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Old 02-25-2009, 01:17 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveStroem View Post
Good news. The seller just refunded my money and requested that I not file an Ebay dispute. At this point, I don't even think I can as I now have no loss other then time and anguish.
I would still at least send Ebay an email. If they are state in the listing that the pins are authentic and they are not, then something needs to be done. They just gave you your money back so that you would keep your mouth shut and they can continue to fool less knowledgable people.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:58 AM   #62
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Since I have had such a bad experience with this seller, I have messaged several other pin sellers.

I sent this mention to bibbidi_bobbidi_boo_colectibles
"Where did you get the pins from. Are these scrappers or pins purchased from Disney. I am looking for trading stock, but will not tolerate counterfeit contraband. I am sorry if this sounds negative, I just got burned by another dealer selling fakes. "
I got a response from them first of:

"First of all what is a scrapper?"



I then responded with:
A scrapper is the pins that are sold to dealers from china that are not actually purchased from Disney. Many of these pins are overruns or 2nds. Dealers that sell these pins are committing criminal acts.

Where your pins purchased from Disney?
I then noticed that they use the term "scrapper" in some of their other listings. So this seams to be a baiting type question.
You are asking me what is a scrapper. In a different listing, you mention that it does not include and scrappers. So if you put that in some of your auctions, why would you ask me this. I am a serious bidder looking to get about 50 pins. I want real pins, not counterfeits or scrappers/2nds.
This morning I got a response from bibbidi_bobbidi_boo_colectibles:
please don not waste my time.
So I guess you can use your own judgment as to whether or not this person is selling bogus pins or not.
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:03 AM   #63
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I also got this more respectful response from gordo1111.
Thanks for the question and the interest in our auction.
Our pins come from a couple sources. We buy large collections of pins and/or we purchase pins from garage sales and similar places. We then trade some of these pins at Disneyworld for more desirable or popular pins. That being said, nobody selling pins on EBAY or anywhere else can guarrantee where their pins were originally purchased. Its impossible to know.

All Disney pins are made in China by one of a number of companies that Disney contracts with.

The only way you can be sure that a pin was originally purchased at Disneyworld is to buy the pin directly from Disney yourself. But I suspect the reason you are looking on EBAY is because the Disney cost is upwards of $7 per pin.

Any pin on EBAY may also have slight wear from being traded.
If your intent is to seriously collect Disney pins then I suggest you only buy your pins directly from Disney for reasons above.
I hope I have answered your question. Thanks again for asking.
I just may order from this guy
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:08 AM   #64
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I feel like I am turning into the Pin Police.

Detective Dave at your service
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:35 AM   #65
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THANK YOU for taking this seriously!
We buy our traders from Disney Shopping and the Disney Store because we have been burned on eBay.
It INFURIATES me that people are fine with trading counterfeits/scrappers or whatever else because authentic pins are expensive.
If you can't afford authentic pins then DON'T TRADE. Pretty simple.

For all of you buying cheap counterfeit crap and trading it, I hope every pin you take back home is fake, too.
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:58 AM   #66
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We buy large collections of pins and/or we purchase pins from garage sales and similar places. We then trade some of these pins at Disneyworld for more desirable or popular pins.
I appreciate all of the info you've shared here! I want to point out that in reading between the lines from this seller, I see "We buy large collections of pins that are probably scrappers and then trade those ourselves at WDW and then sell the pins we traded for." So, I see this as one step removed from trading scrappers. What do you think?

For those who are adamantly against having any scrappers in circulation with CM's, where do you draw the line? Would you buy from a seller who purchased scrappers and then "laundered" them at WDW by trading with CM's for "authentic" pins? "Money-laundering"... "Pin-laundering"... LOL!
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:41 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveStroem View Post
I feel like I am turning into the Pin Police.

Detective Dave at your service
Dave, THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking the time to do all this! I feel SO WONDERFUL that people out there take this as seriously as I do, and I now feel empowered to keep doing what I've been doing and make it right!

