Fort Wilderness Train Article

[FlaFortCampster]

Hey all. The Fort Wilderness Train, one of my passions. Just read this article in Allears.com There no new info, but some of the comments following the article were interesting I don't agree with some of the story. For instance, it says the train was used the same as the buses now. Not true. There were only 2 stops, the Outpost and the Settlement Post. Also, the engines that were purchased by folks wanting to restore them are still working on this daunting task. I believe one of the coaches is still at Typhoon Lagoon in a rather sorry state. Also, I think there are a few sections of track left, but getting to them is very difficult. As for the trestles, I'm not sure where you can still see one. There are many ties left and much of the roadbed is quite visible especially around the Meadows Trading Post.

But for those of you who might want to read a little bit about the wonderful train that once graced the campground here you go. PS - I made a few comments myself. They appear in bold red. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

FORT WILDERNESS TRAIN BY JACK
It’s interesting what fond memories the Fort Wilderness Railroad conjures up in so many of us considering its short life. It only ran between 1973 and 1977. Still, this little train made a big impact and continues to cause us to wax nostalgic when we think of it.





Originally built at a cost of $1M, these trains were used to transport guests around Ft. Wilderness in the same manner the buses do today. They ran from 7am to 11pm and guests could ride all day for $1. The scenery was magnificent as you traveled beneath a pine and cypress forest, over canals, and through meadows. You didn’t need a destination. Riding was sufficient.








If this train was so great, then why did the Fort Wilderness Railroad have such a short life? Well, there are several reasons and they all combined to create a headache for Disney – a headache that aspirin alone couldn’t cure.
The design for the Fort Wilderness Railroad was based on narrow-gauge plantation locomotives that were used in Hawaii to haul sugarcane and pineapples from the fields to the docks. They were reliable and considered steadfast workhorses.
The four Fort Wilderness engines and rolling stock (five cars per train) were built in California by Mapo, Disney’s engineering and development department. Built at 4/5 scale, these engines had a 2-4-2T wheel design and used diesel fuel to heat the water for steam. Fully loaded, each train could accommodate 90 passengers.





The total length of the Fort Wilderness track was twice as long as the track that circles the Magic Kingdom. Yet, the Fort Wilderness engines only held 225 gallons of water and 175 gallons of fuel compared to the Magic Kingdom’s engines which carry 1,837 gallons of water and 664 gallons of fuel. This decreased capacity required the trains to make frequent stops to replenish their supplies – an often overlooked detail. It wasn’t uncommon for a train to run out of “gas” and be stranded on the tracks.
Much of this inattention could be attributed to Disney’s desire to save money. Rather than hire a professional railroad crew, inexperienced workers were employed off the street. These cast members were given the “basics” of steam train operations, but in essence, they were simply ride operators with no experience in running a railroad. A steam engine is a complicated piece of machinery with temperaments that require constant attention, something these undertrained cast members simply weren’t equipped to provide.
Another problem had to do with the roadbed. Corners were cut while laying the rails, installing the spikes, and placing the ballast. Because of this, the tracks often shifted and derailments were common. Repairs and maintenance were an ongoing nightmare.
There were also complaints from guests that the trains were too noisy and disturbed the tranquility of the campground. Since they started operation at 7am, campers did not appreciate being jolted out of their sleeping bags to the sound of the engines’ whistle. In addition, there were no barriers between the track and the campsites. There was nothing to prevent a child from wandering onto the rails as you can see in this next picture.





Eventually it was decided that the Fort Wilderness Railroad was more trouble that it was worth and Disney did not want to invest any more capital to fix the problems. The trains were retired and eventually found themselves in a field exposed to the elements. After years of neglect, several members of the Carolwood Pacific Historical Society purchased the decaying trains and have restored them to their original beauty.
Two of the coaches were briefly used as ticket booths at Pleasure Island, but they too were eventually replaced by permanent structures.
All of the track has been removed from Fort Wilderness, but you can still see some of the trestles that once spanned the canals.





