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Old 08-11-2010, 12:37 PM   #271
Tiger926
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Originally Posted by NYDisGuy View Post
I'm not sure if I buy this. I'm no where near a Disney defender or apologist but your post is acting like DVC members and constant Disney goers found a loophole in Disney's system by bypassing the expensive parts and creating an affordable vacation. Disney PROVIDED these alternative options for frequent visitors to make your vacations affordable while staying on-site. They even have t.v. shows and DVD's on how to make your trip more affordable. It's not the loyal guests vs. the one time visitors. I know many loyal guests (myself included) who spend alot of money each time they go and I know people who went one time on a budget because they wanted to experience the magic without spending tons of money. Like I said before, an inexpensive vacation to Disney 10-15 years ago was unheard of in many parts of America. Now Disney has provided more options for alot of other families to go, many of which are DVC members because it's more attractive and affordable. Even the discounts Disney hands out would be unheard of years ago. Prices go up everywhere and it's great you cook and save your money on vacation, but it's certainly not the norm with every loyal disney goer.
Not sure I'm following...I didn't say that we as loyal guests found any loopholes. I said as regular guests, we know how to plan out vacations getting the most bang for our buck, whereas first timers won't necessarily know how to access this info. Most people I meet who are asking about Disney have no idea about codes, Free Dining or the like, until I, as a repeat visitor tell them. Do you really believe that Disney doesn't know this? Why do you think you have to ask to receive a discount pin or you must give them the promo code at time of booking? Sure there are more discounts over the past few years, but none of those are a given, so I firmly expect those to dry up soon. Also, unless you know how to access those codes, you aren't going to qualify for that discount. So, they are not just given away by Disney, as guests have to do a bit of work (granted, not much if they visit the website) in order to secure them.

I firmly believe that Disney is banking on first timers or only timers to spend a certain amount of money just on things like: buying bottled water in parks at 2.50 a pop (we freeze ours in our villa that we purchased at Costco and bring into parks), splurging on souveniers and adding the DP without any second thought. I, as a regular don't do any of those things because they cost me more money. So, it's no loophole, but in being a regular guest, I have a certain amount of background knowledge and experience that most first timers or once in a lifetimers just don't have. This knowledge means more money in my pocket, but less in Disney's.

So, am I saying it's loyal guests vs first timers as a bad thing? Nope! I firmly believe though that in all of Disney's financial projections, they have accounted for this. Just come on the DVC boards, and you'll hear lots from members who have issues at DVC, but don't have the same issues when paying cash, or disappearing perks, for example. There is something to be said about loyalty, but it goes both ways. Sure, Disney already has my money for accommodations, but that is all I have to give them. I don't have to step foot into a park, eat their food, nor purchase their souveniers for the next 50 years while I'm a DVC member, whereas first timers or once in a lifetimers don't have that luxury. Most of them stay on-site, and therefore, rely on Disney transport, so they can't go off-site to eat, nor due to their accommodations, can they cook in their villa like I can. Also, if they are at Disney, I'm pretty sure they are going to need park tickets too. So, my point is that those guests surely equal more money into Disney's pockets per trip than a family like mine. There is no loophole at all...it is what it is.

So, do I still keep going back to Disney? Right now, yes. But, we only go 1x per year, and we use lots of tricks to keep our costs down. But, if at such time that I feel my DVC purchase has been downgraded in regards to the accommodations (the point re-allocations did hit us hard 2 years in a row, which means that my DVC vacations actually cost more than when I bought in '04), and in combination with that, the parks are not satisfactory (would have to be something major), then I would contemplate selling. Am I at that point now? No, but I, and many others still have the right, as loyal guests especially, to keep this discussion going. Once people become complacent, then real trouble sets in. Telling people to sell DVC, or, to stop complaining, is very irresponsible, IMHO. Sure, some people like complaining for the sake of complaining, but when you have very loyal guests who have stayed in every resort, eaten in every restaurant, and spent thousands of hours in the parks, I believe that you should listen to those people and seriously consider everything that they have to say, as they are the most loyal fans. And with loyalty, comes a duty to constantly assess and evaluate the product, as that is what will make that product better for all future guests.

