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Old 11-10-2011, 07:53 PM   #3346
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Originally Posted by KSDisneyDad View Post
Thousands of people? This thread has approximately 500 separate posters. The top 25 constitute over 71% of the posts. And some of the Top 25 are posting opposite opinions.

Someone posted on the DIS a few months back that the DIS only constitutes less than 3% of the total Disney visitors.

A few complaints from a couple of hundred posters is not evidence of decline. It's statistically insignificant.

And to quote an Op ed piece as evidence of decline is okay to post on this thread, but it's not okay to quote audited financial results?I normally think most of your posts are reasonable and thoughtful, but this one seems a bit extreme. JMHO and sorry if I offended.
*
KSDISNEYDAD-

Where did I say it's not okay to quote audited financial results? The financial results is something that is public knowledge... The data I was referring to is the data presented by another poster in regards to Resort vacancy rates....

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Old 11-10-2011, 08:02 PM   #3347
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Here's the link I was referring to in the Baltimore Sun Paper.

It's titled:

Disney's a Class Act, So What Went Wrong?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/travel/s...,4537901.story
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:49 PM   #3348
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Originally Posted by KSDisneyDad View Post
Thousands of people? This thread has approximately 500 separate posters. The top 25 constitute over 71% of the posts. And some of the Top 25 are posting opposite opinions.

Someone posted on the DIS a few months back that the DIS only constitutes less than 3% of the total Disney visitors.

A few complaints from a couple of hundred posters is not evidence of decline. It's statistically insignificant.

And to quote an Op ed piece as evidence of decline is okay to post on this thread, but it's not okay to quote audited financial results?

I normally think most of your posts are reasonable and thoughtful, but this one seems a bit extreme. JMHO and sorry if I offended.
Actually this thread is kind of a summary of different threads we had and continue to have.
Problems we discuss here being discussed on this board, resort board, dining board. It is not only top 25, there are more and yes even top 25 do not agree on details but most of us and I mean all posters of this thread agree there are some problems, they just mean different things to each of us.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:55 PM   #3349
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11/10/11 6:05pm CST LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Disney said Thursday that its fourth-quarter net income rose 30 percent, thanks to higher spending by theme park visitors and growth at pay TV operations ESPN and Disney Channel.

The conglomerate's theme parks saw revenue grow 11 percent to $3.13 billion. Higher ticket prices and hotel rates in addition to higher food and merchandise sales contributed to the growth. Attendance at its U.S. theme parks rose 1 percent, even though the company has been scaling back discounts that it put in during the recession in 2008 and 2009.

Analysts had been looking for any sign that the weak economy would hurt consumer spending, "but there was no sign of that in the parks," said Evercore analyst Alan Gould. "The stock price should work a little higher from here."

The company's net income for its full-year fiscal 2011 grew 21 percent to a record $4.8 billion, or $2.52 per share. Annual revenue also rose 7 percent to a record $40.89 billion."


I'd say prepare for more "going down hill" as WDW continues this maximize-profits strategy and an increasing number of people stand in line to spend more for less.

Last edited by Laketravis; 11-11-2011 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:18 PM   #3350
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Originally Posted by Laketravis View Post
11/10/11 6:05pm CST LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Disney said Thursday that its fourth-quarter net income rose 30 percent, thanks to higher spending by theme park visitors and growth at pay TV operations ESPN and Disney Channel.

The conglomerate's theme parks saw revenue grow 11 percent to $3.13 billion. Higher ticket prices and hotel rates in addition to higher food and merchandise sales contributed to the growth. Attendance at its U.S. theme parks rose 1 percent, even though the company has been scaling back discounts that it put in during the recession in 2008 and 2009.

Analysts had been looking for any sign that the weak economy would hurt consumer spending, "but there was no sign of that in the parks," said Evercore analyst Alan Gould. "The stock price should work a little higher from here."

The company's net income for its full-year fiscal 2011 grew 21 percent to a record $4.8 billion, or $2.52 per share. Annual revenue also rose 7 percent to a record $40.89 billion."


