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#16 | |||
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Knows a little about a lot of things, a lot about nothing.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Knowledge is still the most advantageous item to have in your arsenal when it comes to making consistently good images. It's also by far the cheapest.
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DanielleI've forsaken my crop and gotten a 6D. ISO 25600 is my new BFF. ![]() Last edited by photo_chick; 08-09-2012 at 11:23 AM. |
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#17 | ||
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Survivor
Call me crazy but I prefer the single bath Nothing beats the Magic of a Disney Resort! Will DIS from the Potty Alice, how's it hanging? Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
However (how can I say this?)... I don't think that Quote:
*Perhaps* this one camera *may* be the exception to this rule. I don't know. But having photography knowledge allows the shooter to get the best results they can with *any* camera. KWIM? I personally don't think there will ever be a substitute for knowledge in photography. It takes you from getting a good picture, to getting a great picture. There is no substitution for that.
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#18 | |
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DIS Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,939
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Knowledge is always advantageous. Knowing how to compose a photograph will always be a skill and art. A smart camera will never master that ability. And fully understanding exposure, and its elements, will always be helpful. Helpful is picking how to position your camera, helpful is getting more consistency due to the fallibility of camera computers. And yes, Mastering use of depth of field, etc. I'll never make the claim that an amateur photographer with a good camera can match a photography expert. But the claim I am making -- advances in the technology allow amateurs to take high level photographs, that could only be taken by a professional 10 years ago. If you took an amateur with practically no camera experience... Set the clock to 1999... Told them they could use any camera on the market, to get a low-light photograph of a kid with his birthday candles--- No amateur would be able to get a usable photograph. Take that same set up in 2012, hand them the RX100 in anti-motion blur mode, and most amateurs will take a pretty good usable picture. The quality of an expert in the 1990s... can be approximated by someone with moderate knowledge today. The quality of someone with moderate knowledge in the 1990s, can be approximated by an amateur today. And with advances such as ISO and post-processing that you mentioned, the expert of today can surpass the experts of the 1990s. |
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#19 | |
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DIS Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,939
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Let me compare it to golf --- The professionals rarely get a hole in one. And amateurs are capable of sometimes getting a hole in one. Professionals will do it more often -- they will also birdie holes more often than an amateur, but an amateur will sometimes birdie holes as well. The professional/expert will always be better overall. More consistent. Get a high frequency of better photographs. But technology ups the amateur to a great degree, allowing them to also get more birdies and more holes in one. And exposure being 1 huge element of a great photograph, where technology really helps the amateur. 9 times out of 10, my camera *knows* how to get the best possible exposure, with me doing no work. Okay, the professional knows how to get the best exposure, 10 times out of 10. So the professional is certainly better, but the amateur is going to get some great photographs as well. To continue the golf comparison -- The great golfer needs to be able to hit for distance, being able to aim, account for wind, hills, slopes, needs fine control over putting.... So an amazing camera... umm.. golf club... imagine it gives the same ability to hit for distance as the professional. There are still lots of other factors where the professional exceeds. As I said early, for a photographer, the single biggest element of a good picture is composure of the shot -- which is why a pro with a lousy camera can exceed an amateur with a great camera. |
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#20 |
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Survivor
Call me crazy but I prefer the single bath Nothing beats the Magic of a Disney Resort! Will DIS from the Potty Alice, how's it hanging? Join Date: Jul 2004
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Sorry, have to disagree with much of your last two posts. Too much to quote.
Look, lots of people are reading here, and are going by what's being said because this is where the "experts" are. Further, if I had a buck for every thread where someone is coming here asking about the Holy Grail of point and shoot cameras, I'd be able to have a really fun day somewhere. Clearly people still aren't getting the great shots they want in 2012. So no, I can't agree with your premise. (But it's JMO and take it for what it's worth.) Anyway, IMO you are stating the exception more than the rule. And btw, in the 90s with a 35mm automatic camera, I could get better shots in many conditions than I can today with a digital point and shoot camera, despite my knowing far more about photography today than I did back then. Why? Because the film size was a lot bigger than the tiny sensor in most digital point and shoot cameras of today. I use a 4:3 dSLR and a Mirrorless today and I still need photoraphy knowledge to get good pictures. This can be said even of users of APS-C and full frame sensors. Big disappointment to buyers who think that that will be the key to better pictures to find out they're still not like the ones that make them ooh and aah. Getting those takes work, no matter how you slice it. Composition is important, but there's so much more.
