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Old 07-22-2012, 07:45 AM   #31
bookwormde
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Originally Posted by Schmeck View Post
But can Disney ask if you are disabled? They cannot ask you to show proof, I know that. I thought they could only ask if an animal was a service animal and provided a certain accommodation to the person with the animal.
Actually the burden is on the individual with a disabilty to self declare before they are afforded rights under ADA.

A commercial verture also has the right to refuse if they have certainty that the person does not have a disability under ADA 2009, but if they are wrong and the person prevails in a hearing thier liability is significant, so most understand that they do not have the neccesary information to make that determination, this refusal is much more common in the employment enviroment where there is longer tern knowlege of the individual.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Schmeck View Post
Best check your definitions - limiting a rental of scooters by age (to a minor) is not descrimination. Limiting a rental based on a disability, or lack there of, is discrimination. If one does not have to show proof for something, nor is given a service exceeding the general public, then allowing a discriminating set of standards is illegal.

You also stated that Disney needs to set a policy, not the ADA. Disney cannot set that policy, as I stated.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for ADA regulations regarding disability requirements to be changed. Too many people worked for too long to get the freedom and dignity of the 'don't ask, don't tell' parts of the ADA. Would you like to be challenged for every little accommodation made in public? Would you like to describe over and over again the disability that prevents you from equal access? I certainly do not want to have to keep showing the gaping chunk missing out of my leg every time I need an accommodation. I like being able to use curb cuts, instead of stepping down off the curb - should those only be used by wheelchair users and ECVs?
You may want to check your facts Sir.the ADA rules are changed and amended very often..its not a document in cement........just last month they added a silly thing that tiny horses can be service animals..........they are getting a lot of flack form the disabled over that, not to mention health depts., etc......


Your statement was wrong. Disney can set any policy their want as long as it follows ADA guidelines.....Frankly, Disney or any parks or company does not have to rent anything. The court has told Disney to confirm their evidence that segways are unsafe and explore ways to provide the folks that need a standing vehicle a way to use one....E.I........... ESV.

It's not a little thing It a MAJOR SAFETY issue! There is no need for segways.......as there are ESV available.


I never said anyone needs to tell anyone about their disability.......it has nothing to do with my comments. But you got your mileage have of it. trying to scare people into thinking the safety is not the issue.


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Old 07-22-2012, 01:50 PM   #33
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You may want to check your facts Sir.the ADA rules are changed and amended very often..its not a document in cement........just last month they added a silly thing that tiny horses can be service animals.
I can't find this anywhere. I can find that the Justice Department ordered the use of miniature horses be considered, back in April 2011; I can find that the state of Illinois has approved miniature horses as guide animals (recently, I think). But I can't find a change to the ADA effective June 2012. What's your source, if you don't mind?
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
I can't find this anywhere. I can find that the Justice Department ordered the use of miniature horses be considered, back in April 2011; I can find that the state of Illinois has approved miniature horses as guide animals (recently, I think). But I can't find a change to the ADA effective June 2012. What's your source, if you don't mind?
It was in the 2010 changes, which took effect in 2012 - I believe in March, along with the design changes.

Here is the source - scroll down all the way to the end:
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:33 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
It's not a little thing It a MAJOR SAFETY issue! There is no need for segways.......as there are ESV available.



AKK
It has yet to be determined if standing mobility devices if properly regulated represent a signifcant safety issue.

There are funtinal differences between standing mobility devices and ESV so each may provide a better meaure of "as equivelent an experiance" for peoplle with differnt needs related to thier disability, and Disney can not mandate which to use if both can be used safely.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
You may want to check your facts Sir.the ADA rules are changed and amended very often..its not a document in cement........just last month they added a silly thing that tiny horses can be service animals..........they are getting a lot of flack form the disabled over that, not to mention health depts., etc......


Your statement was wrong. Disney can set any policy their want as long as it follows ADA guidelines.....Frankly, Disney or any parks or company does not have to rent anything. The court has told Disney to confirm their evidence that segways are unsafe and explore ways to provide the folks that need a standing vehicle a way to use one....E.I........... ESV.

