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Old 04-12-2012, 01:53 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by LuvsDragonflies View Post
If Zimmerman was trailing the kid for 15 minutes, how did his truck happen to be handy for him to walk back to? Was he continually getting in and out of his truck? Parking it and then tailing the kid?

I'm just wondering because people keep saying he was going back to his truck, where was it exactly? Right there or a 15 minute walk away?
I was under the impression that ~15 minutes included the time Zimmerman was in his truck + the time he was on foot and that he was only on foot for a short time.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:54 PM   #122
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Justice is served only when the truth is served.

If the truth is that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, started the fight and then shot him when Trayvon gained the upper hand, then justice is Zimmerman serving time for manslaughter at a minimum.

However, if Trayvon confronted Zimmerman, started the fight, had the upper hand on Zimmerman, then an acquittal is justice!

Far too many people feel that justice will be served only when Zimmerman is convicted of murder.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:56 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
I claim nothing of the sort. I'm fully aware that Zimmerman may very well be guilty as ----. But, in order to be totally fair here, we have to consider his side of things, not just Martin's side which the media was so quick to do. I'll be the first to admit when I read the story my thought was, "Oh man, he just gunned down an innocent kid". The more I hear, the more I realize that's just one possibility. And the other possibilities include up to & including pretty much the opposite. If I come off as being on on Zimmerman's side, it's primarily because (A) he's the accused, and (B) the majority seem to be on Martin's side.
My opinion on that will likely never change. I firmly believe he did indeed gun down an innocent kid. Trayvon was not a danger to Zimmerman when he walked in that gated community after his trip to a convenience store. From all the evidence so far, he was an unarmed teen that was minding his own business. So from that aspect, I will always believe Zimmerman gunned downed an innocent kid.

What I'm not sure of yet is if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman once he returned to his car. First, I would want to know why Z was returning to his car? Had he given up tracking Martin or was his plan to hop in his car and prowl the subdivision looking for him? I'm guessing he will never admit the latter. Second, was his back turned when (if) Trayvon jumped him? Or were they face to face and having words before a fight broke out?
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:09 PM   #124
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Are those the non-existent injuries that were treated and documented by the EMT's on the scene, and then seen in the enhanced ABC video?
The ones invisible to many people on the video. I've seen the like, single frame of "enhanced" video with the dark line/shadow/whatever that isn't visible in all the other video of the back of his head.

By the way, those grievous theoretical injuries, including the 'scar' or 'cut' that in the 'enhanced video' is inches and inches long seems to have healed up really fast, if you judge by his appearance at his arraignment, which didn't seem to include any such.

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Of course, there are 3 witnesses who place Trayvon on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting. The 13 year old walking his dog, "John" and another 911 call from a woman. And if I recall correctly, both the 13 year old and "John" tag Zimmerman as the one screaming for help. That would most certainly place Zimmerman in the defensive position.

However, I think the start of the altercation has bearing. If Trayvon started it, its a clear self defense case. If Zimmerman started it, I do not think he can claim self defense just because Trayvon gained the upper hand. And even in that case, I just don't see Murder 2 as valid. Manslaughter, yes, but not murder 2.
There are witnesses who place it the other way. I'm waiting for the forensics, though goodness knows what there is of it.

What happened PRIOR to any altercation is a part of the story. Zimmerman's actions before they interacted face-to-face are relevant.

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I think it's pretty easy to prove Zimmerman as a jerk & probably an idiot. But, as much as most of us would LOVE to punch every jerk & idiot we encounter, that's assault. And if (if) a jerk were to approach me, tick me off, and I took a swing at him, and I took many additional swings to the point he was on the ground fearing for his life, he'd be well within his rights to pull a gun & shoot me.
Well, maybe. He'd have to have a reasonable belief that his life itself were in imminent danger and be in a state that doesn't require he retreat if possible (which he was). However, if that's not what happened...

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BTW, was the kid really doing no wrong? This happened at night & Zimmerman followed the kid for ~15 minutes in the rain. Was he simply walking home, or scoping out unlocked cars for purses? 15 minutes is enough to walk a mile. Who walks a mile (in both directions) in the rain just for a tea & Skittles? Did he go straight to the store & back, or was he wandering through the neighborhood? Lots of questions that have to be answered IMO.

