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Old 09-09-2012, 10:35 PM   #76
Peter Pirate 2
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Originally Posted by CandyMandy View Post
Maybe it's just me, but the above seems to basically translate into "style over substance." Don't worry about having a genre that has proven longevity and is of interest to broad audiences (neither of which Avatar has to yet to show). Just make sure you have lots of attractions with gimmicky virtual this-or-that or that "Avatar-land" features a big, big coaster.

Heck, that's what Six Flags does. And they sell a lot of tickets, don't they?
Sorry, I had to come back because it seems to me it is you who is buying into the whole "synergy" concept of current Disney, which ultimately cheapens the experience potential and stifles creativity.

What do you think is great about Disney. The fact that their rides, attractions, hotels and merchandise are salable to the masses? Not me. POC, HM and others have stood the test of time with no synergistic connection until current Disney mooches off their success!

Quality will always win out and Avatar is the type of franchise that offers imagineers so many directions of creativity regardless of how good the vehicle may or nay not be. So although the driving force for Avatar is synergistic, which I disagree with, the product itself lends itself to a myriad of possibility that Disney can, if done right, make their own.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:08 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
Wow. You couldn't be more off with what I said.

Quality trumps all is my point. It doesn't matter if the land is Bushwood CC as long as it is done to Disney quality because the guests ultimately don't care what the package looks like nearly as much as what is inside the package.
WIth all due respect, I don't feel I'm off at all. You are saying the "theme" (package) doesn't matter but then say what's "in" the package does. The point I and many others here are making is that Avatar as it stands it is a thin foundation for Disney to work with, as far as developing truly engaging "contents." That is certainly true when Avatar-land is compared to what Universal had to work with when they were developing the "contents" for Harry Potter.

Or put another way, in planning an entire theme park land, the breadth and depth of the range of characters and backstories matters -- and matters deeply.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:26 PM   #78
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Two points....

You can establish that Harry Potter has taken a bite out of Disney's bottom line. Look at the past two years of Magical Express ridership data. It has decreased a bit each year. What has changed? Harry Potter. More folks are coming to Orlando and renting a car, even if they are staying at Disney, because they know they are going to need a car to get over to US for a day or two. If they are renting cars while staying on Disney property, they don't need Magical Express and ridership numbers go down. Which is what has happened for two consecutive years now.
Not addressing the HP relation, but simply the ME portion.

It's an interesting point...but the problem is this:

A) It's not really quantifiable, for the Disney execs, because they could care less about fewer people using a free (aka built into room rate) service they provide. Their concern, indirectly, would be that those guests are no longer "hostages" on WDW property. See point C, below.

B) We don't know WHY ridership is decreasing. They've also changed their effective hours, in terms of luggage delivery. Reports are that the rides, themselves, have declined in quality (and increased in duration). And we don't know if rental car rates have drastically changed. In other words...we don't know the cause.

C) The bottom line quantifiables (attendance, profit, guest spending) aren't showing any softening....which means that even if ME isn't getting the guests to WDW...they're still getting there and spending more money.

As an aside: You can hire a mears shuttle or a taxi at any WDW hotel to bring you to any theme park in the greater Orlando area that you want. You could take ME and still leave WDW...likely for less than the cost of a rental car for your whole trip.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:21 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by CandyMandy View Post
The point I and many others here are making is that Avatar as it stands it is a thin foundation for Disney to work with, as far as developing truly engaging "contents." That is certainly true when Avatar-land is compared to what Universal had to work with when they were developing the "contents" for Harry Potter.

Or put another way, in planning an entire theme park land, the breadth and depth of the range of characters and backstories matters -- and matters deeply.
It's a risk vs. reward situation.

If Disney were to wait on a second or third film--and see Avatar more fully develop as a franchise--they could be facing licensing fees 2-3x what the current agreement calls for. Or they could run the risk of a competitor reaching an agreement with Cameron.