Tiger

Last edited by Tiger926; 08-11-2010 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:44 PM   #272
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There are few vacation places that can compete with Disney in entertainment value, though. You can't visit DC, or even upper Michigan for the same amt. I just had to pay $85 for a Super 8 in Sault Ste. Marie, for Heaven's sake. Cedar Point is $50 a day, and there are no bargains to be had for hotels nearby.

I find that for my large family, I can visit Disney, renting points, buy tickets for less than it costs to visit most places.

Vegas for adults comes close if you don't gamble or go to shows. If you gamble you are bound to lose, and the shows have gone out the roof, sadly. I hated the Luxor, and wouldn't stay there for free. It was icky. So perception comes into play, too.

That all said, I think that things have changed. Some changes have made me sad. And sometimes I see a restroom that needs care. Some of that though, is more connected to nasty guests, rather than lack of care by Disney.


Sorry your travel budget must be far bigger than ours.

DH has 7 1/2 weeks of vacation each year and we use every minute of it.

Now I have to admit I don't know how you travel or plan and I don't know what holidays you enjoy so it may be tough to compair.....but our recent trips include....Williamsburg, Gettysburg, New York City for July 4th long weekend, Outer Banks, variety of cruises, Cabin in the Shenandoah Mountains, Maine and Acadia National Park, Grand Canyon, Key West, San Francisco to LA drive (week before our DL trip). We travel comfortably (full size car rentals, balcony cabins on our cruises - though few people can twist a travel deal like I have learned).

Even with Castmember benefits, our Disney trips are still more expensive. (We DID blow the budget with our last trip to Alaska but we added a wedding to the cruise). We still travel to WDW and DL, but now only twice a year. The $$$ we save from that additional 1 week allows us to add a 10-day trip to the itinerary.

...and emotional value, try the south rim of the Grand Canyon, climb Little Round Top, or hike 40 miles from Mt. McKinley. Don't get me wrong, I met my husband, exceptional man, waiting for BTMRR 6 years ago.....but BTMRR doesn't take my breath away.
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:18 PM   #273
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Disney is expensive, no doubt about it. Tickets alone are scary for most people. Budget Boarders and DVCers can pinch some pennies and make it a wee bit less expensive, but it still isn't cheap.

Yeah, I think they've gone downhill and not just the last few years. In fact, the last few years have seen less of a slide than previous years. IMO, anyway.

Disney is soon going to start noticing what allowing lawyers and accountants to run your business will do to it, if they haven't already. Whether they'll keep digging or get someone to pull them out of the hole is anyone's guess, but my guess is that they'll keep digging.

Like previous posters, I'm thrilled with the low-quality merchandise. I spend so much less than I once did.
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:26 PM   #274
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I think at the end of the day, you're missing the point.
Funny, I think the same thing about you!

I'll skip to where you got back on topic ...
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Originally Posted by brunette8706 View Post
I don't need to be a Rhodes Scholar to know when service I receive is sub-par or when a corporation is taking advantage of it's customers.
You do have to apply reasonable criteria based on explicit promise and acceptance, and/or based on comparison to available alternatives though. That's if you want your appraisals to have merit. Sure, anyone can complain. I've said that earlier. Complaining or not complaining isn't the issue. What is the issue is the legitimacy of the complaints, the extent to which they are qualitative assessment or just blowing off some steam.

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You can paint it any way you like but at the end of the day, customers are becoming unhappy with the changes taking place at Disney World.
You keep making statements like that, trying to make it sound like facts, when it is only your opinion. Some customers are becoming unhappy. Other customers are happy. And still other customers are becoming happy. That's the point I made earlier. If you have some objective evidence then we can chat about that, but as your yourself said, you're only voicing your own personal opinion; there is no reason to believe what a casual reader would infer from what you've written here, i.e., your generalization that customers are becoming unhappy.