Now you are getting the feel for how big this problem is and how it TRULY takes away the magic of pin trading. I for one feel more informed when I pin trade and don't let it steal the magic for me. I just remember "back in the day" when you didn't have to look and wonder. When you saw a pin you liked, you traded it and walked away with a big smile on your face; those days are the ones I'm working toward returning.

Mareed, I hope that after reading some of these posts and the passion and the message that you realize that trading counterfeit pins, no matter the person or situation, really damages the whole pin trading community. You said you wanted to be educated, and I genuinely hope you do. By reading the posts I hope you can see that this is and can turn into an even bigger problem for all of us. If we all do our part, which is buying authentic pins and let "our conscience be our guide" (thanks Jiminy) we can pressure the powers that be and the counterfeiters into stopping this damaging behavior.

Your questions of "pin laundering" @ WDW is even more troubling. So by the seller's own admission, he is taking counterfeit pins, trading them for authentic pins @ Disney and then selling the authentic pins on ebay. #1, you know that he's pulling your leg right? Why would he need to "launder" the pins when he has scrapper's he's selling. #2, if what he said is actually correct, then he is taking quality pins (that someone traded or Disney provided) and replacing them with scrappers for everyone else who trades @ Disney. Both of those scenarios are appalling. Someone (be it Disney or another trader) traded a quality Disney pin that a seller is taking, replacing with a counterfeit, then on top of that making money on ebay. I don't know how else to qualify a response like that except to say this person couldn't care less about pin trading and will do whatever they can to make money at everyone else's expense. Bottom line, Disney pin trading was created for trading Disney pins. Not for "upgrading" your cheap pin and infiltrating them into circulation for all Disney guests. I've said it before as have others, pin trading is NOT cheap. It takes money. And if you're looking for ways around spending the money Disney charges for their pins (by buying counterfeits) it is ruining it for everyone.

I cannot influence your decision or your judgment of buying pins from sources other than Disney, but I hope you can realize that you are likely adding to the problem by buying and trading pins off ebay, rather than helping add to the solution.

Dave, thanks again for doing what you've done, you have once again ignited the fire in my belly that most people have good intentions and working together we can make a difference!!!
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:53 AM   #68
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Lionqueen, I don't know that any of that is true. This seller also sells individual pins. So there is the possibility that he buys collections (you are assuming fakes, but that is yet to be determined), then trades part of those for legitimate, higher value pins that he then sells individually. If doing this, his statement would be true.

I have traded several responses back and forth with this seller. I get the feeling that he might be trying to do thing properly. I may just still be a bit naive though.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:55 AM   #69
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Quote:
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I appreciate all of the info you've shared here! I want to point out that in reading between the lines from this seller, I see "We buy large collections of pins that are probably scrappers and then trade those ourselves at WDW and then sell the pins we traded for."

------

For those who are adamantly against having any scrappers in circulation with CM's, where do you draw the line? Would you buy from a seller who purchased scrappers and then "laundered" them at WDW by trading with CM's for "authentic" pins? "Money-laundering"... "Pin-laundering"... LOL!
I agree with mareed, I would still not believe that "gordo1111" could be trusted. Him being so knowledgable about scrapper pins and saying you could only buy from Disney to guarantee authentic pins is just a trick to make you think he's selling authentic pins. In my mind, a large lot of pins at such a low price (less than $3/pin) should be a red flag that they are scrappers!

If you do knowingly buy scrappers off ebay and "launder" then in the parks for "real pins", how do you know you're not going home with a laynyard of mostly scrappers? I had to be really careful on my last trip when trading pins. I saw SO many scrappers. I would realize I traded for a scrapper and then try to trade it back with another CM for a non-scrapper so i wasn't stuck with it(sounds bad, but I bought pins from Disney to trade with). Half way through my trip I left my pins back in the room and stopped trading... I was getting so frustrated and it wasn't fun anymore. When I got home and looked at my pins, I realized I still managed to come home with a few scrappers and I was so angry!
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:10 PM   #70
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Quote:
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Lionqueen, I don't know that any of that is true. This seller also sells individual pins. So there is the possibility that he buys collections (you are assuming fakes, but that is yet to be determined), then trades part of those for legitimate, higher value pins that he then sells individually. If doing this, his statement would be true.