I'd say prepare for more "going down hill" as WDW continues this maximize-profits strategy and an increasing number of people stand in line to spend more for less.
Ah yes there is that twist again.They say attendance grew by 1% at US parks.They love to combine disney world and disneyland.I'd like to know the disneyworld numbers.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:21 PM   #3351
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Originally Posted by brunette8706 View Post
[/B]

*
MIckeyMinnieMom-

With all due respect your analyse above you state that your analytical opinion based upon the "DATA" and analytical experience. It just doesn't make sense. Disney doesn't really give us concrete solid numbers/data. There are so many ways to slice and dice data and many have dependencies that I feel is way too complex to even comprehend it, let alone input it here on this forum. What I'm saying and what the premise of this thread is about, is PERSONAL experience. Yes, in my opinion things have declined a bit at Disney. Now mind you, not everything, "SOME" things. Like I said overall the Disney vacation is a very magical experience. But there are some things like I mention above that have been on the decline. I'm not making this up. We've read about it here on the DIS board. I will reiterate once again, what they are:

Food
Restaurants
Monorail issues
Bus issues
Lack of decorations
Ticket pricing

These are just a few. There have been more and more complaints on this very board about most of the above issues. I think with the economy the way it is, Disney is cutting back, at the same time they are raising their prices across the board. Further this is not a Disney BASH THREAD, it's merely an observation from thousands of people that have noticed this type of thing. The latest negative I read about was last week in the Baltimore Sun TRAVEL SECTION. Someone wrote to the paper complaining about the way the CM and the DVC treated a customer who paid THOUSANDS OF $$$$$$ for their Timeshare. I will try to find a link.

Brunette
Brunette,

See my highlights above to try to clarify where I was coming from in my prior post.

With respect to the thousands of complaints comments. As you can see in the red bolded, you said that this was not a bash thread, but it's an observation from "thousands" of people. I incorrectly assumed that the word "it's" was referring specifically to this thread. I didn't know that you were referring to complainers in general. I am sure you're right that there are thousands who have complained, but there are also millions who love Disney as evidenced by their earnings release today.

I don't want to get into a debate about this. I simply apologize for taking this out of context, but wanted to show you how I incorrectly concluded that you were only referring to this thread.

Second, with respect to not allowing numbers. See my blue bolded section above. I interpreted "let alone input it on this forum" to mean that you felt that MickeyMinnieMom should not have used the data as reported in the 10-K's and 10-Q's as posted on the Disney Investor Relations website. These numbers were originally posted from me and I got them from the Annual Reports on the Disney Investor Relations website here:

http://corporate.disney.go.com/inves...l_reports.html

These are not made up numbers. They were filed with the SEC and were vetted by their auditors.

Overall, I probably overreacted, but I interpreted the tone of your post to mean that MickeyMinnieMom's thoughtful and diligent review of the numbers was inappropriate for this forum, but that it's okay to post an op ed piece in a local newspaper. If I wrote a letter to the editor of our local paper about how wonderful my Disney vacation was, do you think they'd print it? Using a single person's opinion as "evidence" of the downhill decline and my interpration that the data in the annual reports shouldn't be used seemed hypocritical to me and I wanted to call it out.

I still believe that this thread is simply just people's opinions. No amount of number slicing and dicing, anecdotal "evidence" or other facts/data will convince anyone to change their mind. It's all just your personal experience. Even the article you quoted was just one person's view. It's my opinion that it's the exception, not the norm based on my own personal experiences with Disney.

Back to the original topic. No, I don't think Disney has gone downhill. Instead, they have made lots of improvements over the years and continue to add new and exciting things. Does that mean I like all the changes? Of course not, but the positive far outweighs the negative in my opinion. Obviously, some on here disagree and that's okay.