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Point is, you can only increase prices so long and so much.
Of course, but the insinuation that Disney has or will raise prices "too much" is without foundation. You may personally not like the price increases, but others may not be deterred by them. And if you pay them, then you've ratified them.
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:35 PM   #275
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I wouldn't mind the cost increases so much if Disney used the money to clean up the facilities, improve the food in the restaurants, and did a better job staffing. They made over a billion dollars profit last quarter and they are still cutting programs and increasing prices.
The entire corporation made that profit, not just WDW. WDW made a limited percentage of that amount. And beyond that, WDW is not a strategic operation. It is a regular operation. Regular operations are supposed to contribute substantial profits to the enterprise, to be returned to investors in the form of dividends, and to be used by the corporation to invest in new strategic efforts, such as their recent acquisition of Tapulous, Playdom, and Marvel Entertainment.
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:40 PM   #276
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Us regulars, have figured out how to make our vacations cheaper and cheaper each year, despite Disney raising prices, as we know how to do Disney.
Indeed, and what boggles the mind is when one of us see fit to call ourselves "loyal" customers. In business, "loyal" customers are the ones willing to pay a premium for what you offer. Customers who are only willing to have what you offer cheap aren't "loyal".
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:50 PM   #277
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I think one of the biggest problem with Disney and Disney related vacations is the DIS board. I have never heard so many people complain about so much in my life. I have been a member of this board since September 2006 and I have only made roughly 200 posts. This board is so negative I just get turned off and then every so often i get back on to see if things have changed and of course they have only gotten worse. Don't like the parks, the restaurants or parades, then don't go. If you do go, try to look at the positive things instead of the negative. Just saying.
While I don't agree with your perspective that the DIS boards represent a "problem" for Disney, I do agree that online forums, in general, tend to be a breeding ground for what I often have termed, "the never-ending death-spiral of disaffection". People see the one-sided view of things presented, and get the impression that that legitimizes that one side of things; one reply follows enough painting the picture of doom-and-gloom darker and darker as the disaffection breeds more disaffection.

At the same time, you have people who are happy engaging in mutual support to glorify the offering more and more. So it work both ways. We end up with lots of people who are more positive than they would be, if the Internet didn't prompt them to be, and lots of people who are more negative than the would be, if the Internet didn't prompt them to be. We end up with a big gap in the middle, where most people actually are.

Online discussions have been like this for at least a quarter century. Generally, people post negative things for a variety of reasons, actual failure on the part of the supplier being just one of those reasons. Other reasons include because they're frustrated about not having enough money to afford to do all they want, or being upset for some unrelated reason. And people post positive things for reasons that go beyond actual satisfaction, too.
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:58 PM   #278
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Indeed, and what boggles the mind is when one of us see fit to call ourselves "loyal" customers. In business, "loyal" customers are the ones willing to pay a premium for what you offer. Customers who are only willing to have what you offer cheap aren't "loyal".
I will disagree with your definition of 'loyal' from a business perspective. I really don't think most businesses assume that they can charge their loyal customers whatever premium they want, and they are going to pay it. On the contrary, I think many loyal customers are very savvy, and won't always spend a premium just because they enjoy the product. I will spend more for certain things at Disney, but that is because they also offer wonderful service with that product. I am very loyal to small businesses in my city, but I won't let them rip me off. If something is overpriced, I discuss it with them, but for the most part, nothing is overpriced, as they all have good pulse on their customers, and their competition. For the purpose of this discussion, there is no other Disney, so Disney customers are loyal as there is nothing else like it. When Disney starts to taint this loyalty by overcharging, taking away services or cutting back on staff, then their loyal customers will surely be upset, but can they go elsewhere? Not really, and this is the entire piece of the puzzle that Disney knows is true. Our 'loyalty' is pretty much a given as Disney is a unique and special product/service that has not beem duplicated elsewhere.

I don't think you can make a direct link between how loyal someone is based on how much they spend, unless you are discussing a customer loyalty points/promo based program. Say for instance, I won a lifetime supply of a product. That means I never have to pay for that product again, so by your definition I am not loyal. But, I may be very loyal - am I loyal only because the product is free, or, am I loyal because I absolutely love that product? Or, is it a combination of both. Regardless, I am still using that product, and that would make me loyal to that product. Maybe people don't know that I had been using that product, faithfully for 20 years, entered a contest, and won! I would still be using that product, even if I hadn't won the contest, so I don't think the cost of a product can be directly linked to level of loyalty.

