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Old 09-05-2012, 05:48 PM   #61
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Glad it's postponed

I'm glad it's post-poned. Now maybe Disney will have the money to do other expansions. James Cameron is notorious for running waaaaaay over film budgets. Avatar was basically "Dances with Wolves" in space, I would rather see real animals and real cultures. I like the idea of an Australia land that a previous poster mentioned.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:09 PM   #62
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Since clearly 99% of you missed this post, Here it is again. READ IT

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilferk View Post
Hold on, everybody.

If you trace the threads back through the entire rats nest, from the article quoted above, to the original IGN article, to the original source (an Indiewire Playlist article)...you'll see something very interesting.

Their entire reason for saying the AK Avatar project is delayed is....they expected to see concept art by now. That's it. Their whole reasoning. Not that they've talked to anyone at Disney or WDI or in the Cameron camp. That they haven't seen concept art.

Now, maybe it's true...maybe the project has been put on the back burner/delayed. But I'm not sure the reasoning behind THIS stream of articles is all that solid.
It is NOT postponed or cancelled.

At least not yet. Until we get word from a source that is 9/10 times right or from Disney themselves assume it's all going forward as planned.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ASteelersMidget View Post
Since clearly 99% of you missed this post, Here it is again. READ IT



It is NOT postponed or cancelled.

At least not yet. Until we get word from a source that is 9/10 times right or from Disney themselves assume it's all going forward as planned.
wow. that is pretty rude.
Apparently you missed my post about wanting to dream. BTW, this is the rumors part of the board isn't it?
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:52 PM   #64
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wow. that is pretty rude.
Apparently you missed my post about wanting to dream. BTW, this is the rumors part of the board isn't it?
I saw it. That's why I said 99%

As for being the rumors board it is but when I see so many posts treating it as fact it just bothers me. The reason is it bothers me is it IS a rumors board.

As for whether this happens or not I don't want it to happen. I HATED Avatar and I disgusted how much money it grossed. I'd be more than happy for it to be cancelled (as long as it's not replaced by Cars Land(don't even get me started on cars land))
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:53 PM   #65
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I do kind of hope avatarland is the next Hyperion Wharf

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Old 09-06-2012, 05:10 AM   #66
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I would much rather see Australia or some other part of the world that hasn't been showcased by either AK or EPCOT yet.
Another vote for Australia!
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:07 AM   #67
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Yes you have to invest to get profit and Universal bloomed with HP. it brought not only profit but new visitors, something Disney would die to get, why do you think they are building new rooms, to fill them. So yes, they lost opportunity to earn.
What new rooms are they building?

AOA? Catering to a different demo (families of 5 looking for more affordable options)...and making use of space that was, at least partially, already built out. Also, by and large, panned for it's pricing structure.

DVC? Because they're more profitable (based on opportunity $$) than regular hotel rooms. It's been one of the most profitable arms at Disney in recent years.

Are there any actual new hotel rooms being built, now? Not AOA sections remaining to be opened...but new construction.

Neither recent project really has to do with bringing more folks into the parks. It has to do with enticing people who are staying elsewhere to stay on Disney property. They're seeing steady park attendance increases, already.

The point is: I don't think they think (and I'm not sure I do) that WWOHP would have provided them with a significant boost in PROFITS...especially when considering the demands and restrictions being imposed by JK. I'm not sure they see a source of revenue that outweighed the investment and hurdles they would have to jump through to get it. It definitely wasn't a slam dunk.


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Yes they are gorillas but they are not only players, which became obvious with Universal and HP project was exactly what they want, money. They do not have enough ideas to bring new customers, therefore open doors for outside world and benefit from it.
IOA saw a 30% increase in attendance in 2010 and again in 2011....of course, their attendance in 2008 and 2009 had dropped, considerably, so those percentages look a lot more impressive than they might, otherwise.

Guess how much that effected the 5 Disney parks? Zip, zero, nada. No drops in attendance...and some actual growth (comparable to years past). In addtion, IOA has not jumped ahead of any of the Disney parks in terms of attendance numbers/rankings.

No quantifiable changes.