Again, I didn't mean to attack, but was just hoping to point out how your post could have been interpreted different than perhaps how you intended it.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:29 PM   #3352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flicx View Post
Ah yes there is that twist again.They say attendance grew by 1% at US parks.They love to combine disney world and disneyland.I'd like to know the disneyworld numbers.
Does it really matter? Disney World is 4 major parks vs 2 at DL. If DW was down significantly, it'd pull the overall numbers down. Even if you assume that DL was up dramatically, DW would still be fairly close to the prior year and what does that really mean anyway? You can spin a single number anyway you want. I like to look at the overall numbers and not just one.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:35 PM   #3353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunette8706 View Post
[/B]

*
I will reiterate once again, what they are:

Food
Restaurants
Monorail issues
Bus issues
Lack of decorations
Ticket pricing

These are just a few. There have been more and more complaints on this very board about most of the above issues.

Brunette
Help me understand lack of decorations. I haven't been to Halloween or Christmas parties in over 5 years so don't know. All I know is that they have really upgraded the castle decorations at both DW and DL since our last trip during the holidays. The pictures look absolutely incredible of the castle. And this year they are adding Christmas elements to the MMY show on the castle. There are gigantic gingerbread houses at WDW, eleborate trees, the Osborne Family Spectacle of Lights, and incredible decor throughout the parks. I think complaining about the a lack of decorations at WDW is like a person complaining about not enough food on a buffet table. What you want may not be on the buffet, but there are still lots of other choices to more than fill you up.
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:10 PM   #3354
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Actually if you look at post 3320.I said I thought the most significant increases have occured since 05.
Sorry missed that. I agree for the most part, but it depends on the resort. Cont and GF incresed at faster rates from '05-'12, but BC had slower increases, and the polynesion was about the same. Overall, the '05-'12 rate is faster, but both periods do outpace inflation.


From 2005 to 2012 the average annual price increase for the resorts you list:

Inflation during this period = 2.5%
Contemporary: 4.0%
Polynesion: 4.4%
Beach Club: 2.1%
Grand Floridian: 4.5%

The 1994-2005 rate:

Inflation during this period = 2.6%
Contemporary: 2.1%
Polynesion: 4.0%
Beach Club: 3.2%
Grand Floridian: 3.0%


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Old 11-11-2011, 06:21 PM   #3355
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Sorry missed that. I agree for the most part, but it depends on the resort. Cont and GF incresed at faster rates from '05-'12, but BC had slower increases, and the polynesion was about the same. Overall, the '05-'12 rate is faster, but both periods do outpace inflation.


From 2005 to 2012 the average annual price increase for the resorts you list:

Inflation during this period = 2.5%
Contemporary: 4.0%
Polynesion: 4.4%
Beach Club: 2.1%
Grand Floridian: 4.5%

The 1994-2005 rate:

Inflation during this period = 2.6%
Contemporary: 2.1%
Polynesion: 4.0%
Beach Club: 3.2%
Grand Floridian: 3.0%


Dan
No bigge Dan,I miss things alot too! My theory is that the last 5 or more years has been the biggest decline at disney across the board.I don't like the way current management is going.Thats just the way I feel.
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:30 PM   #3356
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Originally Posted by KSDisneyDad View Post
Does it really matter? Disney World is 4 major parks vs 2 at DL. If DW was down significantly, it'd pull the overall numbers down. Even if you assume that DL was up dramatically, DW would still be fairly close to the prior year and what does that really mean anyway? You can spin a single number anyway you want. I like to look at the overall numbers and not just one.
Does it really matter?Why of course it does.This discussion is about WDW not DL.It isn't about the whole disney company,its about disney world.You really like to down play attendance don't you.If disney world dropped in attendance again this year that makes 2 years in a row with a decline in attendance.I think most companies are concerned when there is a decline in attendance in back to back years.I guess we will have to wait for the TEA numbers to come out since disney isn't forthcoming with numbers for the world.If you remember last year disney released a similar statement(domestic park attendance up) and after the TEA numbers came out we found out that 3 of the 4 parks at DW had a decline in attendance.
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:53 PM   #3357
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Originally Posted by DOOM1001 View Post
Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.
*
Yes, you're right. This is the purpose of this thread, to see some of the things that have declined. It's reasurring that some people like you, have THE INTELLIGENCE and PERCEPTION of understanding that whether or not a "personal opinion" can be relegated to data on a spreadsheet.