It’s a shame this endeavor wasn’t undertaken properly in the beginning. If it had been, maybe we’d still be riding this lovely train today rather than buses on our way to the Hoop-Dee-Doo Musical Review.

COMMENTS

It's not really that much of a shame if it would involve disturbing campers at 7 am who paid a lot for that camp site.

Also, I just don't see how you would combine enough safety to keep a wandering child off the tracks yet still have pleasing aesthetics of the look of the whole thing.

At least a bus can pretty much stop.

Overall, though, I think that a more interesting system than a typical city bus should be employed to do the basic job of shuttling people around the campground.

A horse drawn trolley or large wagon would be good (and somewhat quiet). Maybe tractor driven instead of horse drawn. The tractor could be propane powered with good mufflers.

Electric open air vehicles?

Posted by Ron | July 27, 2009 8:02 PM

OBVIOUSLY NOT A FORT FIEND

Posted on July 27, 2009 20:02

Tim Hallam:
Great article Jack! As an engineer for the Norfolk Southern Railroad, I can explain the licensing aspect for steam ops. Years ago, there was no requirement for a license to operate; it was left in the hands of the owner/operator to train. After a few incidents on tourist haulers (steam engines tend to explode with low boiler water) the fed stepped in. Now all engineers are certified by the Federal Rail Administration with steam operation being a special designation above and beyond diesel ops. Looking forward to your next blog.

Posted by Tim Hallam | July 28, 2009 11:05 AM

Posted on July 28, 2009 11:05

Jessica:
Wow thanks for that little piece of history. That is a neat story. Wish I could've seen it in action.

Posted by Jessica | July 28, 2009 11:43 AM

Posted on July 28, 2009 11:43

Danielle Harmon:
Jack,

Great blog! I can only imagine what a beautiful addition to the resort the trains could have been, had the idea been implemented properly. Just goes to show that doing it right the first time costs less than cleaning up the mess of a job poorly done.

Posted by Danielle Harmon | July 28, 2009 2:36 PM

Posted on July 28, 2009 14:36

John:
On my first visit to WDW in 1976, I recall having to ride a train to get to what was, at the time, the only water park (can't even remember the name of it). Is this the same train? And whatever became of that water park? I DO remember that the pools were heated, but the slides emptied into the lake and that water was COLD!

Jack's Answer:

The water park was called River Country -- and yes, the train I wrote about took you there.

After Blizzard Beach and Typhoon Lagoon opened, there just wasn't a need for this lesser water park. Also, River Country was connected to Bay Lake, which sometimes has dangerous bacteria in the water.


Posted by John | July 28, 2009 2:40 PM

Posted on July 28, 2009 14:40

Meagan:
I'm too young to have ever experienced this, but i've read about it and it sounds awesome!! I even found one of those RR spikes in a pile of pine needles. Sometimes i wish i had picked it up and took home a lil slice of Disney history, but then again...what would i do w/ the spike?


Was the bridget to the meadow ever part of the tracks?

Great blog!

Jack's Answer:

Wow! Too bad you didn't keep the spike. I would love to have it. Besides loving Disney, I'm a train buff.

As to your question about the bridge to the Meadows, I really don't know. I suspect it wasn't, but I can't say for sure.

NO, IT WASN'T


Posted by Meagan | July 28, 2009 3:16 PM

Posted on July 28, 2009 15:16

Kim:
Even more convenient was the tram that used to run before the current bus system. The trams were similar to the trams used at the theme parks to transport gusts to the parking lots. It made traveling through Fort Wilderness a lot more fun!

Posted by Kim | July 28, 2009 4:10 PM

Posted on July 28, 2009 16:10

Daniel:
another great article. question do you know where i can see a gallery of those vintage posters or where i can purchase a print?

Jack's Answer:

The Art of Disney at Downtown Disney sells some of the attraction posters, but I don't know how extensive their collection is. The poster you saw in my blog I found on the internet.

Posted by Daniel | July 28, 2009 5:52 PM

Posted on July 28, 2009 17:52

Sarah Haas:
Jack, To your reader asking about the "Vintage Posters": Sid Cahuenga's One-of-a-Kind shop in Hollywood Studios also has them. We got a three on our last trip. They look great framed!