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#21 | |
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DIS Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,939
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But I'll limit this to talking about myself: I used a DSLR since 2006. I've used SLRs for most of my life. I am not an expert, but I am more advanced than most amateurs. The pictures I am taking with the Sony RX100 are *better* than most of the pictures I have taken with my SLR. I am NOT claiming that the RX100 is *better* than a DSLR. I am sure that an expert could do more with a DSLR than the RX100 or any other point and shoot. But as an amateur with moderate photography knowledge (read some books, took a couple of classes, and years and years or practice), I am taking better and more consistent pictures with the RX100. And looking at it primarily as an exposure issue -- I went back to the 600 DSLR pictures I took on my last trip to Disney World. I'd say the exposure is really only correct in about half of them. Some of them can be saved with post processing (I shot in RAW+JPG to have the most options). But I'd rate the exposure as poor on about half the pictures. In contrast, using basically automated settings on the RX100, my exposure has been nearly perfect in about 95 out of the 100 pictures I've taken. Including low light, including macro. Pictures that I needed a tripod for with the DSLR, are coming out beautifully with the RX100. Now, I don't like the way I'm sounding... I sound like a television commercial for this product, I sound like a paid sponsor. And I think before this camera, you would have been correct in advising people, that NO point & shoot will ever give you the quality of a DSLR. But this camera honestly is a game changer. In the hands of a professional or expert, I still agree that a DSLR will give you better performance than any point & shoot. But in the hands of a layperson, even in the hands of someone with moderate knowledge, this point & shoot in automated modes, will give pictures comparable to a DSLR. So if we want to give people advice, let them see what the experts say: The New York Times review: "This is a review of the best pocket camera ever made.... No photos this good have ever come from a camera this small.... This is an ideal second camera for professionals. And it’s a great primary camera for any amateur who wants to take professional-looking photos without having to carry a camera bag." Disney photo expert and blogger Tom Bricker: "The Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 is the best point & shoot camera ever... That this camera can do everything that it does in such a small size almost defies the laws of science. It’s one amazing camera in one really, really small package... It was as if the Sony RX100 was doing its best DSLR impression. It was a pretty good impression. The discerning eye could certainly tell a difference, but to have that look to a photo taken by a point and shoot camera? Wow..." And I agree with Tom Bricker's conclusion: "This is a truly revolutionary camera. That I’m comparing its performance to my DSLRs in areas of this review should speak volumes, given that it’s a pocket-sized, point and shoot camera. To be sure, quality is not DSLR quality in most regards, but it can be very close. Close enough that I’m betting the Sony RX100 would be a suitable replacement for a DSLR for a lot of you reading this. A point and shoot that is a suitable replacement for a DSLR for many people and is pocket sized?! I honestly never thought I would see the day. " photo expert Steve Huff: "The Sony RX100 Digital Camera Review – The best pocket digital compact of the year…actually…EVER!... The good news is that the sensor in this camera ROCKS and ROCKS hard and I have never seen a small camera such as this deliver this quality in not only photo but video as well.... This Sony RX100 has all of the features, and even more, than a huge DSLR. The image quality makes no apologies to it’s bigger DSLR brothers. Sure, you can go buy a DSLR and pro lens and get sharper images and make huge *** prints but you can also do this with the RX100." Gizmodo: "Near-DSLR power packed into a body the size of a compact point-and-shoot camera? What's the catch?" "There is a lot to like about the camera, but without question, the camera's focusing abilities are its best feature. In low light, bright light, near, far, or anywhere in between, images look great. The ability to pick up macro-level detail isn't easy for a camera this size (the Canon G1X proves that), yet the RX100's abilities are very good in this regard. The camera's powerful depth-of-field strength, as it focuses on something in the mid-ground, while blurring the foreground and background, gives images the stunning look that's long been a DSLR exclusive." "This is a camera that 90% of the population can pull out of a pocket on a whim to fire off a few beautiful shots without much trouble." "Or, let's say you're a serious photographer who doesn't want the burden of always carrying around a DSLR. The RX100 is right for you as well. No, you absolutely won't get all the same shots you can pull off with your bigger camera. But you will get some of them (especially in good light). " |
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#22 | |
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Survivor
Call me crazy but I prefer the single bath Nothing beats the Magic of a Disney Resort! Will DIS from the Potty Alice, how's it hanging? Join Date: Jul 2004
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I could put together a bunch of quotes also, but suffice it to say, you're talking about one camera and it may or may not do a fantastic job for amateurs. (Which is what this thread is about.) People can certainly buy one themselves and find out.