They don't need to be the only players. They are the biggest. They're making record profits. They're increasing per capita guest spending. It sure seems like they're doing just fine without WWOHP.

Charges of "not enough ideas" aren't translating into anything quantifiable. When (or, rather, if) they do, THEN Disney will act (react). At least that's their SOP under Iger.

Quote:
I am actually talking from business perspective, they kept attendance high by constant discounts and offers. People of course will go as long as kids are born but if place becomes boring to slightly older generation like teens and above, there is a problem. A family with teens will split stay with Universal or other places and this is money they could leave at Disney. FLE will not bring new customers and HP would, that is the whole difference.
Universal has offered discounts, too...even with WWOHP. Most of them during slower seasons (just like Disney). Remember ,the economy still stinks...but Disney isn't feeling much of a pinch. Given their filings...those discounts aren't doing much to effect their bottom line.

But there are ways to reinvest in the parks, drive attendance, and not get in bed with another franchise (and, specifically, HP). They are not Six Flags. They have enough of their own IP's, IP's that are underutilized (most of their Pixar IP's, for example) that could easily have as much effect (at a drastically better financials...because no licensing fees and Disney keeps all the revenue generated) on their bottom line.

And that's what they care about.

As for a family with teens doing split stays....if that were to happen, you'd think that suddenly park attendance at WDW would drop. They haven't. You'd think the average guest length of stay would drop. From the information we have, it hasn't. You'd think revenue and profits would tank. Not so. You'd think room occupancy would drastically drop. It hasn't.

There's no actual evidence that what you say will happen is actually happening. In fact, given the numbers...it looks like a pretty good bet that it's not having the effect you suggest.

On your last sentence....we don't know that yet. FLE isn't open. Neither of us has seen it, and the crowds haven't had access to it (nor has it yet had an effect on attendance or room bookings). YOU can think it's true (and it might be true for your family)....we'll see what happens with MK attendance in 2013. I suspect you'll be pretty surprised, given just the furor around these boards about FLE...and the way I suspect Disney is going to market the heck out of it.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:50 AM   #68
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clearly very few here ever wanted avatarland (myself included), so i hope disney listens to the fans and saves themselves some money to spend elsewhere. I didn't see the movie, don't really care to make a point to, and have no interest in future installments. To me, it's kind of conservation sci-fi. That doesn't seem to have much to do with the prevailing animal nature (no pun intended) of ak. Plus, to point out the obvious, it's not a cartoon. While i'm sure there are a fair number of couples and singles that visit wdw, their biggest demographic is obviously families ... Particularly those with young children. I think they've gotta stick with the cartoons because that's what's served them well. I can't imagine anyone going to ak for avatarland. Visit it b/c it's there, sure. And i have no doubt imagineering could do amazing things with just about any theme, but i'd rather see them put that energy elsewhere. How about something with the jungle book in the animal vein? Granted, it's old but it's a classic. Avatar - i don't see it becoming a "classic." sequels doesn't always mean classic. Cartoons, which are more timeless, seem to have more longevity in almost every case.

Incidentally, i so wish wdw would've done harry potter for 2 reasons: 1) i prefer the disney parks - hp (and seuss landing) are my main reasons to visit universal ioa and 2) even though i think universal did a fantastic job with the hp world, i have to think that disney's imagineering could have even trumped that.
clearly?
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:58 AM   #69
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clearly?
I keep seeing post after post from people who who are poo-pooing Avatarland. The overall vibe seems to be relief that they may be bagging it. Just an observation.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:05 AM   #70
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In an article today from WDWMagic which was citing a story from IGN, it seems that the Avatarland project at WDW is being delayed for now . .



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Old 09-06-2012, 10:55 AM   #71
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I heard from a 100% unreliable source that Universal is replacing their Marvel area with Avatarland and Disney is gonna but a marvel park next to AK!

I mean, while we are all dreaming and stuff :P
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:11 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by pilferk View Post
What new rooms are they building?

1. AOA? Catering to a different demo (families of 5 looking for more affordable options)...and making use of space that was, at least partially, already built out. Also, by and large, panned for it's pricing structure.