Posted by Sarah Haas | July 29, 2009 11:01 AM

Posted on July 29, 2009 11:01

Jack:
Jack,

Thanks for the memories. Our first visit to the Fort was in 1976. To the person who said that it would be upsetting to the folks who paid so much for their sites, I remind everyone that a premium site only cost $12 a night then.

Also Jack we had the trams running in the campground and we loved to see them as we sat at the open theater at twilight. You could see them lit up and not hear them and that was something magical.

We have been going every year to Disney since then and now have a place at an RV park 7 miles from World Drive. Please keep up the good work. By the way we just got off the phone with our son who is a VP for Disney in California.

Jack

Posted by Jack | July 29, 2009 4:18 PM

Posted on July 29, 2009 16:18

Jack:
Jack,

River Country was not open in 1976. Please keep on giving us the wonderful stories.

Jack

Jack's Answer:

Actually, River Country was officially opened in June 1976 by Susan Ford, daughter of President Ford.

Posted by Jack | July 29, 2009 4:21 PM

Posted on July 29, 2009 16:21

Travis:
Great blog!

As a current employee of a railroad, I'm intrigued to hear about the operations of WDW's various rail systems. I would love to hire on with WDW after retirement and work on their railroad!

Which brings up an interesting question:
Are the rail workers at WDW (or any other Disney park) union? If so, which union are they members of?

Jack's Answer:

Disney World has many retired people working in a variety of jobs. This is a great place to work part time. But keep in mind, cast members work while others play. That means you sometimes work nights, weekends, and most certainly holidays. There are many rewards to be had here, but people need to enter this area of employment with their eyes wide open.

Disney World has a number of unions covering everything from bartenders to bus drivers. However, I have no idea what union, if any, covers the train staff.


Posted by Travis | July 29, 2009 5:17 PM

Posted on July 29, 2009 17:17

Kim:
WOW, what memories this brought back, my first trip to Disney was spent here and we did do River Country and ride the trains...my kids laugh when I tell them River Country's big attraction was basically a slide that emptied into a "regular" pool and some lazy rivers and tubes, etc. but back in the day-that was some "wild" stuff!

Posted by Kim | July 29, 2009 8:45 PM

Posted on July 29, 2009 20:45

Rob:
Awesome Blog!! I'm a huge train buff too and feel the retirement of the train at Fort Wilderness is a great loss to the history of WDW and to Fort Wilderness in general. I have never stayed at Fort Wilderness myself but visit frequently to eat and enjoy the nostalgia of the area. I find the golf carts really subtract from the place. I wish they could find another solution. There tends to so many Golf cart at times the place looks like a parking lot or sales lot for them. It really destroys the "western feel", nostalgia, and general enjoyment of the wilderness and the great outdoors. In addition from what I have heard from my friends that have stayed there transportation (or lack there of) is their biggest complaint.
I for one would love to see a train return to Fort Wilderness Campground! Thanks for the post!!

Rob


Posted by Rob | July 29, 2009 11:40 PM

Posted on July 29, 2009 23:40

Meredith Koeval:
Hi, Jack. Enjoyed this blog as our family loves Ft. Wilderness and has stayed here many times. While we are reminiscing about by-gone days at Ft. Wilderness, didn't they also have trams that drove guests to locations at the resort? I seem to remember them from back in the mid-80s when I stayed with a friend at the campground.

Thanks -- and looking forward to your answer!

Meredith

Jack's Answer:

I never personally saw the trams, but they did indeed transport people around the campground for several years. I suspect in the end, they weren't as efficient as the buses and that lead to their demise.

Posted by Meredith Koeval | July 30, 2009 11:30 AM

Posted on July 30, 2009 11:30

Todd Burnidge:
Hi Jack,

Our first visit to Walt Disney World was in the 80s so we missed the train at the Campground. "The Only Campground Located Inside Walt Disney World".

I wished they would have figured out a way to keep it because that would be pretty cool.