It is my EXPERIENCE and opinion that there are negatives in the direction that Disney chooses to take. It woiuld further appear, that the COO of Disney, is focused purely on numbers as some other people are, and thus missed the mark on trying to understand how people's opinions and feelings (which can not be measured with numbers, regardless of how "Professional" one claims to be) affect the personal experience that we have all grew to know as "special" to Disney. This is not withstanding that there are new projects going on also such as the Fantasyland expansion, AVATAR and cruise ships. I think Avatar opens in 2016.

DOOM1001, thank you for your perceptive response. Some of your concerns are ones we share. I forgot about the Soap Opera weekened and the ESPN weekend. It's a shame about the Winter of Lights, now that was spectacular! Anyway, I suspect that as long as there is "Iger type" CEO who is simply concerned with the bottom line and not what brought Disney to be the leader in vacation destinations in the first place.

Brunette
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:16 PM   #3358
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Originally Posted by KSDisneyDad View Post
Brunette,

See my highlights above to try to clarify where I was coming from in my prior post.

With respect to the thousands of complaints comments. As you can see in the red bolded, you said that this was not a bash thread, but it's an observation from "thousands" of people. I incorrectly assumed that the word "it's" was referring specifically to this thread. I didn't know that you were referring to complainers in general. I am sure you're right that there are thousands who have complained, but there are also millions who love Disney as evidenced by their earnings release today.

Of course people love Disney, millions upon millions, me included. Yes there are tons of complaints about "some things" Disney. You can even google the complaints and see. But yes, millions just love WDW! As I stated earlier there are things in my opinion and other people opinions that, there are some things that are in the decline. The ones I suspect that would notice these things are the ones that go often, in which case we do. Anyway, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree regarding the "decline of some things Disney.

I don't want to get into a debate about this. I simply apologize for taking this out of context, but wanted to show you how I incorrectly concluded that you were only referring to this thread.

Thank you for this. Apology accepted, no worries.

Second, with respect to not allowing numbers. See my blue bolded section above. I interpreted "let alone input it on this forum" to mean that you felt that MickeyMinnieMom should not have used the data as reported in the 10-K's and 10-Q's as posted on the Disney Investor Relations website. These numbers were originally posted from me and I got them from the Annual Reports on the Disney Investor Relations website here:

http://corporate.disney.go.com/inves...l_reports.html

These are not made up numbers. They were filed with the SEC and were vetted by their auditors.

I know they are "not made up". I never did have a problem with your numbers, I agree with your numbers. The numbers are facts based on the investors annual report.

Overall, I probably overreacted, but I interpreted the tone of your post to mean that MickeyMinnieMom's thoughtful and diligent review of the numbers was inappropriate for this forum, but that it's okay to post an op ed piece in a local newspaper. If I wrote a letter to the editor of our local paper about how wonderful my Disney vacation was, do you think they'd print it? Using a single person's opinion as "evidence" of the downhill decline and my interpration that the data in the annual reports shouldn't be used seemed hypocritical to me and I wanted to call it out.

Once again, this has nothing to do with the numbers you reported from the annual report. That poster was going on about data and her "professional opinon" that Disney is not going down hill, all based on HER numbers...which can NOT be qualified. You can't measure the "decline of Disney" by attendance numbers. Everything is subjective and like I said earlier it carries dependencies i.e. the economy etc. Further, I didn't find her post "thoughtful" at all. Not when I'm called a downhiller. I also found her post to be somewhat arrogant. But that's water under the bridge. I don't want to dwell on it. As you know anyone is allowed to post anything they want on this thread as long as it conforms to the DIS board rules. Bottom line this thread is subjective. And, as I stated numerous times Disney is a great vacation. Disney is a GREAT value for us, we have annual passes. I'm a Disneyaholic, I love most everything Disney. But in my opinion there has been a downhill decline on "SOME" things.