Good luck to all with their camera purchases. (Done now.) A recap of the OP: Quote:
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#23 |
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WEDway Peoplemover Rider
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boca Raton, FL
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I think both of you are sort of talking past eachother - there are two issues at hand, and in some ways, I think both of you are 'right', but on different planes.
What Pea is referring to, and I agree, is that the camera technology cannot achieve things like composition, or interesting subjects, or understanding of depth of field control and why, or being cognizant of horizontal lines, or having good timing to capture candid or spontensous moments. No matter how smart the auto modes, no matter how capable the sensor, these are the things that require a good photographer to get right. What Havoc is referring to I think is that there are gains in the technology that can now make up for a few areas that amateurs once had no ability to shoot or no access to...they may not know composition, or focus depth, or complimentary colors, or even keeping horizons level...but what they can do that they never could before is take a quick, thoughtless, handheld snapshot of a child blowing out candles on a cake in an unlit room, and actually get a discernable photo of a child, with clean details and low noise, and a well lit exposure. This is something that only a professional or highly skilled photographer was even capable of in the past, because the camera technology then simply couldn't produce an automatically exposed, full auto snapshot at ISO6400 that was in any way presentable. The skilled photographer knew tricks to getting around the limitations, and therefore knew how to get that shot, but the amateur was completely out of luck. Now, with large-sensor cameras that have intelligent auto modes, access to fairly clean ISO results up to 12800, and multi-stacking modes built in, even a snapshooter with no skill can get that shot exposed. Where Pea is right again is that the amateur's shot may have blown white balance, a pole growing out of the child's head, the entire photo tilted 30 degrees left, and the child's eyes part-closed. So is it a 'great photo'? Maybe not, unless luck was very much on that amateur's side. But is that photo exposed and captured in a way that simply wasn't possible 20 years ago unless you were a highly skilled photographer with the right tools? Yes. So, you're both correct in my opinion.
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#24 | |
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DIS Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,939
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Composition is the biggie that cannot ever be replaced by technology. But where obtaining proper exposure used to require great skill, knowledge and equipment by a professional, it is much more within the reach of an amateur with automated equipment now. |
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#25 | |
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Knows a little about a lot of things, a lot about nothing.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: in the middle of Dallas/Fort Worth
Posts: 3,938
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Early on I learned in my very first college photography class that 90% of getting the shot is on the photographer. It was reitterated anytime a student used the excuse that they had cheap gear. The gear is just a tool. Good paint brushes won't make you paint like Monet. Having a slab of marble and a chisel won't make you sculpt like Michelangelo. And no camera, no matter how advanced, will make you take professional quality images. But a skilled photographer can take any camera and produce professional quality images. And Michelangelo could probably have created a masterpiece with a Play Doh fun factory.
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#26 | |
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Survivor
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Justin, I'm not sure you captured what I was trying to say this time around. I was talking about technology.
