Disney Information Station Logo

Go Back   The DIS Discussion Forums - DISboards.com > Just for Fun > Disney Collectors Board
Find Hotel Specials & DIScounts
 
facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS UpdatesDIS email updates
Register Chat FAQ Tickers Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read





Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 03-30-2011, 01:14 PM   #1306
ratcatshell
Touched by the Tag Fairy!
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 153

ebay

Anyone have any dealings with the seller evaandmike? I have been watching the actions and it seems like good prices. I searched for the seller name on this thread and didn't find anything. Thanks!
ratcatshell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2011, 03:35 PM   #1307
pixiewings71
Sweet!!! Totally!!!!!
YAY for good weather!
It's that Disney Magic, I don't know how it works but it does!
 
pixiewings71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Suisun City CA
Posts: 22,233

Quote:
Originally Posted by debranator View Post
girl..what are you saying?
You bought a bunch of pins...
[I will NOT say..I told you so]
and almost all were fake.
and you say..
you would be willing to try therm again as they sent them so fast?
Who cares how fast scrappers send their stuff?
and...
you are so worried as to what folks think..
that...
if someone else did luck out and get a real pin from them..
after you got mostly fakes...
they may not be crooked?
I must be reading wrong..
get your money back...
you do not have to buy from every scrapper on ebay..
to realize that they are scrappers.
pinpros pins are obviously scrappers..just by the pins they sell.
I do hope they gave you a refund.
31 pins is not a bunch..and yes I give every seller 2 tries, especially when I get the mixture of good and bad/questionable pins. This is MY way of doing it, I've always done it that way, after the 2nd try if the pins are still bad I don't buy from them again. I didn't ask for a refund, the price I paid was small enough I won't worry about it, we will trade the good ones and we've already snapped posts off some others or put others on our cork boards to use as push pins, it isn't worth it to ask for a refund. You don't have to like the way I chose to buy from eBay but it works for me and I will continue to do it. I don't accuse every seller with cheap pins of having scrappers until I've made a purchase of my own and can make the determination myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratcatshell View Post
Anyone have any dealings with the seller evaandmike? I have been watching the actions and it seems like good prices. I searched for the seller name on this thread and didn't find anything. Thanks!
I've never heard of this seller, sorry.

I received the pins from postcards today, only 4 but they are 100% legit. I would not hesitate to buy from them again.
__________________
Kerri DBF DD18 DD14

We took 14 trips from July 07-July 08 and around 16 from Jan 09-Jan 10. We did 5 trips 2011-2012. 2012-2013 4 trips.


eBay and pins http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2213419

Last edited by pixiewings71; 03-30-2011 at 03:41 PM.
pixiewings71 is offline   Reply With Quote
|
The DIS
Register to remove

Join Date: 1997
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,000,000
Old 03-31-2011, 12:20 PM   #1308
earthfaries
DIS Veteran
 
earthfaries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WDW is our Backyard ♥
Posts: 3,224

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiewings71 View Post
31 pins is not a bunch..and yes I give every seller 2 tries, especially when I get the mixture of good and bad/questionable pins. This is MY way of doing it, I've always done it that way, after the 2nd try if the pins are still bad I don't buy from them again. I didn't ask for a refund, the price I paid was small enough I won't worry about it, we will trade the good ones and we've already snapped posts off some others or put others on our cork boards to use as push pins, it isn't worth it to ask for a refund. You don't have to like the way I chose to buy from eBay but it works for me and I will continue to do it. I don't accuse every seller with cheap pins of having scrappers until I've made a purchase of my own and can make the determination myself.
I agree And that is another thing that bugs me. Just because a seller sends you 30 pins, and some you think are scrappers, does not mean they only deal in scrappers, or that you should not use them.

Any person trading at WDW or DL will trade for scrappers unknowingly. Anyone trading for their pins and selling them will have a mix of both good and bad. It's what's on the lanyards. There is no way to only go out and trade for the good. It should be expected to get some of both ~ as it's what's on the lanyards at Disney.

It's Disney's responsibility to remove them from their lanyards if they want to ... not the sellers to spend hours doing research to see if ever single pin they are selling could possibly be a scrapper or not ...