There aren't a lot of major franchises which are unspoken for. Universal, Disney, Six Flags, Cedar Fair and others already have a lot of them locked-up (Pooh, Star Wars, Indy, HP, Marvel, Terminator, Transformers, Dr Seuss.) US obviously has dibs on anything that Universal Studios puts out (Jurassic Park, Despicable Me, Mummy, ET and all future stuff.) For competitive reasons, Disney isn't going to touch anything from Dreamworks Animation, DC Comics and some others. And I'm sure there are studios and property-owners who are reluctant to work with Disney for a variety of reasons like the Tolkien family as another poster mentioned.

I think an expanded Star Wars presence makes all the sense in the world for DHS. But it's such a no-brainer that the fact it hasn't happened suggests G. Lucas is putting up roadblocks.

I still have yet to watch Avatar all the way through but everything I've read suggests that themes of conservation and respecting one's environment play large roles in the film--things which are also at the foundation of DAK.

Personally I'd rather see some details about the proposed expansion before labeling it a bad idea.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:28 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by CandyMandy View Post
WIth all due respect, I don't feel I'm off at all. You are saying the "theme" (package) doesn't matter but then say what's "in" the package does. The point I and many others here are making is that Avatar as it stands it is a thin foundation for Disney to work with, as far as developing truly engaging "contents." That is certainly true when Avatar-land is compared to what Universal had to work with when they were developing the "contents" for Harry Potter.

Or put another way, in planning an entire theme park land, the breadth and depth of the range of characters and backstories matters -- and matters deeply.
The thing with Avatar is that Cameron reportedly did create a whole backstory and immersive world when he created the setting for his movie, That creative world just didn't come across in the first film due to the nature and narrative within the first movie.

To give some perspective, Look at what Lucas supposedly had with the first Star Wars film. (which oddly enough, seems to be what most anti-Avatar people want instead). Lucas, according to reports, before building the first star wars movie, came up with an outline of the whole backstory for Darth Vader (Anakin Skywalker), the clone wars, etc. That backstory was just used to help set up the events within "Star Wars", but at the time, wasn't really expanded upon or given a place for fans of the movie to understand how much work was done in the prep for the film. It's in part, because of this backstory, That when the decision to do Empire was made, the First movie was renamed 'Episode 4: A New Hope'.

Interestingly enough.... If you REALLY want to get into it, The first Star Wars movie was also a really pretty looking movie that had a pretty cheesy space-opera type storyline that was the first of it's kind [in many respects] visually that did really well in the theater, and prompted a ton of imitators. By itself, who knows if it would've had the following it has today.... but the 2 sequels that came out after helped to expand he franchise into the cult following it has today. For all we know, Avatar COULD potentially follow a similar trajectory with it's cheesy plot in the first film that looked really impressive, prompted a ton of imitators [the need to 3d everything], and the sequels helping to flesh out the universe created for the film so that as a whole it's not that bad of a franchise. Of course, it could just be a pretty looking flash in the pan... but I think it might be unfair to call it something without any ability to last the test of time when it's still relatively new. (Hell.. we had what? 5yrs between Star Wars and Empire?)
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:41 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by CandyMandy View Post
WIth all due respect, I don't feel I'm off at all. You are saying the "theme" (package) doesn't matter but then say what's "in" the package does. The point I and many others here are making is that Avatar as it stands it is a thin foundation for Disney to work with, as far as developing truly engaging "contents." That is certainly true when Avatar-land is compared to what Universal had to work with when they were developing the "contents" for Harry Potter.

Or put another way, in planning an entire theme park land, the breadth and depth of the range of characters and backstories matters -- and matters deeply.
It isn't about the story it is about how the story is presented in theme park fashion.

The mechanics of the HP attraction would have been a stellar crowd pleaser no matter where it was placed and ultimately the superb attraction combined with a lovely package trump whether HP or Avatar were good, great, lousy movies or not.

If the land and attraction's are riviting or compelling the popularity of that land will live regardless of the greatness of the basis or the longevity of the basis.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:24 PM   #82
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I can never understand why Disney chose to invest in Avatar in the first place. I assume that they were drawn in by the huge box office success of the movie, but they seem to be forgetting that the only reason it was such a success was that it was the first movie to do 3D "properly" - now that nearly every movie seems to be in 3D this novelty has worn off and I doubt that the sequel/s will do very well.