2. The point is: I don't think they think (and I'm not sure I do) that WWOHP would have provided them with a significant boost in PROFITS...especially when considering the demands and restrictions being imposed by JK. I'm not sure they see a source of revenue that outweighed the investment and hurdles they would have to jump through to get it. It definitely wasn't a slam dunk.

3. IOA saw a 30% increase in attendance in 2010 and again in 2011....of course, their attendance in 2008 and 2009 had dropped, considerably, so those percentages look a lot more impressive than they might, otherwise.

4. Guess how much that effected the 5 Disney parks? Zip, zero, nada. No drops in attendance...and some actual growth (comparable to years past). In addtion, IOA has not jumped ahead of any of the Disney parks in terms of attendance numbers/rankings.

No quantifiable changes.

5. They don't need to be the only players. They are the biggest. They're making record profits. They're increasing per capita guest spending. It sure seems like they're doing just fine without WWOHP.

6. Universal has offered discounts, too...even with WWOHP. Most of them during slower seasons (just like Disney). Remember ,the economy still stinks...but Disney isn't feeling much of a pinch. Given their filings...those discounts aren't doing much to effect their bottom line.


7. As for a family with teens doing split stays....if that were to happen, you'd think that suddenly park attendance at WDW would drop. They haven't. You'd think the average guest length of stay would drop. From the information we have, it hasn't. You'd think revenue and profits would tank. Not so. You'd think room occupancy would drastically drop. It hasn't.

There's no actual evidence that what you say will happen is actually happening. In fact, given the numbers...it looks like a pretty good bet that it's not having the effect you suggest.

8. On your last sentence....we don't know that yet. FLE isn't open. Neither of us has seen it, and the crowds haven't had access to it (nor has it yet had an effect on attendance or room bookings). YOU can think it's true (and it might be true for your family)....we'll see what happens with MK attendance in 2013. I suspect you'll be pretty surprised, given just the furor around these boards about FLE...and the way I suspect Disney is going to market the heck out of it.

1. AOA does provide new rooms, regardless for families or not. They also have regular rooms and what do you think will happen to all rooms released by larger families. No matter how you twist it, those are new rooms.

2. How do you know? It provided boost for Universal, more important it brought new people(HP fans), some of those who never even been to Universal. HP is a chance to get new customers and those customers could be with Disney, that is the point.

3. Was decrease as much as 30%? Granted it was slow right before HP, construction, some people were holding trips till grand opening but regardless, there was increase and significant and point is Disney could have it.

4. Who said anything about drop in Disney attendance because of HP? I am talking about lost opportunity to get more people and more profit.

5. Being biggest does not mean to relax and ignore competition and they actually don't. FLE was literally answer to HP and not successful answer, just something they came out with fast, without putting much in it.

6. Yes, they did offered discounts but year round like Disney those few years, free dining, GG, 5/2, kids free, do not even remember all of them but those few years probably nobody paid full price as you could almost always find some discount and according to boards, some people were and are going only because of it.

7. I did not say it happened all of the sudden so no, you will not see drop out of the blue. However, it is constantly happening, Disney ignoring teens and those who wants to see more wild rides and considering many families have both kinds of kids/members they do split stays, evident from this very board. If Disney payed more attention to this, they could keep this money.

8. I agree we did not see it but my point there is nothing new. I do not think there are many people who usually do not go to Disney and know princesses are there, thanks to all commercials, all of the sudden see there FLE and go, why? It is not something new like HP, it is old, same Disney princesses put together. Will attendance increase, yes it will, because just like with Universal, some were holding their trips for few years, but will new people come like for HP, not a chance.

With all being said, I believe Disney made a mistake with HP, maybe it would not be easy to work with JK, they would have to invest more then just building few meet and greets but benefit would be much greater and well worth it.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:51 AM   #73
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I am apparently the only person here who actually really liked Avatar. I think that, yes, it has been done before just as everyone has said, but really? Is it possible to try to drill into people's heads too many times that killing the planet for resources and ignoring the wildlife and plantlife that are being destroyed is important to be avoided? The movie was beautiful and moving and for those of us who it helped remind about conservation it had that added effect.

