded? If it's what I suspect, it's an interesting way to defend meembers of a government agency that inspects our ID papers before permitting us to travel domestically.

Sure, we all want to be safe . . . life is risky and so is freedom.

We really have no idea how many bad apples are out there in TSA uniforms. TSA only recently released any firing figures and that was in response to getting stung by the media.

Also, remember that TSA refused to testify before congressional committees when they ddidn't like the topic or some of the other witnesses.

I was refering to people who keep repeating the same lie over and over becuase people will start to beleive it!.just what you do here over and over.....

Checking the papers becuase a person, by their own request,is wanting to fly is not the Nazis, or dictatorship or communist regeme checking papers on every street corner..please read your history

Committees?.......no...no my dear....there was only 1 actual committee.........lots of *WE will be having hearing*..but only 1 had them and that was 2 meetings that TSDA explained there rules and resons and no changes were reqiured by the committee.....not even try at changing anything.

What you are refering to was a meeting to set up the agenda for the hearing.......TSA had some reqiurements which was agreed to.


Just your usual congressal thiefs and crooks looking for votes over a none issue!

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