The vast majority of point and shoot users are going to keep their cameras on Auto. There are some who won't, but those are usually either experienced photographers or those who are attempting to learn more. Aside from people hanging out here, who are generally either part of the latter group or wish to be, most people looking for a point and shoot will be keeping it on Auto. At least this is what I see from reading and responding to these types of threads, both here and on other parts of the board, and IRL with friends and coworkers, etc. The OP wishes to get photos that are typically difficult to get with any camera and without at least some knowledge of exposure. Havoc seems to be saying that this one camera (or other newer cameras of the current generation) can circumvent all the traditional wisdom and get great photos regardless. Which is what I'm disagreeing with. Further, he or she is espousing this idea to people who are looking to buy a new point and shoot camera. Which to me is because people may be disappointed when they find out those types of shots will still be challenging on Auto. Now, if people want to venture off of Auto and see what they can do with this camera, perhaps they will have good results. As you know, I use 4:3 cameras and as evidenced by the graphs posted earlier in this thread, because these have a larger sensor in the camera in question, shouldn't I be able to get great pics in low light and with movement? Guess what? I still generally cannot, unless I work at it. (Which would include using certain lenses, or experimenting with settings, etc.) On its own, it's still difficult. And we've seen that over and over again with new dSLR users, too. I know you are a Sony shooter and undoubtedly know more about this camera than I do. (I'm talking general principles, though.) If it really is the Holy Grail of cameras and anyone - even users with no experience - can get fantastic photos under challenging conditions, then I'll be the first to acknowledge there are obviously more exceptions to traditional wisdom than I am aware of. I would still be really interested in seeing havoc's photos from this camera that are the types of photos mentioned in the OP: Quote:
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#27 | |
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Survivor
Call me crazy but I prefer the single bath Nothing beats the Magic of a Disney Resort! Will DIS from the Potty Alice, how's it hanging? Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
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#28 | |
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Survivor
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Your Camera Doesn't Matter
Quote:
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#29 | |
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Survivor
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I got a chance to look around a bit at the Sony RX100. It certainly does appear to be a nice, capable - probably more capable than most - point and shoot camera. (As it should be for $650!)
I did see reports of blur with low light photos. (One user even calling his "unusable" No doubt, in large part user error.) But this review sort of summed up what I've been trying to say. Take from it what you will. Quote:
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#30 | ||
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DIS Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,939
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Quote:
I repeatedly stated that composition is purely in the realm of the art, skill, knowledge and experience of the photographer. I further repeatedly stated that a high quality DSLR on manual in the hands of an expert will always out-perform an amateur with a point and shoot. But I also said.... That this camera (and others that are surely to come in the future), on mostly automated settings, allow an amateur, or someone with moderate photography knowledge, to obtain exposure quality, that only an expert would have been able to obtain 10-20 years ago. On fully automated settings, you can get a very good exposure, without even knowing the definition of the word aperture. Does that mean it will be an amazing photograph? No. Is more knowledge still helpful? Yes, knowledge never hurts. But in a direct competition with myself --- With a fair (but not great) working knowledge of ISO, aperture, shutter speed, focal length, dynamic range --- I am getting similar or better results with the point & shoot on automatic, than I was able to get with my dSLR. Quote:
The sushi photograph, while looking like bright day light, was taken indoors, no flash, in dim lighting. I'll try to post more examples tonight or tomorrow. I took a picture of 1 of my children by just the light of their nightlight, it practically looked like daytime. I'll tell you what --- Give me 3 pictures that you'd like me to take, that I can replicate around my own home -- And we'll see the results. If the results are poor, so be it. If the results shine, so be it. I'll even take each picture twice -- once using a dSLR camera to the best of my ability, and once using the point and shoot. So give me 3 examples you want to see, and I'll try both cameras side by side. I'll post with access to exif data as well. I won't apply any post processing, except what is done automatically in the camera. For the point & shoot, I'll only use the automated and pre-programmed modes. I won't shift to A/S/M-- I'll let the camera handle the exposure. Might take me until the weekend to get it done, but I think it will make an interesting test. |
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