It's not a little thing It a MAJOR SAFETY issue! There is no need for segways.......as there are ESV available.


I never said anyone needs to tell anyone about their disability.......it has nothing to do with my comments. But you got your mileage have of it. trying to scare people into thinking the safety is not the issue.


AKK
You said Disney needs to change their policy - if it is against ADA, then Disney cannot set a policy to allow only certain people to use a certain device for accessibility.

Yes, ADA changes, amends, to make things more of equal access, not the other way around. Adding descriptions to clarify (as in, the mini horses) makes it more equal access, and less of a hassle for the person using the service animal, etc.

You wanted Segways only used by certain people, those who 'deserve' to use them. I understand the safety issue. How are you determining who 'deserves' to use the Segway? A safety test? Who will be in charge of the safety test, what are the parameters, what standards will have to be met? Will there have to be proof of disability? (If so, then you have another set of standards that have to be met, BTW). How can Disney set these standards without coming into conflict with the core idea of ADA, which is nonintrusive equal access?

Telling about a disability - that's at the core of your argument too. You are trying to limit use of a mobility device. You want people to prove a disability, which would require either someone carry a "hangtag" of some sort all the time (like a label on a person, hey look, I'm disabled!) or having to explain over and over again what the disability is.

Also, I'm not a Sir, LOL!
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bookwormde View Post
Actually the burden is on the individual with a disabilty to self declare before they are afforded rights under ADA.

A commercial verture also has the right to refuse if they have certainty that the person does not have a disability under ADA 2009, but if they are wrong and the person prevails in a hearing thier liability is significant, so most understand that they do not have the neccesary information to make that determination, this refusal is much more common in the employment enviroment where there is longer tern knowlege of the individual.
One would only have to declare if needs were not being met. The ADA is all about getting those needs met so one would not have to declare a thing.

Also, a commercial venture would only have to refuse if a person declared his/her needs were not being met.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:00 AM   #38
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AKK[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmeck View Post
One would only have to declare if needs were not being met. The ADA is all about getting those needs met so one would not have to declare a thing.

Also, a commercial venture would only have to refuse if a person declared his/her needs were not being met.
Yes if there are in place structures that allow equal access (experiance) that are not limited to individuals with disabiity then there is no need to declare.

So a person declares as a component of a request for equal access
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:56 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bookwormde View Post
It has yet to be determined if standing mobility devices if properly regulated represent a signifcant safety issue.

There are funtinal differences between standing mobility devices and ESV so each may provide a better meaure of "as equivelent an experiance" for peoplle with differnt needs related to thier disability, and Disney can not mandate which to use if both can be used safely.



The segways have been proven in crowed ares to be a safety issue with many accident and lawsuits now in effect......they have be outlawed in some areas of big cities and at least 2 shopping malls due to accidents and suits.

They can indeed if they prove to the court the safety issue!
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
I can't find this anywhere. I can find that the Justice Department ordered the use of miniature horses be considered, back in April 2011; I can find that the state of Illinois has approved miniature horses as guide animals (recently, I think). But I can't find a change to the ADA effective June 2012. What's your source, if you don't mind?
My pardon,I meant to say.........last month it was discussed in a thread.....

*BAD ME*

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Old 07-23-2012, 10:05 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmeck View Post
You said Disney needs to change their policy - if it is against ADA, then Disney cannot set a policy to allow only certain people to use a certain device for accessibility.

Yes, ADA changes, amends, to make things more of equal access, not the other way around. Adding descriptions to clarify (as in, the mini horses) makes it more equal access, and less of a hassle for the person using the service animal, etc.

You wanted Segways only used by certain people, those who 'deserve' to use them. I understand the safety issue. How are you determining who 'deserves' to use the Segway? A safety test? Who will be in charge of the safety test, what are the parameters, what standards will have to be met? Will there have to be proof of disability? (If so, then you have another set of standards that have to be met, BTW). How can Disney set these standards without coming into conflict with the core idea of ADA, which is nonintrusive equal access?