Posted by Todd Burnidge | July 30, 2009 2:11 PM

Posted on July 30, 2009 14:11

Mac:
Great article Jack. Had the occasion a couple of times to stay at the campground during the years of the train. A few interesting things that you may not have known, in October 2007, there was a meeting of the Carolwood Historical Society, at which the Gold Spike Room at the Wilderness Lodge was dedicated to Roger Broggie. On that weekend, there was a walking tour of the old railroad track. As you mentioned, of course, the track is long gone, and many of the interesting facts that you stated, was talked about on the tour. We had the advantage of two former "cast members" who were engineers for the train and they related many interesting and unexpected experiences. It's a miracle that all problems were minor. However, the one engineer related how they would need to stop at the water tower near the Meadows Trading Post for water almost every trip. The train coming down the hill crossing the bridge, and then crossing the road near the water tower was very difficult to stop acurately. It of course, was critical to stop the train so the hatch in the tender was directly below the water spout. The engineer related that for all of the "cast members" this was nearly an impossible feat, to stop directly under the spout. There was one engineer who was able to stop the train almost every time directly under the spout, by using only the Johnson Bar (throttle). Thus stopping the train without using the brake, and the thing that makes this so unique, is the engineer was a female and none of the male engineers could duplicate her feat. Also, I might mention there is a book being written about the Walt Disney Theme Park Railroads that will be published in the future. This will also include extensive histories of the monorails, etc. Mac

Posted by Mac | July 31, 2009 6:05 PM

ACTUALLY, THE WATER TOWER WAS AT THE OUTPOST. THE REMAINS OF THE WATER TOWER CAN NOW BE SEEN AT THE MEADOWS POOL.

Posted on July 31, 2009 18:05

Hope when the book is published they have all the facts straight.

[Shan-man]

Actually, this was the water tower at the outpost station:



Note the straight sides. This water tower (now poolside):



Has bowed sides and was originally near the Settlement and River Country.

[FlaFortCampster]

Originally Posted by Shan-man

Actually, this was the water tower at the outpost station:



Note the straight sides. This water tower (now poolside):



Has bowed sides and was originally near the Settlement and River Country.

I see the changes, but just going by what has been reported in several articles, stories and posts over the years....
This one is from a forum of Disney Railroad lovers:

That train had a lot of problems. One was that the whistles were calibrated to be herd 100 yards away, this was done in Glendale CA. Big city agents a campground. There was also an accident. To read more visit www.fortwildernessrr.com this is the official unofficial web site for Fort Wilderness Railroad. And also the train only went from the parking lot to the settlement. In fact the parking lot station is still there as well as the water tower. The station is now were you wait fore the busses to downtown Disney and AK. The water tower was moved to the entrance to water Country. All this info is on the site I just listed. One of the cars in the parking of typhoon Lagoon.

One other little note of interest, the logo on the side of the "pool" water tower was not the original logo for the train either. Micheal Campbell design this logo. He also is currently restoring one of the engines.



David Leaphart, who has posted here recently, is writing a book on the FWRR. I have a feeling it will be quite interesting when it's done and available.

[FlaFortCampster]

Spent the last hour catching up on the latest on the FWRR. The tower at the pool is NOT from River Country, but was built new for the pool. As far as I have read so far though, the tower was moved from the Outpost to River Country.

Do you remember the April Fool's joke about the logo being changed to Musket Mickey......This created quite a stir on one of the Railroad forums and the doctored up picture was posted there. Too funny. They finally realized it was a joke and posted a true photo.

[Shan-man]

I don't mean to come across argumentative, but I believe both of those statements are in error. If the tower from the Gateway Outpost station was moved to River Country, then they replaced every part of it except perhaps the roof! The base was completely different and the tank was completely different, so I would call that a different tower. The poolside tower was erected mere weeks after the RC tower was removed, and matches the shape and size. Unless the new one is fiberglass and they used the old one to make a mold, I can't imagine that they are not one-in-the-same. I submit that the railfan guys have made another mistake in reporting, like they did with my Musket Mickey tank repaint

[Shan-man]

For comparison, here is a pic of the RC tank just before removal:


Photo courtesy of TCD.

Notice that the base is a four-post design versus 6. The tank bulges. The spout is a different shape (no flare).

[FlaFortCampster]

So far, this is what I have been able to find out from a VERY reliable source. The water tower at the entrance to River Country and the tower at the pool are 2 different water towers. This info comes from the gentleman who designed the logo that is now on the side of the pool water tower.
He also said he too has heard the rumor that the water tower in front of River Country had come from the old FWRR. However, one valid point he makes is that River Country was open while the train was still operating and there was only one tower, at the Outpost, on the line. The mystery continues. (I don't think the tower was part of River Country when it opened, but was moved after the train closed.) He suggested another gentleman that might have more info, so I'll try to contact him, in the mean time........the debate continues, but it's rather interesting!!!

[FlaFortCampster]

Here's the info on the water tower and this comes from a gentleman, David Leaphart, who is writing a book on Disney World railroads with a chapter devoted to the Fort Wilderness Train.
Shan-man is correct. The FWRR tower was dismantled and not used at River Country. The rumor has been killed. The River Country tower, as seen in the photos, was a completely different tower. It too was dismantled and no one seems to know its fate.
The Meadows pool is a brand new tower and sports Micheal Campbell's FWRR logo. And that is the rest of the story.......

[Shan-man]

I would still like to know where David gets this information that the poolside tower is not the one from RC. It just seems too coincidental that they remove the RC tower, after it sat idle at the abandoned water park for a decade, just a few weeks before an identically shaped and sized tower appears poolside at the Meadows... seriously? I don't buy it. I would wager significant body parts that this is the RC tower, all due respect to Mr. Leaphart!

(BTW, the RC tower was not dismantled, a spy got a shot of it back-stage after it was removed from RC. If it was not going to be reused, why would they have not demolished it upon removal?)

[RocklandRVers]

I love this board! I hope one day to be a contestant on Jeopardy and hope they have a show devoted to Disney trivia. We could have one category just for the railroad!

Thanks to all the Disney fanatics who keep the magic alive.

[Tri-circle-D]

Originally Posted by FlaFortCampster

Spent the last hour catching up on the latest on the FWRR. The tower at the pool is NOT from River Country, but was built new for the pool. As far as I have read so far though, the tower was moved from the Outpost to River Country.

Do you remember the April Fool's joke about the logo being changed to Musket Mickey......This created quite a stir on one of the Railroad forums and the doctored up picture was posted there. Too funny. They finally realized it was a joke and posted a true photo.

FFC- Can you provide a link to wherever it is that you are reading this information? I did not see any photos of the new slide structure at the Meadow pool on the ftwildernessrr.com site. Is there another site where this is being discussed?

Originally Posted by FlaFortCampster

Here's the info on the water tower and this comes from a gentleman, David Leaphart, who is writing a book on Disney World railroads with a chapter devoted to the Fort Wilderness Train.
Shan-man is correct. The FWRR tower was dismantled and not used at River Country. The rumor has been killed. The River Country tower, as seen in the photos, was a completely different tower. It too was dismantled and no one seems to know its fate.
The Meadows pool is a brand new tower and sports Micheal Campbell's FWRR logo. And that is the rest of the story.......

Having carefully watched the construction of the tower and slide at the pool, I know for sure that the tower itself is new, but I am certain that the tank is the tank that was at the River Country entrance. The new tower structure is steel and painted to look like wood. The old tower at River Country was wood. The tank, though, is the same tank. It even has the same hardware.

Originally Posted by Shan-man

I would still like to know where David gets this information that the poolside tower is not the one from RC. It just seems too coincidental that they remove the RC tower, after it sat idle at the abandoned water park for a decade, just a few weeks before an identically shaped and sized tower appears poolside at the Meadows... seriously? I don't buy it. I would wager significant body parts that this is the RC tower, all due respect to Mr. Leaphart!

(BTW, the RC tower was not dismantled, a spy got a shot of it back-stage after it was removed from RC. If it was not going to be reused, why would they have not demolished it upon removal?)