__________________

Living Our Dream



Disney World is our Backyard !!!
earthfaries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2011, 01:37 PM   #1309
DisneyRunner2009
DIS Veteran
 
DisneyRunner2009's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not near enough.
Posts: 1,673

I have no experience with evaandmike. But I myself, have wondered if they are any good. Now that I looked at evaandmike's listings, I would be wary. Those lots and the description of them, regarding duplicates, are signs of questionable pins. Some of the pins look legit, but others listed are known to be scrapped.
__________________
Blog: http://www.dashing2disney.blogspot.comTwitter:@dashing2disney
6/83 offsite, 6/05 POP, 6/06 POP, 8/07 POR, 8/08 CSR/POFQ, 3/09 ASMu Princess Half-Marathon,
8/09 ASMu Free DDP, 8/10 POR/ASMu Free DDP, 8/11 POP Free QSDP, 7/12 POR, 9/12 ASMu TOT10Miler, 11/12 POR/ASSp, 8/13 ASSp/POFQ, 9/13 POP, 8/14 CSR, Hoping 2/2015 resort with best AP discount


Last edited by DisneyRunner2009; 03-31-2011 at 01:57 PM.
DisneyRunner2009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 03:01 PM   #1310
pixiewings71
Sweet!!! Totally!!!!!
YAY for good weather!
It's that Disney Magic, I don't know how it works but it does!
 
pixiewings71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Suisun City CA
Posts: 22,233

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthfaries View Post
I agree And that is another thing that bugs me. Just because a seller sends you 30 pins, and some you think are scrappers, does not mean they only deal in scrappers, or that you should not use them.

Any person trading at WDW or DL will trade for scrappers unknowingly. Anyone trading for their pins and selling them will have a mix of both good and bad. It's what's on the lanyards. There is no way to only go out and trade for the good. It should be expected to get some of both ~ as it's what's on the lanyards at Disney.

It's Disney's responsibility to remove them from their lanyards if they want to ... not the sellers to spend hours doing research to see if ever single pin they are selling could possibly be a scrapper or not ...


Right...and I prefer NOT to send them back, if they are truly unscrupulous sellers they will turn around and send them to someone else, someone who has NO clue and will trade them in the parks. I need to get back to DPF....I miss you guys over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisneyRunner2009 View Post
I have no experience with evaandmike. But I myself, have wondered if they are any good. Now that I looked at evaandmike's listings, I would be wary. Those lots and the description of them, regarding duplicates, are signs of questionable pins. Some of the pins look legit, but others listed are known to be scrapped.
This was my impression as well, be wary....but as I haven't purchased from them personally I can't say for sure. I might buy some when I get back but I might not....we really have a ton of pins to trade right now, well over 200, all 100% legit, I'm hoping that's enough for our 2 planned trips.
__________________
Kerri DBF DD18 DD14

We took 14 trips from July 07-July 08 and around 16 from Jan 09-Jan 10. We did 5 trips 2011-2012. 2012-2013 4 trips.


eBay and pins http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2213419
pixiewings71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 03:27 PM   #1311
earthfaries
DIS Veteran
 
earthfaries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WDW is our Backyard ♥
Posts: 3,224

A seller I buy from all the time, funmamas, who is on the red list, is now selling only real pins as traders. I used to buy the lot sets, with a good mix of characters, and sometimes some questionable pins, but now apparently they have gotten rid of those auctions because when I went to purchase more pins for trading this morning all they have is this now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260761756570&ru=http%3 A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trks id%3Dp5197.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D260761756570%26_sac at%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

I think it's great, knowing for the same price ($1.75 a pin) I get real ones now! I don't mind getting the booster packs either, I think it's cool and I can't wait to order

I think it's a super idea, and a super price for real and not scrapper pins for under $2 a piece



I am kinda sad I won't get the usual unique variety anymore, but now I can know I'm getting real pins without a doubt and can trade for the unique pins myself, and not put questionable pins on the market
__________________

Living Our Dream



Disney World is our Backyard !!!
earthfaries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 07:53 PM   #1312
amysuch
Mouseketeer
 
amysuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 75

Has anyone dealt with monro62 on eBay?

I didn't find anything when I searched.
__________________
amysuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2011, 08:12 PM   #1313
DisneyRunner2009
DIS Veteran
 
DisneyRunner2009's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not near enough.
Posts: 1,673

I know some of monro62's listings, are pins from mystery tins or pins on cards.
__________________
Blog: http://www.dashing2disney.blogspot.comTwitter:@dashing2disney
6/83 offsite, 6/05 POP, 6/06 POP, 8/07 POR, 8/08 CSR/POFQ, 3/09 ASMu Princess Half-Marathon,
8/09 ASMu Free DDP, 8/10 POR/ASMu Free DDP, 8/11 POP Free QSDP, 7/12 POR, 9/12 ASMu TOT10Miler, 11/12 POR/ASSp, 8/13 ASSp/POFQ, 9/13 POP, 8/14 CSR, Hoping 2/2015 resort with best AP discount