Us Disney regulars are loyal to the Disney Parks/Resorts for the purpose of this discussion. If I never spend another dime in Disney on tix, food or souveniers, I am still considered a loyal customer as I travel there multiple times per year as I'm a DVC owner and have already given them thousands of dollars. I am one of their most loyal guests, or I wouldn't have purchased DVC in the first place. Do I make them the most money? No, but I don't think that is the only definition for loyalty in their book. DVC members bring them new guests, and this is a great perk of having loyal customers. There can be an argument for levels of loyalty though, and that is a different animal altogether. Disney hasn't really shown us this animal up to this point - anyone can get a Fastpass or ride transportation, for example, no matter what resort you are staying at.

I consider myself very loyal to Walt Disney World as I am a DVC member who purchases APs and a TIW card, but, I am also loyal to saving money where it's suitable, so I cook in my villa and bring my own water and snacks into the parks. Disney knows this, or they wouldn't have created full kitchens in their villas. I am still a loyal customer though, as I am frequenting the parks, and so by utilizing a major Disney product in this regard, I would be considered a loyal guest as I spend many hours there. I don't want cheap products either, on the contrary. I would pay for good quality merchandise at Disney, but sadly, that is not the way it is. Now, if Disney started tying loyalty perks to dollars spent, then that would be an entirely different animal altogether, and in that case, in keeping with the OP's original question of whether Disney is going downhill, I would say they definitely have some work to do in this area, especially in the food and merchandise departments. I am not as 'loyal' as I once was in these areas due to declining quality and service.

Tiger

Last edited by Tiger926; 08-11-2010 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 02:44 PM   #279
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Indeed, and what boggles the mind is when one of us see fit to call ourselves "loyal" customers. In business, "loyal" customers are the ones willing to pay a premium for what you offer. Customers who are only willing to have what you offer cheap aren't "loyal".
Back in the "good old days" Disney didn't offer pin codes, free dining or any other discounts. If you couldn't pay full freight back in the 70's, you didn't go. Now, everyone wants their pin code,free dining or they want to stay for 7 and pay for 4 or they're not going. As long as the "loyal" customers are demanding discounts, quality is not going to be what it was when Disney was getting full price.

Every time the food quality complaint comes up I remember the days before the DP and "free" dining. We could go to MK for the day, and get lunch or dinner reservations at Cinderella's Royal Table or Crystal Palace and the food was fantastic. We even walked up to Le Cellier more than once!! Since the DP, forget it. You have to plan at least a month in advance and it's just not the same. However, DP is extremely popular with guests, so it's not going away anytime soon.

As for the CM issue-I see it from the other side. Disney hires more PT, seasonal and CP workers than ever before. In many cases, but certainly not all, those folks are not working there because they want to be part of the magic. They either want the free tickets for their family, or they want to put something cool on the resume or they think spending a semester in WDW beats school. Full time employees tend to be the folks who dreamed of working there, who love the parks and the heritage.

No matter what status the CM is, it's likely that they will have at least one encounter a shift with a guest who is going to be verbally abusive to them. That doesn't excuse poor CM behavior, but it is something to think about the next time a CM you encounter doesn't seem as lit up with Pixie Dust as you'd like.
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:01 PM   #280
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Funny, I think the same thing about you!

I'll skip to where you got back on topic ...You do have to apply reasonable criteria based on explicit promise and acceptance, and/or based on comparison to available alternatives though. That's if you want your appraisals to have merit. Sure, anyone can complain. I've said that earlier. Complaining or not complaining isn't the issue. What is the issue is the legitimacy of the complaints, the extent to which they are qualitative assessment or just blowing off some steam.

You keep making statements like that, trying to make it sound like facts, when it is only your opinion. Some customers are becoming unhappy. Other customers are happy. And still other customers are becoming happy. That's the point I made earlier. If you have some objective evidence then we can chat about that, but as your yourself said, you're only voicing your own personal opinion; there is no reason to believe what a casual reader would infer from what you've written here, i.e., your generalization that customers are becoming unhappy.

Of course, but the insinuation that Disney has or will raise prices "too much" is without foundation. You may personally not like the price increases, but others may not be deterred by them. And if you pay them, then you've ratified them.
Not sure if you're getting "defensive" or simply have a superiority complex. My guess is a little of both but more of the latter!!

You are most certainly free to express your "opinion" as that is all you have done here. While I'm at it, as it is "my" post, not sure how "I" can be "off topic"! If it makes you feel better however, by all means, carry on!