That being said, it would be hard to do really well to the point that it would excite me as a land. So many of the things in it were so alien and huge that it would be hard to recreate unless it was a screen. I am so sick of sitting in seats and watching a screen it isn't even funny. Also, the center of the movie is a giant tree, which I am pretty sure AK already has. So while I liked the movie, I don't neccessarily think it is a bad idea for this expansion to become something else.

I have a couple of friends who do an act and one of their lines before they show their whip stunts is to this extent "be careful not to get to close, you might lose an eye. Then you would have to watch Avatar in 2D. Which is just Ferngully." I think that is the best analogy I have heard of any movie. hahahaha.

Lastly, I live in Los Angeles, I have a year pass to DL. I have been to our Cars Land... It isn't as exciting as I had hoped. So I hope that when WDW does it, it is bigger and better. It is gorgeous to look at, the theming is wonderful. However, the major ride is simply test track lite, with the cars on it. Beautiful but not insanely new and exciting. The other two rides are cute rides for the younger set. I have been on them both and enjoyed them but with as long as the lines are, they are in the end kids type rides. The air tires is slow going and needs people to be able to lean in all directions to move it. The less weight the better. Most of the area is shops with Cars merchandise. Cute stuff actually, but I would have liked to see another big ride instead. That all being stated, the food stands that are in the Cones are AWESOME!!!!! Each stand has atleast one signature drink (one even has an alcoholic one) and every one I have tried was yummy. The chili-cone-carne is adorable too and everyone I have seen seems to love it. Sorry just had to throw in my thoughts since going.

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At first i thought it was a cool idea but after thinking about ti more I'm kind of hopping that it is not done. If anything, Disney should focus on getting Pleasure Island back to something that is "pleasurable" to visit.

One of the BIG problems Disney has dragging their feet on things. Avatar was out SOOOOO long ago. While there IS a sequel in the works I find it hard to place a fictional planet in a Theme Park centered on "earths" beauty, nature, and animals.

Cars , Brave, Avengers, MORE Lion King! Oz the great and Powerful, national treasure
I would like to second the Pleasure Island idea! Bring back the Adventurer's club please? I know it is probably a long shot but my best friend is so sad he never got to go. I miss it so.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:52 AM   #74
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1. AOA does provide new rooms, regardless for families or not. They also have regular rooms and what do you think will happen to all rooms released by larger families. No matter how you twist it, those are new rooms.
I didn't say they weren't new rooms. I asked "what new rooms" and specifically addressed the only two possibilites. Neither of which is really there to try to lure NEW people to Orlando. They're designed to cater to people who are already coming and staying elsewhere.

The point was, if you re-read what I wrote, that those "new rooms" aren't designed to bring in new (as in, new visitors to Orlando) visitors. They were designed to cater to an under-serviced demographic (families of 5) in Disney's hotel offerings.


Quote:
2. How do you know? It provided boost for Universal, more important it brought new people(HP fans), some of those who never even been to Universal. HP is a chance to get new customers and those customers could be with Disney, that is the point.
Because Disney walked away and didn't do it. If it had been, in their estimation, worthwhile....you'd have WWOHP at WDW.

Which is significantly more evidence than you have, actually.

Quote:
3. Was decrease as much as 30%? Granted it was slow right before HP, construction, some people were holding trips till grand opening but regardless, there was increase and significant and point is Disney could have it.
No, but it was significant enough that 30% increases don't look nearly as impressive when taking them into account the declines. They are certainly seeing record attendance....but still less than AK or DHS does (by 2 million-ish guests...9.6 million-ish at AK or DHS vs 7.7 million at IOA), and those are widely considered half day/incomplete parks. IOA as at 5.7 million in 2007. So, in 4 years, they've seen an actual increase of 2 million guests....and still trail the closest Disney park by 2 million more.

I'm not saying WWOHP hasn't worked for Universal. It has. But they NEEDED it, really. Disney didn't.

As evidenced by the continuing growth of the WDW parks attendance and the lack of any "slippage" as a result of WWOHP

As an aside, IOA hasn't helped USF much, at all. They're STILL below 2008 attendance levels...which means, likely, some of IOA's increase is actually at the expense of USF.