I have traded several responses back and forth with this seller. I get the feeling that he might be trying to do thing properly. I may just still be a bit naive though.
Hi Dave,
I was actually talking about the seller mareed is dealing with..lol! I agree with you on the seller you're dealing with. It does sound like he is doing it correctly. And buying individual pins (especially if they're not cast lanyards, I can give you a list of the ones that are most rampant if you'd like) is a WAY better bet than buying lots. I have bought individual pins from sellers on ebay that were authentic, but they were listed individually and I still paid around $4 for them.
I want to stress that there are honest pin sellers on ebay. In general they are selling individual pins that are not cast lanyards (don't know why so many fakes are cast lanyards, but the vast majority are). I think the emails back and forth with this seller seem genuine, and if you buy individual pins from them I would think they would be authentic. You have to go with your gut on this one; there are still more decent people out there than thiefs in my opinion. Good luck and let us know how it goes. I'm going to look at his auctions and check back.

I just checked his listings, here is my take. The title lists "mostly cast lanyards & LE's" which is a huge red flag. Nearly all the scrappers I've seen are cast lanyards. I looked at the picture of his pins, it is the same picture in all of his listings; another red flag. There are many more "non-scrappers" pictured then there are scrappers. That said, many of the ones that aren't scrappers (pictured) are not cast lanyards. On top of all these triggers, who has this many pins for so cheap? My opinion is that Gordo's listing for pin "lots" are fakes whether intentionally or not. That said, NONE of his individual pin listings are scrappers. Just my .02.

Thanks again!
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:26 PM   #71
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Hi Dave,
I was actually talking about the seller mareed is dealing with..lol!
Just to clarify, I was talking about the seller that Dave referenced. I've never purchased pins on Ebay myself.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:21 PM   #72
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I agree that the bulk of scrappers and counterfeits are cast lanyard/Hidden Mickey pins.

Look at a seller's completed auctions. Are they selling the same set of 10 pins over and over again? Where do you think they got those pins? Who randomly has 500 sets of the same 10 pins? Hmm. I know! People who are buying counterfeits in large lots direct from China, bundling them into sets of 10, and selling them on eBay!

Those grab bags are another way to end up with scrappers.

If you scroll down the auctions you will see the exact same pin lots listed by different sellers. Hello? Same seller, multiple eBay IDs.

No, not every pin on eBay is a scrapper or a counterfeit. But nobody sells pins for $1.50 each if they paid $7 each for them. These sellers are in it to make a profit. If they are selling pins that cheap and still making money then something is very wrong with that picture.
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Old 02-25-2009, 02:44 PM   #73
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I agree that the bulk of scrappers and counterfeits are cast lanyard/Hidden Mickey pins.

Look at a seller's completed auctions. Are they selling the same set of 10 pins over and over again? Where do you think they got those pins? Who randomly has 500 sets of the same 10 pins? Hmm. I know! People who are buying counterfeits in large lots direct from China, bundling them into sets of 10, and selling them on eBay!
Those grab bags are another way to end up with scrappers.

If you scroll down the auctions you will see the exact same pin lots listed by different sellers. Hello? Same seller, multiple eBay IDs.

No, not every pin on eBay is a scrapper or a counterfeit. But nobody sells pins for $1.50 each if they paid $7 each for them. These sellers are in it to make a profit. If they are selling pins that cheap and still making money then something is very wrong with that picture.
OK, a little devil's advocate time here. I don't know if any of you know how posting on Ebay works, but since I've helped my mom with her store some I will explain my reasoning a little.

I agree with this to a point. If they are selling the same 10 pins, they say specifically in the description that you will recieve all the pins that are in the picture, and they have a large number of that same auction up with the same pins up then yes that is a huge red flag. However there are many sellers on Ebay that will take one picture and use it over and over when they are selling things in bulk. Then they will add in the description that the ones in the picture are "just a sample" and that you will "recieve ones of equal quality". It is very important when bidding on anything on Ebay to not only look at the picture but read the entire description. They have an option when posting things to sell on Ebay where you can "sell a similar item". Ok lets say sellerx has a lot of 500 pins they want to sell in lots of 10. In order to post all 500 pins they have to 1.take a pic of each lot making note of what pins went in that lot to not mix them up 2.download all 50 pics to their computer 3.make an auction with and downloading that specific pic 4.write a detailed description that matches the pic...or they can just take one pic, write one description and sell a similar item until they have all 500 up (which would be 50 auctions). Trust me, from someone who has done it, it takes a lot less time to do it the 2nd way than the 1st way.

Also the price shouldn't be the only red flag here. You shouldn't just see a large lot of pins for less than $2.00 and think just b/c of the starting bid price that they all have to be scrappers. When you post something on Ebay the lower your starting bid price the lower the listing amount. Some Ebay sellers will start their auctions off at a lower bid, so the list price is lower to save them money knowing that they might take a loss if the bid doesn't get up. There have been some months that my mom paid Ebay almost $1,000 in listing fees. She tried an experiment of starting some of her auctions out at a lower starting bid, so her listing fee was less, and they ended up selling for what she wanted for the item anyway. It just made good business sense for her to save herself money by starting out the bid less. Some of the sellers of those pin lots, may be doing the same thing. They may be starting the price at a lower starting bid to save themselves some money on the listing fee. They are hoping that Disney pin collectors will likely get in a "bidding war" over them and the price will get up to (or higher than) what they wanted for them in the first place.

I know for me I am too afraid of getting scrappers to buy them on Ebay, so I just buy them at WDW one at a time as I can afford them. I have bought a Coach bag on Ebay, but the seller even had a picture of proof of sale and it came just like it would have from the Coach on line store. I know it may sound strange that I am willing to buy a Coach bag on Ebay, but not a Disney pin. I just don't want to take the chance on getting a scrapper and then trading it to someone who paid a lot for that pin. If the Coach bag was fake it just hurt me, trading a scrapper hurts a lot more people.
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Old 02-25-2009, 03:34 PM   #74
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I too had a business on ebay many moons ago (love Longaberger baskets..anyway I digress). I agree with Wookie and agree with all her points. The difference with these listings and others with starting bids, is that a lot of these listings are selling the pins for $1.89 (sometimes less) with no bidding! Also, many of the listings have set prices with no bidding. Even the ones with low starting bids (doing this with the same premise as wookie's mom) are still likely fakes. Why would they care starting bidding out at .01, when they are likely to get the $2 they are looking for.

In short, every seller is different, and you do need to read the description. But the red flags to look for are multiple listings of lots of pins for under $2. Of course there may be exceptions, but if you're buying 100 pins for around $100, you can bet they are fake. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but hey, it's what I do
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Old 02-25-2009, 03:42 PM   #75
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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Green"]
Also the price shouldn't be the only red flag here. You shouldn't just see a large lot of pins for less than $2.00 and think just b/c of the starting bid price that they all have to be scrappers. When you post something on Ebay the lower your starting bid price the lower the listing amount. Some Ebay sellers will start their auctions off at a lower bid, so the list price is lower to save them money knowing that they might take a loss if the bid doesn't get up.
I understand how ebay works... how if you start an auction off low, it will get bid up higher. but many/most of the 50-200 pin lots are "buy it now".. and those lots are likely scrapper pins. I bought a 50 pin lot (last fall) and it was ALL scrapper pins except one! I emailed the seller and he told me to send them back and I'd get a refund. He asked me to leave him positive feedback or none at all. Now I'm thinking I should report him to Disney! Here's his explanation:

"I am sorry you are unhappy with your lot of pins, please accept my apologies. I have noticed that the pin quality that I have been trading for have been getting poorer, and I have been finding more and more scrapper pins. I try and catch them before I sell, but I was on vacation and wasn't as vigalant as I normally am. I will be happy to refund your money upon return of the pins."

Sure sure...
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