I'll be right here to answer any intelligent reply you may choose to make that is "on topic" as you have yet to quantify any of your assumptions. I have concluded that you are simply attempting to become the consumate tempest in a tea pot by promulgating your narrow minded point of view and projecting it on everyone else. Sorry sir but I don't have to answer to you in any fashion and find your contrite words actually, boring.

Have a magical day!!
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:07 PM   #281
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Great post!! Well said
Oh, and the ignore function is awesome! just saying
Thanks Lucky!

Seeing as how you have your ignore function engaged, you missed quite the tsunami of posts!! Not to worry, you didn't miss much!!

Have a good one!
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:24 PM   #282
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Not sure I'm following...I didn't say that we as loyal guests found any loopholes. I said as regular guests, we know how to plan out vacations getting the most bang for our buck, whereas first timers won't necessarily know how to access this info. Most people I meet who are asking about Disney have no idea about codes, Free Dining or the like, until I, as a repeat visitor tell them. Do you really believe that Disney doesn't know this? Why do you think you have to ask to receive a discount pin or you must give them the promo code at time of booking? Sure there are more discounts over the past few years, but none of those are a given, so I firmly expect those to dry up soon. Also, unless you know how to access those codes, you aren't going to qualify for that discount. So, they are not just given away by Disney, as guests have to do a bit of work (granted, not much if they visit the website) in order to secure them.

I firmly believe that Disney is banking on first timers or only timers to spend a certain amount of money just on things like: buying bottled water in parks at 2.50 a pop (we freeze ours in our villa that we purchased at Costco and bring into parks), splurging on souveniers and adding the DP without any second thought. I, as a regular don't do any of those things because they cost me more money. So, it's no loophole, but in being a regular guest, I have a certain amount of background knowledge and experience that most first timers or once in a lifetimers just don't have. This knowledge means more money in my pocket, but less in Disney's.

So, am I saying it's loyal guests vs first timers as a bad thing? Nope! I firmly believe though that in all of Disney's financial projections, they have accounted for this. Just come on the DVC boards, and you'll hear lots from members who have issues at DVC, but don't have the same issues when paying cash, or disappearing perks, for example. There is something to be said about loyalty, but it goes both ways. Sure, Disney already has my money for accommodations, but that is all I have to give them. I don't have to step foot into a park, eat their food, nor purchase their souveniers for the next 50 years while I'm a DVC member, whereas first timers or once in a lifetimers don't have that luxury. Most of them stay on-site, and therefore, rely on Disney transport, so they can't go off-site to eat, nor due to their accommodations, can they cook in their villa like I can. Also, if they are at Disney, I'm pretty sure they are going to need park tickets too. So, my point is that those guests surely equal more money into Disney's pockets per trip than a family like mine. There is no loophole at all...it is what it is.

So, do I still keep going back to Disney? Right now, yes. But, we only go 1x per year, and we use lots of tricks to keep our costs down. But, if at such time that I feel my DVC purchase has been downgraded in regards to the accommodations (the point re-allocations did hit us hard 2 years in a row, which means that my DVC vacations actually cost more than when I bought in '04), and in combination with that, the parks are not satisfactory (would have to be something major), then I would contemplate selling. Am I at that point now? No, but I, and many others still have the right, as loyal guests especially, to keep this discussion going. Once people become complacent, then real trouble sets in. Telling people to sell DVC, or, to stop complaining, is very irresponsible, IMHO. Sure, some people like complaining for the sake of complaining, but when you have very loyal guests who have stayed in every resort, eaten in every restaurant, and spent thousands of hours in the parks, I believe that you should listen to those people and seriously consider everything that they have to say, as they are the most loyal fans. And with loyalty, comes a duty to constantly assess and evaluate the product, as that is what will make that product better for all future guests.