I'd like to know exactly how far home was from the convenience store & where the confrontation took place in relation to both the store & home.
Well, lots of people go for walks. I do, all the time. You have no idea how fast Martin was walking - 15 minutes is a relatively fast mile, a general walking mile is 20. Maybe he was ambling; he was also talking to his gf on the phone.

Where do you get that he might have been ..."scoping out unlocked cars for purses" ?! He's a criminal suddenly?

He went out for tea and Skittles. He purchased tea and Skittles. He was walking back home, was in fact almost there, and was talking to his gf on the phone with the tea and Skittles in his possession. How does that portend nefarious criminal behaviour, exactly? How does that not, on the face of those facts, which are not in dispute, end up with those facts and those alone, without somehow that he might have been engaging in some criminal activity??

Just btw because it seems unbelievable to some - move to a city. Yes, I have walked a mille for something; this is a frequent occurance. My friend wanted Chinese food the other night so we walked over to one, a mile and a half in each direction; one of the markets I go to is a mile from me, as are 50,000 other things. In h.s. we'd often walk a mile or more to go get iced coffees or go look at CDs or etc. Live in a city, you walk all the time, all over the place, it's nothing remarkable. Remember Supersize Me? He has to start taking cabs everyplace he goes because he nearly exceeds the average American's step count just going to the train to get to work in the morning.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:10 PM   #125
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I was under the impression that ~15 minutes included the time Zimmerman was in his truck + the time he was on foot and that he was only on foot for a short time.
Zimmerman was only on the call for about 4 minutes. And his statement about half way in that call was that Trayvon had started to run. Where he was at the time, and the location of the apartment he was heading to, he would have been at the apartment before Zimmerman hung up with the 911 operator about 2 minutes after that statement. Looking at the map and distances involved, I could have run that in less than a minute, and I'm old, fat and out of shape.

And yet, 2 and half minutes after the call ended, Trayvon is shot dead, still a hundred feet from the apartment.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:16 PM   #126
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Well, maybe. He'd have to have a reasonable belief that his life itself were in imminent danger and be in a state that doesn't require he retreat if possible (which he was). However, if that's not what happened...
It's not? We know that?

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Where do you get that he might have been ..."scoping out unlocked cars for purses" ?! He's a criminal suddenly?
I don't. I'm simply pointing out the fact that we don't KNOW what he was "up to". It may have been perfectly innocent, and it may not have.

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Just btw because it seems unbelievable to some - move to a city. Yes, I have walked a mille for something; this is a frequent occurance.
BTDT, didn't do it in the rain though
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by moburg View Post
Zimmerman was only on the call for about 4 minutes. And his statement about half way in that call was that Trayvon had started to run. Where he was at the time, and the location of the apartment he was heading to, he would have been at the apartment before Zimmerman hung up with the 911 operator about 2 minutes after that statement. Looking at the map and distances involved, I could have run that in less than a minute, and I'm old, fat and out of shape.

And yet, 2 and half minutes after the call ended, Trayvon is shot dead, still a hundred feet from the apartment.
I thought Zimmerman called the police at 7pm and talked for just around 4 minutes. After he hung up, isn't there 8 minutes that are unaccounted for because Martin didn't start talking to his GF until 7:12pm?
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:24 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
It's not? We know that?
Reading is your friend.

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I don't. I'm simply pointing out the fact that we don't KNOW what he was "up to". It may have been perfectly innocent, and it may not have.
What, precisely, would be the difference? Say he was "scoping out unlocked cars for purses to steal" (which I am fairly sickened to even type as it's so ridiculous and comes from such a dark place, honestly).

How does that change anything? It means nothing. It gives Zimmerman no extra excuse. It changes nothing about the encounter.

Quote:
BTDT, didn't do it in the rain though
Ok, I do and did. I like the rain. Also, I have no idea when it started raining, how hard it was raining, etc. or if he liked the rain.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:27 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvsDragonflies View Post
If Zimmerman was trailing the kid for 15 minutes, how did his truck happen to be handy for him to walk back to? Was he continually getting in and out of his truck? Parking it and then tailing the kid?

I'm just wondering because people keep saying he was going back to his truck, where was it exactly? Right there or a 15 minute walk away?
According to the police, it was parked by the mailboxes near the clubhouse.