I mean, the movie franchise is nothing like, say, Star Wars or Harry Potter that have taken on lives of their own way beyond the movies themselves - I have never really heard anyone talk about Avatar beyond the day after they have watched it.

I hope this rumour is true because I could think of lots of better ways for Disney to spend that money!
You are comparing one movie to 6 and 7 respectively. There is a large geek contingent for Avatar, albeit not as big as Potter and Star Wars. While it might be premature, your statement is absolutely flawed in its logic until the 2nd and 3rd films come out. Very rarely does one movie a franchise make.

I like the concept of Avatarland or at least am intrigued by the possibilities. I'd rather see something Marvel related (but that won't happen) or Star Wars (THAT would be something that could truly stand against Potter land despite Lucas cheapening the Saga), but I'm at least willing to listen to the plans before giving the MASS overreaction that seems to be the Disboards rumors group. Political news media persons overreact less than many of the people who post on these boards.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:36 AM   #83
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While it might be premature, your statement is absolutely flawed in its logic until the 2nd and 3rd films come out. Very rarely does one movie a franchise make.

I agree, It's quite obvious Disney is trying to get in 'at ground level', so to speak. We have no idea what is in store for Avatar 2 or 3, and who knows - Cameron might go the way of 'Beastly Kingdom' for Avatar 3 and everyone might be happy
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:49 AM   #84
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Do you think this will ever be a reality?
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:32 AM   #85
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I love it (OK hate it) how the rumors ARE the news on this one. The few facts that come out are summarily ignored in favor of negative rumors.

Just saw from StichKingdom (what I would consider a reliable source versus the website THIS thread was started on) that they did not renew the contracts for the Festival of the Lion King players, indicating that that show is going to be closed/moved come 2013. Seems like if Pandora isn't coming that this wouldn't be happening. So again, the facts dispute the rumors. But hey, believe the rumors instead.

(I have no doubt the project will be "delayed" from the original timeline. Most every project is, and particularly anything with Jim Cameron's handprints. But I don't remotely buy "Canceled". You can bet Lightstorm put a healthy "pay or play" deal into the contract, which means they get payed should Disney decide not to go ahead with it.

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Old 09-13-2012, 12:16 AM   #86
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... Star Wars (THAT would be something that could truly stand against Potter land despite Lucas cheapening the Saga)
I'm not a SW "fan" by a longshot but I agree completely. I could really see Disney building a cantina with animatronic aliens that interact with guests, and you could go to the bar and order some crazy drinks. I could see another Dumbo type ride (no matter how many ways they make it, they're all my daughter's faves) with perhaps tie fighters. There could be virtual reality pod racing or maybe even a dueling coaster with that theme. The landscapes could be amazing and varied. It would be cool if Disney did an interactive and immersive themed attraction similar to IOA's Triton's Fury. That blew me away the first time through. Photo ops with a real R2D2 ... so many possibilities. And you know SW merchandising would work. Kids love those light sabers! In the hands of the Imagineers, it could definitely be amazing! Of course, it doesn't do anything for AK - it's obviously a HS addition.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:14 AM   #87
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do you think this will ever be a reality?
no
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:33 AM   #88
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I said it when it opened and continue to say it. WWoHP was and is a big boost for Universal but is also a small BOOST for Disney. I personally know several people that have gone to Orlando on vacation that haven't before or in many years.

Yes, more people are tearing a day or two away from their Disney vacation and traveling to Uni. But, in addition there are more people going to Disney because they want to go to Universal for Harry Potter, but really they still only need a few days there, so what do they do with the rest of their time? Why, go to Disney World of course!

Disney is taking a gamble on Avatar. Yes, right now there is one movie. The question is, will it be like getting into the "Star Wars" business in 1979, or will it be like getting into the "Matrix" business in 2001? There are clearly two more movies coming down the line, will those movies grow the franchise or kill the franchise? Disney is gambling that Cameron's track record says they are successful.