Tiger
Again, I think your generalizing a huge base of people without any quantification. There are many loyal guests that spend money at restaurants and on souveniers every trip. There are other one-time goers that don't spend anything but on accomodations and tickets. On the contrary, Disney counts on the people who go all the time because they have the potential to continually spend money. The one time goer isnt' spending $25,000 on their trip like the DVC'rs and the other repeat guests do over a period of time.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:48 PM   #283
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Again, I think your generalizing a huge base of people without any quantification. There are many loyal guests that spend money at restaurants and on souveniers every trip. There are other one-time goers that don't spend anything but on accomodations and tickets. On the contrary, Disney counts on the people who go all the time because they have the potential to continually spend money. The one time goer isnt' spending $25,000 on their trip like the DVC'rs and the other repeat guests do over a period of time.
I will agree that as a loyal or repeat visitor, that I will spend a good amount at Disney, but I don't think you can assume that it will always be more than a whole bunch of one time Disney guests. It takes a lot of one time goers to spend their money, and that is what Disney is counting on, IMHO. Obviously, I will spend more as a DVC member going multiple times per year, than my neighbor who goes 1x, but you can't compare to my neighbor solely. You have to multiple my neigbhour by the thousands of new one timers they get each and every month, and I believe that this amount will surpass what I will spend at Disney, as I can do Disney cheaper just by virtue of the fact that I get discounts on tickets, and I don't have to spend 1 penny on Disney food.

As I said, a lot of DVC members eat in their rooms - Disney knows this, since they put kitchenettes and full kitchens in our villas. I have a choice where to spend my dining dollars, but most one timers do not. They have to eat on-site, as they are staying on-site.

Now, is this how it is with all guests? Of course not, but I'm betting it's like this for a lot of one timers, and that is why Disney can get away with cutting staff, chopping down menus and continually raising prices. The one timers have no basis for comparison, and most will probably be happy with just about anything Disney gives them, whereas repeat guests have lots to compare from multiple trips, over multiple years, and are a bit more discerning about the product that they have been loyal to for years. I especially think this is true for the package guests - many of them have a budget in mind, and plan a trip around that. They spend on food, souveniers and other incidentals far more than us loyal guests, as they package it up. So, if the DP goes up it isn't as noticeable, as it's added to an already large vacation package.

In reference to the OP's question, I guess we'll have to disagree about how Disney sees its loyal guests. I would suspect if they thought about us as you think, they wouldn't raise prices for subpar food and service. If their loyal guests were a huge priority, then they would frequently change menus, and offer new and varied experiences, yet they don't. As I stated, I don't feel it's going downhill, but the potential is there for a serious backslide in the food and park departments. It's us loyal or repeat guests who will notice changes more - whether they are positive or negative. If you go all of the time, you are a loyal customer, and thus you know the product well. You also notice that the costs for this same product are going up at a much higher rate than inflation; therefore, guest loyalty for some, might not be as strong. You also have the potential to get bored very easily, and this is where Disney is forgetting its loyal guests - you need to change things up for those loyal guests who go all of the time. Sure, there needs to be an air of nostalgia in certain areas, so you don't want to change too much, but certainly in the area of food, resort themes, characters, etc., you can change things up in order to keep your loyal guests happy with the product.

I think loyalty is a two-way street - if you give me a great product with great service at a fair price, then I will keep coming back, even if prices go up from time to time. Once you deviate from this, I then have the choice to go elsewhere. For me, I still am going back, but some trips, I don't feel like a valued DVC member at all, and over time, if this continues to happen, it might change my love and loyalty toward Disney.

Tiger

Last edited by Tiger926; 08-11-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:56 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by brunette8706 View Post


Not sure if you're getting "defensive" or simply have a superiority complex. My guess is a little of both but more of the latter!!

You are most certainly free to express your "opinion" as that is all you have done here. While I'm at it, as it is "my" post, not sure how "I" can be "off topic"! If it makes you feel better however, by all means, carry on!

I'll be right here to answer any intelligent reply you may choose to make that is "on topic" as you have yet to quantify any of your assumptions. I have concluded that you are simply attempting to become the consumate tempest in a tea pot by promulgating your narrow minded point of view and projecting it on everyone else. Sorry sir but I don't have to answer to you in any fashion and find your contrite words actually, boring.

Have a magical day!!
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:40 PM   #285
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Prices are rising EVERYWHERE. Inflation is out of control for ALL things not just Disney, due to American debt being out of control and the dollar being worth less. I thought Disney was wonderful in February, the food wasn't that impressive, especially at buffets (my husband said the only way we could go back to Disney is if I promised we never had to eat at Crystal Palace again) but I'm not complaining I still loved it!
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