It should be noted that the time between his call to the police and the altercation was only about a minute, as I recall.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:30 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
Giving Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, I'll have to be fair & take Martin's side on this one & say perhaps he was trying to elude Zimmerman. Still wondering why he didn't call his dad at any point.
Still, the spot where Zimmerman reported that Martin was running south was very close to the spot where he was shot. given that he was running away towards the apartment and Zimmerman remained on the phone for a few more minutes seemingly not in pursuit, how did he end up right back where he was, rather than arrive at the apartment?

You don't evade someone by going right back to the last place that you saw him.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:33 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by LisaR View Post
I thought Zimmerman called the police at 7pm and talked for just around 4 minutes. After he hung up, isn't there 8 minutes that are unaccounted for because Martin didn't start talking to his GF until 7:12pm?
No, Zimmerman's 911 call started around 7:10, finished around 7:14, Trayvon was shot around 7:17.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:35 PM   #132
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If only he had extended that right to Tayvon Martin. He had called 911 and they were sending someone. And yes, he will be afforded the rights he is due as a citizen of this country. Strange, since he appointed himself as judge, jury and executioner.
This is what I keep coming back to. He called 911. They were sending the police to handle the situation. If he had stayed in his vehicle, I can't help but think that Trayvon would still be alive.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:39 PM   #133
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My opinion on that will likely never change. I firmly believe he did indeed gun down an innocent kid. Trayvon was not a danger to Zimmerman when he walked in that gated community after his trip to a convenience store. From all the evidence so far, he was an unarmed teen that was minding his own business. So from that aspect, I will always believe Zimmerman gunned downed an innocent kid.
The issue is not whether he was a danger when he walked into the community. The issue is whether he was reasonably seen as a danger at the moment Zimmerman shot him.
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What I'm not sure of yet is if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman once he returned to his car. First, I would want to know why Z was returning to his car? Had he given up tracking Martin or was his plan to hop in his car and prowl the subdivision looking for him? I'm guessing he will never admit the latter.
I think that it's reasonable to assume that if he was returning to his truck, then he was doing so because he ended his pursuit. After all, the vehicle would not help him spot Martin in the area that Martin was last seen.
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Second, was his back turned when (if) Trayvon jumped him? Or were they face to face and having words before a fight broke out?
We know the answer to this question. They were facing one another. Martin asked him 'Why are you following me?'. Zimmerman replied 'What are you doing here?'. Then the connection was lost and 9/11 calls started coming in within one minute.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:44 PM   #134
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Reading is your friend.
I was taught at an early age to believe half of what you read & none of what you hear. This case is proof of that being a pretty good saying



Quote:
Originally Posted by cornflake View Post
What, precisely, would be the difference? Say he was "scoping out unlocked cars for purses to steal" (which I am fairly sickened to even type as it's so ridiculous and comes from such a dark place, honestly).

How does that change anything? It means nothing. It gives Zimmerman no extra excuse. It changes nothing about the encounter.
We're going way out on a limb as nobody has speculated anything more than "what if". But, if in fact that "what if" were to exist, it would certainly be justification for Zimmerman's suspicion. As for where such a what if comes from, it comes from no dark place & find it rather insulting you'd assume as much. It's just a "what if".

We've all made a LOT of assumptions about Zimmerman's guilt & Martin's innocence. It would be irresponsible not to explore "what if" the truth were 180 degrees opposite.


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Ok, I do and did. I like the rain. Also, I have no idea when it started raining, how hard it was raining, etc. or if he liked the rain.
Fair enough.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:49 PM   #135
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I was taught at an early age to believe half of what you read & none of what you hear. This case is proof of that being a pretty good saying


We're going way out on a limb as nobody has speculated anything more than "what if". But, if in fact that "what if" were to exist, it would certainly be justification for Zimmerman's suspicion. As for where such a what if comes from, it comes from no dark place & find it rather insulting you'd assume as much. It's just a "what if".

We've all made a LOT of assumptions about Zimmerman's guilt & Martin's innocence. It would be irresponsible not to explore "what if" the truth were 180 degrees opposite.




Fair enough.
If it were justification for his suspicion - again, so what? What does that have to do with what happened, exactly?

It's not just a what if, from my perspective but whatever.
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