I still believe that this thread is simply just people's opinions. No amount of number slicing and dicing, anecdotal "evidence" or other facts/data will convince anyone to change their mind. It's all just your personal experience. Even the article you quoted was just one person's view. It's my opinion that it's the exception, not the norm based on my own personal experiences with Disney.

Yes, exactly. I agree. It's very "subjective"

Back to the original topic. No, I don't think Disney has gone downhill. Instead, they have made lots of improvements over the years and continue to add new and exciting things. Does that mean I like all the changes? Of course not, but the positive far outweighs the negative in my opinion. Obviously, some on here disagree and that's okay.

And that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion. But in some areas of Disney (NOT ALL) I believe they have declined a bit. So, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one and you're right, that's okay.

Again, I didn't mean to attack, but was just hoping to point out how your post could have been interpreted different than perhaps how you intended it.
Okay, thank you for your explanation.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:27 AM   #3359
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Does it really matter?Why of course it does.This discussion is about WDW not DL.It isn't about the whole disney company,its about disney world.You really like to down play attendance don't you.If disney world dropped in attendance again this year that makes 2 years in a row with a decline in attendance.I think most companies are concerned when there is a decline in attendance in back to back years.I guess we will have to wait for the TEA numbers to come out since disney isn't forthcoming with numbers for the world.If you remember last year disney released a similar statement(domestic park attendance up) and after the TEA numbers came out we found out that 3 of the 4 parks at DW had a decline in attendance.

I think it's ironic that you want to point to numbers to somehow prove your theory correct, but yet anytime anyone else points out any numbers to the contrary, you dismiss them.

I said in my post that I'd be interested in seeing the WDW numbers too, but I don't know what that will tell us. This is a thread of emotion, not numbers IMO. A single number can be spun any way you want it. A single number in a vacuum doesn't tell you a thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DOOM1001 View Post
Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.
Of all the negatives you mentioned, we never experienced them with the exception of the Soap Opera weekend thing which was by pure accident as we were in Orlando for training the same weekend. My opinion was that Disney was quite smart to get rid of that ABC tie-in event. But again, it held no interest for our family.

With respect to a replacement for the lights of winter, what do you call the new lights on the castle? Those are fairly new.

You seemed to have forgotten Toy Story Midway Mania added the same year that the Soap Opera thing stopped. Or what about Star Tours 2? Or the ill-fated American Idol attraction. Even though I don't like it, I'm sure some do.

Over at the MK, they have done some great refurb work and added the MMY show too. There was also the Nemo refurb at the Living Seas at Epcot. And SE received a facelift too. The film in Canada was completely redone too.

With respect to the TS cancellation policy. I personally like the fact that guests can't book two placed simultaneously or book things just in case. It makes it difficult for someone like me who really want to eat at a restaurant to book an ADR without doing it 6 months in advance. If this reduces the number of guests who book reservations just to have one "just in case", this will be a very customer friendly change in policy as it helps the rest of us.

In addition to the parks, they have added two new cruise ships for those of us who like to combine a Disney World vacation with a cruise. It's a great tie-in to the overall Disney Florida vacation experience IMO. Again, doesn't apply to everyone but it does to many. No attraction will please everyone.

In addition to FLE that you mentioned, they have refurbed many resorts and added queen size beds to most of the Moderates. The POR princess rooms look awesome for families with small kids. They are adding a new resort with family suites too for a more affordable on-site option for larger families. They have added BLT and rumors are that a new DVC at GF will start. And they did announce an AK expansion too, albiet somewhat controversial.

It's all perspective. If you are not a user of the adds/subtracts, they are meaningless. If something you hold dear is taken away, you'll be upset. If something that excites you is added, you're thrilled.

Again, no evidence that WDW has gone downhill. Just your perspective.



Finally, sorry but can't help but notice that both of the posters I quoted have difficulty with the space bar after sentences. Same person or just the same style?
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:33 PM   #3360
flicx
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Slippin Falls Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOOM1001 View Post
Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.
Very well put.The last decade has been the slowest as far as new atrractions going in.The whole pleasure island thing is a mystery too!
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