DisneyRunner2009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2011, 09:57 AM   #1314
amysuch
Mouseketeer
 
amysuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisneyRunner2009 View Post
I know some of monro62's listings, are pins from mystery tins or pins on cards.
I just bid on 5, I'll let you know how they turn out.
__________________
amysuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 07:29 AM   #1315
n2mm
aka WALTSGIRL
 
n2mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: West Virgina
Posts: 17,818

Wow! This thread has opened my eyes. Thanks for having a thread like this. I stepped out of the pin trading world 6 years ago and now have decided to let some of my pins go. I've learned alot from this thread. I'm just a small fry in the selling of pins (I've always been a collector and trader on dizpins), but got some great pointers on how to list them. Though I just listed alot of old lanyard pins that end this weekend. Too bad I didn't see this thread earlier or I would've added offiicial, 100% tradeable to my descriptions. Too many to modify now. I'm not a big pin seller, but a collector passing my collection to people who want them in their collection. Maybe one day I'll make it to your "good" list". I will be going to my ebay account now and blocking the red sellers from my account to keep them from bidding on my auctions. If anyone is interested, I'm JJT219

I use to be addicted to pin collecting and trading, but kicked the habit. While I do regret all of the $$$ I spent on multiples for trading, I don't regret all of the friendships I made along the way. I'm retired now, so have more time to do this now. It will take me years to make a dent in the amount of pins I collected during those years of collecting.

Update: I was checking the bad sellers and have found most no longer sell or even have accounts. I'm not done checking all of the red sellers yet, but am guessing they have moved on and have a new account not listed on the red list.
__________________
2014 TRIPS
Oct. 18-Nov 1 @ BWV
Nov. 9-16 on the Disney Magic 7 night Cruise


Last edited by n2mm; 04-06-2011 at 07:49 AM.
n2mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 06:31 PM   #1316
WhitDisney
Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9

Smile Chiming in finally~

LURKER NO MORE:
I’ve kept up with this bookmarked thread for over a year. I’ve always lurked, but never posted. Although I appear new, many of you will recognize me from Pinpics and pin trading. I finally decided to chime in when I had too many thoughts not to share and when what started as a great thread to protect new traders has seemingly taken a turn.

Education in pin trading is critical and though I know my one post won’t matter much, I’m hoping to help steer this thread back to its original purpose and share a little wisdom gleaned over the years. I have a lot of thoughts, so get comfortable OR skip to the next post. lol

I see, and have purchased from, fantastic sellers: bizzybee1, flame*o*chist and many more. To new traders, there ARE good sellers on eBay, but more about that in a minute.

I see some sellers dumped the junk, and have now apparently gone legit: funmamas anyone? Just steer clear of the Holiday Vinylmation she still has.

I’m also thrilled to see the awful sellers like nannub/Parrotsandpins and mikebitesme thankfully go under when word gets out that they’re just a pipeline for the trash coming from China.

Great job everyone! I believe it’s directly a result of this board. Now that is smart talk! Everyone can see how to be safe and enjoy this wonderful hobby.

I’ve read every post and it is easy to see those who love trading, posting on their personal experiences to protect others. That was the intention of the thread and I applaud the OP.

~ ~ I don’t know you PixieWings, but I like you a lot! ~ ~

THIS THREAD:
Can we get the Disney groove back in this thread? This thread is all about the magic of pin trading while protecting one another, not making assumptions or mud slinging without facts. When we publicly guess about things like that, that is what gets people threatening lawsuits and then we can’t share names anymore. As far as I know this is the only place we can publicly name sellers and I don’t want to see the thread go away.

Of course we’re meant to share opinions, you’re reading mine now. I applaud those giving out legitimate information about pins they bought that are scrappers and how they know for sure. If you’re new to the hobby, read all posts critically though and use careful judgment when reading the posts of people who haven’t actually made the purchase or held the pin.

GOOD SELLERS:
I have been buying and trading pins on/off since 2005. I started back in the glory days of Disney Auctions and I know a lot of the traders and sellers. If it weren’t for bizzybee1, kittkat2bad, themuchnessofdisney, and youngqueen and I’d be all twitchy not being able to get my fix.

GIFT CARDS:
One of my best friends is a corporate buyer for a company and the only real perk of her job is that she is allowed to use the rewards points/gift cards for herself. I’m quite sure that many sellers have day jobs and that they rack up points too. Certain cards have no limits on corporate accounts, so just because someone is using gift cards does not make them shady.