Telling about a disability - that's at the core of your argument too. You are trying to limit use of a mobility device. You want people to prove a disability, which would require either someone carry a "hangtag" of some sort all the time (like a label on a person, hey look, I'm disabled!) or having to explain over and over again what the disability is.

Also, I'm not a Sir, LOL!
My pardon.I did not know your gender, no insult intended

The proof is in the number of accidents and lawsuits mounting up when these segways are used in crowded areas and the areas that are preventing there use.............like crowded malls (there was cable show about it a few months ago)........end of that story!

again.............this is NOT about telling anyone, anything, its about safety in a crowded park.........especially kids safety and the use on a alternate mobile devise that is much safer.

I would also point out that the person riding the segway is just as easily going to be severely injured.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:25 PM   #42
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They have other stand up mobility scooters that are driven just like a normal scooter no balancing required. If they force Disney to accept Segways they could always offer those for rent and could set the speed control to be similar to other scooters
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:20 PM   #43
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They have other stand up mobility scooters that are driven just like a normal scooter no balancing required. If they force Disney to accept Segways they could always offer those for rent and could set the speed control to be similar to other scooters
I totally agree.............ES(=standing)V..........AKK
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:36 PM   #44
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Excuse my ignorance on this but can some site an ADA requirement for a non ADA approved device? It is my understanding that the company that makes Segways never intended it to be a device to be used by disabled people and have never had it approved for that type of use by any organization world wide.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:33 PM   #45
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EastYorkDisneyFan - http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleIII...reg3_2010.html
When the ADA was revised in 2010 they included a new section under mobility devices:

Other power-driven mobility device means any mobility device powered by batteries, fuel, or other engines--whether or not designed primarily for use by individuals with mobility disabilities--that is used by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion, including golf cars, electronic personal assistance mobility devices (EPAMDs), such as the Segway® PT, or any mobility device designed to operate in areas without defined pedestrian routes, but that is not a wheelchair within the meaning of this section. This definition does not apply to Federal wilderness areas; wheelchairs in such areas are defined in section 508(c)(2) of the ADA, 42 U.S.C. 12207(c)(2).

So yes, the Segway (legal name EPAMD) is mentioned in and covered by the ADA.

In response to Tonka's Skipper, the cities that I am aware that have banned Segways include San Francisco, Boston and Laguna. All of those cities cite that their exclusion of use of Segways does not pertain to someone with a qualified disability. http://alttransport.com/2011/06/segw...ton-sidewalks/

Universal Studios, Six Flags, the San Diego Zoo all permit Segways. Please cite any mall that currently bans Segways. They are permitted in Walmarts, Targets and Costcos as well.

>>>>>>
Mobility Assistive Device Policy http://www.sandiegozoo.org/zoo/plan_...h_disabilities

The Zoological Society of San Diego is dedicated to providing all of its guests with equal enjoyment of the wonderful experience offered by its Parks – The World Famous San Diego Zoo and The San Diego Zoo’s Safari Park.

The safety of our visitors is extremely important to us. The Parks are primarily pedestrian environments. By “pedestrian,” we mean any individual who moves within walking areas with or without the use of walking-assistive devices such as crutches, leg braces, wheelchairs, etc. Park attendance is often at high capacity resulting in busy pedestrian pathways. Our goal is to maintain a safe pedestrian traffic flow for all visitors while allowing for use of mobility assistive devices that do not fundamentally alter the nature of the experience the Parks provide.

In order to maintain a safe pedestrian environment and the desired pace and flow of visitor traffic, the Parks do not allow guests to bring or use most wheeled vehicles within the grounds. Bicycles, tricycles, scooters, skateboards, roller skates and similar modes of transportation are not allowed within the grounds. The Parks allow strollers as well as the following mobility assistive devices for use by guests with disabilities: wheelchairs, electric scooters, and Segways®. All Segways entering the Parks must be operated in “Turtle” mode so as not to disrupt the desired pace of the visitor traffic at the Parks and disturb other guests.
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