Quote:
4. Who said anything about drop in Disney attendance because of HP? I am talking about lost opportunity to get more people and more profit.
How else would you measure your claim that people are doing "split stays" or that IOA is now making a significant differeance in the Orlando Tourism market? Or this claim "They do not have enough ideas to bring new customers, therefore open doors for outside world and benefit from it. " And your insistence Universal/HP is some sort of "danger" to the way Disney is doing things?

So far, no quantifiable effect TO DISNEY.

Quote:
5. Being biggest does not mean to relax and ignore competition and they actually don't. FLE was literally answer to HP and not successful answer, just something they came out with fast, without putting much in it.
Again, how can you measure that FLE isn't successful when it hasn't opened yet. Answer is: You can't.

There are ways to continue to reinvest in your parks and not sign on to HP. Disney is doing it. The success of those investments...we'll have to wait and see. But they're not stagnating, so trying to argue that HP is/was their only option (or even the slam dunk, obvious, best option) is simply not true.

Quote:
6. Yes, they did offered discounts but year round like Disney those few years, free dining, GG, 5/2, kids free, do not even remember all of them but those few years probably nobody paid full price as you could almost always find some discount and according to boards, some people were and are going only because of it.
And Disney's bottom line actually got better, not worse. Interesting, no?

Universal offers their fare share of discounts, on their lodgings and the like, too. The difference is: They don't have the sheer amount of hotel rooms Disney does...nor do they have the sheer amount of demand that Disney does. You're going to hear a lot more about Disney Discounts with their tens of thousands of rooms vs Universal with it's few thousand-ish. Especially on Disney-centric boards.

Quote:
7. I did not say it happened all of the sudden so no, you will not see drop out of the blue. However, it is constantly happening, Disney ignoring teens and those who wants to see more wild rides and considering many families have both kinds of kids/members they do split stays, evident from this very board. If Disney payed more attention to this, they could keep this money.
But you'd see SOME drop. Incremental, minute, but it would exist. And it would continue to trend over time. So simply saying "it's constantly happening" doesn't prove anything. I'm sure it happens with SOME families. Obviously not enough to make much of a difference, though. Simply look at the numbers.

Anecdotal evidence of some families, on these boards, does not make it any sort of mass exodus.

Which means it's not enough to worry Disney.

Quote:
8. I agree we did not see it but my point there is nothing new. I do not think there are many people who usually do not go to Disney and know princesses are there, thanks to all commercials, all of the sudden see there FLE and go, why? It is not something new like HP, it is old, same Disney princesses put together. Will attendance increase, yes it will, because just like with Universal, some were holding their trips for few years, but will new people come like for HP, not a chance.

In your opinion. But realize...it's just that.

We'll see if total attendance (meaning MK+AK+Epcot+DHS) increases in 2013...if it does, you'll know you were wrong.

What you need to realize is this: Disney does not care, so long as they are making more money than they were before FLE. I'll bet they will be.

The other problem with your point is this: You're basically saying Disney should do something else, that's not Disney, because it's new and not Disney. That's wrongheaded. Disney has built in marketing for their own stuff. They don't pay anyone else licensing fees, and they have complete creative control. It's the whole point behind having DISNEY parks. Yes, it's more princesses, etc. That's the point. And it seems to have worked quite well for them over the past 40-ish years, no?

Quote:
With all being said, I believe Disney made a mistake with HP, maybe it would not be easy to work with JK, they would have to invest more then just building few meet and greets but benefit would be much greater and well worth it.
All your opinion.

Disney obviously disagreed with you. After all their internal analysis, with all the data they have at their disposal, and with all those guest surveys they do...they didn't agree.

I'm inclined to think they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:10 PM   #75
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...
All your opinion.

Disney obviously disagreed with you. After all their internal analysis, with all the data they have at their disposal, and with all those guest surveys they do...they didn't agree.

I'm inclined to think they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.
to you for supporting your arguments with solid evidence. Too many people on this board like to believe they know the reasons behind certain decisions and/or every single factor that goes into making big decisions such as theme park expansions.
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