I read about the seller using gift cards and being called in to question because of a perfectly normal practice of redeeming rewards. They’re a great seller and they have the harder to find pins. They ask $$$ for some because they are rare and some are a great deal, but I’m not mentioning the name again so you don’t go picking off all the pins I want. Lol They don’t sell pins in lots and I have purchased great pins from them every time. Sure they won’t share their proprietary secrets, but that does not mean there is something shady. If they shared it would be certain business death. Anyway, I’ve bought from that seller, their pins are amazing and always “perfectly perfect” as they state in their auctions and I found them personable, friendly and their shipping was so fast I think I heard a sonic boom. Lol

BULK:
How does Costco have things so cheap? They buy in bulk. How does the Dollar Store do it? If you have enough credit in the coffers and can buy in bulk, prices are much lower. There’s no mystery in that. It is just a gamble that I, for one, wouldn’t be willing to make but a huge thanks to others for making the leap. I love it when sellers buy boosters en masse and pass the savings on. I appreciate the attempt to squelch the scrapper issue too. I won’t buy pin grab bags/lots, but booster sets that are new in package are great!

EBAY BUSINESSES:
I would strongly disagree that all eBay sellers are just one person sitting alone at one computer. Some are, sure, but those with tons of feedback usually are not. Also, not everyone leaves feedback, so those sellers sold even more than what is showing. I cannot imagine people able to ship out hundreds of auctions every day by themselves, so if they say “we” they probably are more than one person. Someone posted worrying about sellers saying “we,” but I know at least one with a lot of auctions who are a group of traders selling together. This is not them putting on airs, they’re being honest. Some do run it like a business with separate people who do the listing, shipping and answering email. I know there used to be a seller, MarciMouse (I think) who did it that way but I haven’t seen her around lately. So, picturing eBay sellers as a single person at a single computer is not always the way. There are many, many sellers with hundreds of thousand feedback replies. That is a business and some Disney pin sellers are the same, a business. I would not discredit a seller for saying “we.” They could just mean him and his wife or it could mean they have a staff of workers.

Gift cards and buying in bulk are only two ways I mention and my guess is that a seller with more than 1k active listings on eBay gets their pins in many different ways but it does not mean anything shady. They have a pocket full of methods and I don’t blame them for not sharing. That is them being savvy and trying to earn enough for it to be worth their time. It would be nice if everyone was philanthropic, but alas reality is what it is.

CLEARANCE:
I know sellers who are former cast members and have moved north or east – their former co-workers, friends, family still living in Florida or California find the deals and send them to the centralized seller and share in the small profit. If they sell enough the profit goes up. I see nothing wrong with that. We all know there are those amazing clearance sections near the parks, but all of us outside the state can’t comb them weekly. Personally, I like that the clearance sections are not just going to the few who live nearby the parks. Spreading it out makes it closer to fair and keeps the market stable. If only a few people were getting the sale items, we would be paying a lot more.

People who do not live near the parks can have several sources for getting pins and the Post Office is happy to deliver them anywhere. This does NOT make the sellers less reputable, just smart for having a central hub.

There is nothing shady in these examples and no huge conspiracy or fraud, just smart business buying low and selling higher. Most people don’t have the time or patience, but if these sellers do then it helps keep the market from only being a few people near the parks.

SMART TACTICS:
Someone posted, and I agree, if a low priced pin gets you in their store, you’re more likely to buy more – Target does it, why wouldn’t sellers on eBay? Again, there is no mystery to it and no tricks, just simple math and smart business.

If the seller makes a few bucks, I’m perfectly fine with it. They have to eat, they have to make a little something or they will stop and more importantly I need the pins! Lol

Please be careful about dragging names through the mud without facts.

SCRAPPERS:
Let’s remember, pins that have been scrapped are copies of real pins, so there are real versions of that pin out there. Just because a seller has a pin that has been scrapped does not mean it is a scrapper. There are real versions of the pin, otherwise they are listed as bootleg. If all they have are pins that have been scrapped or are bootleg, now that is absolutely a red flag, but there are legitimate versions of the pins still floating around once they’ve been scrapped.

DISNEYSTORE.COM:
I have purchased many pins from DisneyStore.com myself that had I not bought them from the source even *I* would have thought they weren’t legit and would have returned it to the seller. Not every pin is perfect. I got a DSF pin in trade this week and Mickey’s eyes are sunken in. This pin is mint on card and I know the trader very well, she bought it new at DSF. This is just an example of a legit yet not a perfect pin. Immediately deeming a seller as a fraud for having a less than perfect pin isn’t using our best judgment. I would contact the seller and ask for a refund, more about that next.