I agree with Shan-man. The water tank used at the Meadow pool is definitely the same tank that was removed from the River Country entrance in December 2008. The tower structure upon which the tank sits is new, but the tank is the same one. I even have a sheet of the plans for the pool that indicates that the tank was to be supplied by the owner (WDW) and not the contractor.

I think that everyone agrees that this River Country tank was not used for the FWRR. I believe the River Country water tower was at the River Country entrance from day one.

I believe that the current FW management claim that the water tower now at the pool was formerly used by the FWRR is simply not true. The tank was used at River Country, and the tower itself is new.

TCD

[Shan-man]

Originally Posted by Tri-circle-D

I think that everyone agrees that this River Country tank was not used for the FWRR. I believe the River Country water tower was at the River Country entrance from day one.

I never knew for sure if the one at RC was a working tank or not. I knew that folks took the train to get back to RC, so another operating tank at RC would not have surprised me. I was, however, quite sure that the two tanks were not one in the same. As cool as I think it is that they used the FWRR fan-site's logo, I kinda wish they would have repainted it with the RC logo, as an homage to the beloved and departed park.

[Tri-circle-D]

Originally Posted by Shan-man

I never knew for sure if the one at RC was a working tank or not. I knew that folks took the train to get back to RC, so another operating tank at RC would not have surprised me. I was, however, quite sure that the two tanks were not one in the same. As cool as I think it is that they used the FWRR fan-site's logo, I kinda wish they would have repainted it with the RC logo, as an homage to the beloved and departed park.

Shan- As you know, the FWRR's Settlement Depot was located just outside the 700 loop. From here, the train headed back toward the Outpost. The River Country water tower was a long way away from the train tracks. The River Country water tower "leaked" and spurted water in much the same way that it does now at the pool. If you do a search on youtube for River Country, you will find some pretty good old footage of River Country. And, some of these old videos show the water tower at the River Country entrance. I haven't found one yet that absolutely sets the date it was filmed, but some of these are clearly old videos. This adds further weight to my believe that the River Country water tower was on site at River Country from when in opened in 1976, and was not ever used by the FWRR.

I have never seen a photo of any water tower used by the FWRR other than the one formerly located at the Gateway Depot. I have never heard anyone say that there was more than one water tower used by the FWRR.

And, for what it's worth, I also think it was dumb of the Fort management to use an unofficial FWRR logo on the water tower at the slide. Why? This logo on the pool water tower is about the only reference you will see at the Fort to the old railroad.

The tank at the pool came from River Country, not the railroad.

TCD

[DavidLeaphart]

Originally Posted by FlaFortCampster

Here's the info on the water tower and this comes from a gentleman, David Leaphart, who is writing a book on Disney World railroads with a chapter devoted to the Fort Wilderness Train.
Shan-man is correct. The FWRR tower was dismantled and not used at River Country. The rumor has been killed. The River Country tower, as seen in the photos, was a completely different tower. It too was dismantled and no one seems to know its fate.
The Meadows pool is a brand new tower and sports Micheal Campbell's FWRR logo..

In the process of further researching information for my new book on the railroad, I had the opportunity to check with more sources on the water tower. I did find that the water tower at the pool is indeed a refurb of the old River Country tower, so I stand corrected on that. As much as I love the old railroad, I agree with Shan-man. The RC logo should be on the new tower....

Being there a couple times this summer, it was really nice to see the kids (and their parents!) enjoying the new slide and pool area!

David

[Tri-circle-D]

Originally Posted by DavidLeaphart

In the process of further researching information for my new book on the railroad, I had the opportunity to check with more sources on the water tower. I did find that the water tower at the pool is indeed a refurb of the old River Country tower, so I stand corrected on that. As much as I love the old railroad, I agree with Shan-man. The RC logo should be on the new tower....

Being there a couple times this summer, it was really nice to see the kids (and their parents!) enjoying the new slide and pool area!

David

Thank you for clarifying this. Although some of us already knew we were right, it is good to know that you now have the correct information for your book.

TCD