I still contend that this land has the potential to be fantastic. The biggest problem I see is that there are really no particularly memorable characters in the movie. However, I foresee the use of an interactive technology where every individual experiencing the attraction has an avatar made of themselves, who then their interface with the attraction. (Seen in reflections throughout the experience.) Imagine a virtual ride like that, everyone sees a version of themselves IN the ride. You can see Disney moving in that direction, and this is the perfect opportunity.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:08 AM   #89
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I, personally, think it makes Disney look like a frightened animal scrambling for anything to hold its ground. I tend not to put much stock in rumors even if I find some more interesting than others. So until the official press release I will choose the skeptic side of the debate. I did not like Avatar, no one can argue about the quality of the visual effects, they were spectacular. However the storyline was quite dull and very predictable. I'm all for Disney trying to bring new fans to the parks by bringing in non-Disney films into the parks. However I agree with the previous posts that LOTR is a far better choice. The 2013 Unofficial Guide states that both WDI and Universal are in talks with Peter Jackson to bring the Rings to their park. I have seen Avatar as well as Rings. Everything about LOTR has me geeked about seeing Hobbit this December. I only watched Avatar because everyone pimped it so much and I had a free redbox code, and was given no reason whatever to go see a sequel whenever it makes it to theaters. I'm sorry, I just don't see Avatar as that "beloved by generations" brand that has the lasting power of Harry Potter or Star Wars. Of all of them that one is the way to go even over Rings. It's already an established draw at DHS, no one would really mind seeing IJSS leaving to make room for Star Wars expansion. There are far more beloved characters, scenes, and locations from Star Wars than from Avatar and Rings combined, and we all know that Lucas can be bought. I'm sure that if Avatarland ever comes if will be very well themed and look amazing. But what else, I don't see Avatar merch flying off the shelves. What will the restaurant serve? What kind of shows can they base off of it?? Is there enough substance in Avatar to warrant an entire land?? My answer to that question is no. So if the rumors turn out to be true I can't say I'm going to be all that upset. Disney can do better. I think Disney has seen the comparison between the buzz from when Universal announced HP land, which was great, then the buzz from their announcement of Avatarland, which has been meh. And are thinking mayhap this has no real traction.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:59 AM   #90
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I, personally, think it makes Disney look like a frightened animal scrambling for anything to hold its ground. I tend not to put much stock in rumors even if I find some more interesting than others. So until the official press release I will choose the skeptic side of the debate. I did not like Avatar, no one can argue about the quality of the visual effects, they were spectacular. However the storyline was quite dull and very predictable. I'm all for Disney trying to bring new fans to the parks by bringing in non-Disney films into the parks. However I agree with the previous posts that LOTR is a far better choice. The 2013 Unofficial Guide states that both WDI and Universal are in talks with Peter Jackson to bring the Rings to their park. I have seen Avatar as well as Rings. Everything about LOTR has me geeked about seeing Hobbit this December. I only watched Avatar because everyone pimped it so much and I had a free redbox code, and was given no reason whatever to go see a sequel whenever it makes it to theaters. I'm sorry, I just don't see Avatar as that "beloved by generations" brand that has the lasting power of Harry Potter or Star Wars. Of all of them that one is the way to go even over Rings. It's already an established draw at DHS, no one would really mind seeing IJSS leaving to make room for Star Wars expansion. There are far more beloved characters, scenes, and locations from Star Wars than from Avatar and Rings combined, and we all know that Lucas can be bought. I'm sure that if Avatarland ever comes if will be very well themed and look amazing. But what else, I don't see Avatar merch flying off the shelves. What will the restaurant serve? What kind of shows can they base off of it?? Is there enough substance in Avatar to warrant an entire land?? My answer to that question is no. So if the rumors turn out to be true I can't say I'm going to be all that upset. Disney can do better. I think Disney has seen the comparison between the buzz from when Universal announced HP land, which was great, then the buzz from their announcement of Avatarland, which has been meh. And are thinking mayhap this has no real traction.
I agree with everything but the first statement. I wouldn't think Disney would be scared b/c Disney's and Universal's markets have overlap but are also different, and they're both in the same location so people can and do visit both. While Universal has obviously seen the biggest boost from HP (as they should), Disney probably has seen residual benefits. I like to think they're just doing smart business by reinvesting in their brand. They can't stay stagnant and expect numbers to climb. Refurbishment, replacement, and expansion is just the normal course of business for them.
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