PAYPAL:
I know I’m getting terribly long winded, I’m almost done. It’s very difficult to get *jacked* on eBay because paypal protects buyers to the n’th degree. EBay owns paypal and without happy buyers, sellers don’t matter and the whole thing goes down the drain! No matter what a seller says about returns, paypal will make them take back a scrapper and you’ll get a refund. If you think you’ve gotten scammed on eBay then call foul and you’ll get your money back. No problem. Relax and enjoy the hobby.

OLIVEJUICE:
Finally, then I’ll finally shut up: does anyone know what happened to Olivejuiceyou21? They were fantastic, but it appears someone, literally, died?!  They’ll be sadly missed.

Last edited by WhitDisney; 04-06-2011 at 06:42 PM.
WhitDisney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 10:22 PM   #1317
amysuch
Mouseketeer
 
amysuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by amysuch View Post
I just bid on 5, I'll let you know how they turn out.
Got all 5 today. They look great!
__________________
amysuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2011, 09:57 AM   #1318
okwit2000
Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2

This discussion is so interesting!
Thanks so much everyone for your input. I've learned a lot. I just bought 20 pins from a seller on ebay yesterday. We'll see how they turn out. I'll report back when I get them.
okwit2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2011, 02:12 PM   #1319
Piglet99645
DIS Veteran
 
Piglet99645's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 705

I received pins from

Koolstuff2005and karak630

I purposefully ordered duplicates in order to compare the quality.

While Koolstuff2005 has a ton of items, karak630 appeared to be selling her personal collection.

That being said, the Japan flag pin from koolstuff2005 was notably heavier than the Norway and Germany flag pins from karak630. I don't know if that means the Norway and Germany ones were scrappers.... or just perhaps seconds or from a different batch.

In contrast, the Warhol-inspired pins were of equal quality from both, and more the lighter quality of the Norway flag.

I'm actually more confused than ever about how to tell an authentic pin from scrappers.

In any event, they all look very nice, and were shipped promptly. There is no chipped paint or anything.

I also received one pin from tomes2treasure who had a Dumbo that I really wanted. No idea about the quality. It is cute and unlikely to get traded, so it doesn't really matter to me.

So I'm not much help, but would appreciate any feedback you might want to offer.
__________________
1977 - Disneyland at 7 years old with my best friend and our parents
1987 - Disneyland again with my best friend (teenagers!) -
1992 - Disneyland AGAIN with the best friend.... young adults now! Hyatt Regency
November 8-11, 2005 - WDW with my husband and 5yo son and SIL - - All Star Music Resort ~ Trip Report
April 12-14, 2006 - DISNEYLAND again with the best friend - now 30-something moms
August 2006 - Hong Kong Disneyland
June 2011- Disneyland WITH HUBBY AND TWO KIDS (10 & 5), SIL and 2yo nephew - BWPPI ~ Trip Report.
October 21-26, 2012, WDW - All Star Movies, Food and Wine, and MNSSHP

Feb. 12-16, 2014. Disneyland (Desert Inn and Suites) Just me and the kids!! (now 13 and 8)
Piglet99645 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2011, 04:18 PM   #1320
DisneyRunner2009
DIS Veteran
 
DisneyRunner2009's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not near enough.
Posts: 1,673

Koolstuff and thewill sell authentic pins as well as pins that are known to be scrapped. I've had experience with both sellers.
__________________
Blog: http://www.dashing2disney.blogspot.comTwitter:@dashing2disney
6/83 offsite, 6/05 POP, 6/06 POP, 8/07 POR, 8/08 CSR/POFQ, 3/09 ASMu Princess Half-Marathon,
8/09 ASMu Free DDP, 8/10 POR/ASMu Free DDP, 8/11 POP Free QSDP, 7/12 POR, 9/12 ASMu TOT10Miler, 11/12 POR/ASSp, 8/13 ASSp/POFQ, 9/13 POP, 8/14 CSR, Hoping 2/2015 resort with best AP discount

DisneyRunner2009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trading Pins from Ebay DaveStroem Disney Collectors Board 478 02-05-2013 12:40 PM
Pin Display Eeyore's Buddy Disney Collectors Board 12 06-25-2010 12:59 PM
Pin collecting? mickey&minnie04 Disney Collectors Board 13 04-20-2010 12:14 AM
Free Dining Pin for December! ashleyd725@hotmail.c Budget Board 24 06-28-2009 08:20 AM
Got our 1st PIN code!!!! disneyfreak7 Disney Discount Codes and Rates 1 06-25-2009 04:38 PM

facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS Updates
GET OUR DIS UPDATES DELIVERED BY EMAIL



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Copyright © 1997-2014, Werner Technologies, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

You Rated this Thread: