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Old 02-24-2009, 08:44 AM   #31
mountdew1
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The problem with pins is that for the most part, there is nothing to determine what one pin costs more than another other than scarcity. Yes, some that have moving parts, gems, whatever, are a little more, but what separates a 8.95 Stitch pin from a 14.95 Stitch pin other than the text on the back that says LE of 1250? Not much. So there is alot of motivation for people to create the knock offs. When people can prove to ebay that something is a fake, they will take it down. But when many people can't tell the difference between them, it's hard for Disney to make a case. The odds of finding a legit rare pin on a lanyard now are slim. The market has been flooded with pins. 5 or 6 years ago I got some great LE's off of lanyards right after the CM walked on stage, but the variety of pins was greater. Now many lanyards have the same pins on them. As long as you are looking to trade for a pin that you like, shouldn't matter to you if it was sold by Disney, or fell off the truck. If you are looking to profit on them, well, thats tough.
Not all bulk sellers sell lost of scrappers. Many sellers do buy large collections from collectors who are getting out of it, and just want to make a few bucks back. Outside of the small trading market, not much value for pins. So if Joe Schmo lives in NY, not a big community he can sell the pins to unless he goes online. So he sells em to a power ebay seller, who cannibalizes the good pins, and then dumps the rest for cheap.
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:53 AM   #32
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I can't understand how Ebay and Disney let this go on. There are tons and tons of these pin lots all over the Internet. Selling these counterfeit pins is a crime. Once they mail them using USPS like mine came, I believe it elevates to a federal crime.

This whole pin trading mess has given me a massive headache and is about as far away from Magical as you can get.

My other concern, is if I return these pins and purchase pins in the park for the kids to trade, what will keep them from getting junk pins from a CM's lanyard.

Disney needs to figure out a better way to control this. Also, why doesn't Disney put the pins # on the back of them?
I'm sure this post will incur the wrath of the pin gods, and start a giant flame war, but here it goes: Disney is indeed the ONLY entity that can stop the counterfeit pin selling, yet they aren't stopping it. They choose to manufacture their pins in China, knowing full well that the factories are making lots of extras, and selling them illegally, and they do nothing about it. The fakes can often be nearly impossible to identify, indeed many of them are identical to the real thing, manufactured to the same specifications in the same factory.

There is NO way for the average person to tell with 100% certainty that a pin is legitimate, unless it comes with the backing and receipt, and I bet it won't be long before someone will be marketing fake pins with those included as well.

As many very experienced pin traders have said here on the forums many different times, even the CM's often have fakes on their lanyards, so even if you are buying legitimate pins for your kids to trade, there is no way to be certain that they won't wind up with scrappers when they trade with CM's.

Those who are really serious about pin trading can request backing, and receipts for pins they trade, and as for everyone else who is letting their kids trade with the CM's, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Odds are half of the pins that they get FROM the CM's are going to be scrappers, so trade what you got, and don't sweat it too much. If it doesn't bother Disney enough for them to do something about it, then you shouldn't let it bother you that much either.
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:33 AM   #33
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I did hear back from her. She claims to be a "fellow pin trader" that gets her pins from Disneyland and other pin traders. She apologized for the one pin that I was able to identify as being a scrapper but insisted that I return the pins if I want a refund. (so she can sell them to the next dupe).

I have gone over many of the others and have notice upon close inspection things like a small dimple in the enamel or missing enamel in a small section.

I can't understand how Ebay and Disney let this go on. There are tons and tons of these pin lots all over the Internet. Selling these counterfeit pins is a crime. Once they mail them using USPS like mine came, I believe it elevates to a federal crime.

This whole pin trading mess has given me a massive headache and is about as far away from Magical as you can get.
I TOTALLY agree that hunting down fakes and hemming and hawing if they are real or not is as far from magical as it gets.

That said, that is why it is even more important to do our part. Send the pins back, get a refund and contact Disney legal. Believe me, I have had long conversations with Disney legal and (as slow as it goes) they ARE working on this huge problem.

If we can educate and have people do what we are doing, we can at least let these sellers know that WE know what they're up to. We can make it a little more difficult to sell the pins (by leaving negative feedback, getting refunds, etc.) I'm hoping that just a PHONE CALL to some of these sellers from Disney Legal dept. will let them know they are being watched.

I can tell you that the seller I reported is NO LONGER selling pins, so that is one victory. It will take time and effort, but I for one LOVE pin trading and want its legacy to continue for my kids and theirs, that's why I'm doing my part.

I'm glad that there are some people learning more about this and taking action to preserve their pin trading experience and also being more aware of the problem. That being said, don't give up on pin trading, it's a blast, just be aware and informed!!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:29 AM   #34
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:34 AM   #35
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Those who are really serious about pin trading can request backing, and receipts for pins they trade, and as for everyone else who is letting their kids trade with the CM's, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Odds are half of the pins that they get FROM the CM's are going to be scrappers, so trade what you got, and don't sweat it too much. If it doesn't bother Disney enough for them to do something about it, then you shouldn't let it bother you that much either.
I'm in the category of people with kids trading with the CM's and agree with the post quoted here... I've also purchased some pins online and some of them may be scrappers. I don't know and don't really care. My kids enjoy pin-trading with CM's and there's no way we'd be doing it at Disney's insane prices. We may be trading with and for scrappers, but that's fine with me!

I don't expect to trade with the "serious" traders who are set up at the key pin-trading spots with their huge books and I'm sure they wouldn't be interested in anything we have to trade anyway! IMO that's a completely different category of pin-trading and is not what we want at all.

We don't see pins as any kind of investment at all - it's just a fun activity to do while at Disney and a fun way to remember the trips later (looking at the pins). This is manageable at under $2 per pin, but not at Disney's prices!
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:18 AM   #36
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I am a recreational pin trader, and I really love the hobby so I am also really concerned about buying fakes off ebay. When I was first starting I'm sure that I purchased scrappers and traded them in the parks, because I didn't even realize that there was such a thing as a fake pin. Now I've gotten a little more savvy, but I'm sure I still come home from the parks with a large portion of scrappers. I don't think there is really any way to avoid it if you are going to lanyard trade with CMs. I've even pointed out some fakes that Cms have had on thier lanyard, and most of them didn't seem too concerned.

I have found that a large majority of fakes are the hidden mickey cast lanyard pins, so I've pretty much stopped trading for them. I also will not buy cast lanyard pins off ebay. I try to buy most of my pins from the Disney outlet, which has decent prices and that way at least I know that I'm not putting junk on lanyards (even if I sometimes recieve junk in return). If I do buy off ebay, I will buy from people that don't list large numbers of pins, and pin lots that don't contain a majority of cast lanyard pins. I figure if you buy from someone who doesn't have a large quantity or doesn't usually sell pins that they are probably not big time dealers in conterfits. I don't know if this is the best option, but it helps me sleep better at night.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:28 PM   #37
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I'm in the category of people with kids trading with the CM's and agree with the post quoted here... I've also purchased some pins online and some of them may be scrappers. I don't know and don't really care. My kids enjoy pin-trading with CM's and there's no way we'd be doing it at Disney's insane prices. We may be trading with and for scrappers, but that's fine with me!

I don't expect to trade with the "serious" traders who are set up at the key pin-trading spots with their huge books and I'm sure they wouldn't be interested in anything we have to trade anyway! IMO that's a completely different category of pin-trading and is not what we want at all.

We don't see pins as any kind of investment at all - it's just a fun activity to do while at Disney and a fun way to remember the trips later (looking at the pins). This is manageable at under $2 per pin, but not at Disney's prices!
I think there is a misconception here. Because your children enjoy trading (and I totally get the "I just want to trade" children's philosphy) they are in a different category than "serious" traders? It seems to me you're seemingly justifying buying and trading fake pins because you're not trading with "serious" traders.
The whole idea for pin trading is that it's for everyone. I agree that Disney's prices are high for pins, as they are for everything they sell. My opinion is that if you cannot afford to buy the pins, that Disney created pin trading for, then you should not be trading. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's true.

By that analogy I should not be working because making counterfeit money is so much easier and, since not too many people can tell, it's ok (yes I understand the legal ramifications of counterfeit currency, just a dramatic comparison )

I totally understand that the majority of people who buy pins off ebay don't know they're fake. But if you're buying pins for $2 or less a piece in huge lots, bottom line, they're fake, no matter how much they look authentic.

I agree with the PP re: cast lanyard pins as well. The majority of them are fake. Sadly, we have opted to stay away from them as much as we can..it is SO tempting too..UGH!

Sorry to be so direct, but it just really aggravates me when people intentionally do something they know is wrong...rant over...
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:48 PM   #38
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I just bought some pins from ebay (tradepinsforyou) last week, I am waiting for them to arrived (theyre supposed to arrived this week).That was my first time buying on ebay my firsts Disney pins since I have always wanted to began in pin trading and nevr took the chance .This year after a lot of thinking and trips I ask my DH that I want a lanyard ,pins and this is my birthday gift my innitiation in pin trading for our upcoming trip this summer .I was so excited and I think Im still am but this thing with fake pins is driving me crazy
I just want to have fun and collect pins that I find pretty just for me !!!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:59 PM   #39
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By that analogy I should not be working because making counterfeit money is so much easier and, since not too many people can tell, it's ok (yes I understand the legal ramifications of counterfeit currency, just a dramatic comparison )
I wonder, if the government weren't doing anything to stop counterfeiting (and we all know that they are), and counterfeit money was being handed out everywhere, including at the bank when you cash your paycheck, and no one, including the tellers at the bank could tell the difference between the real money, and the fake money, and you earned some money in good faith, then began to question it's authenticity after receiving it, would you go to great lengths to determine if it was real or not, or would you simply use it, and figure if someone refused to accept it, then you would deal with it?

I'm a pretty honest person, or at least I like to think that I am. I have to tell you though, if there were no real penalty for having counterfeit money, and it were handled the way that trading pins are, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Now then, would I purposely buy pins that I KNEW were fake, no, that wouldn't be right. However, if the pins are purchased in good faith, and I later begin to question whether they are real or not, unless I know for certain 100% that they aren't good (and I have a couple that fit into that category), then I don't worry myself about it. If my kids should try to trade a pin with a CM, and be told that the pin is not authentic, then I will put that pin away, they can keep it and enjoy it for themselves (hasn't happened yet), but as long as the CM's accept them, then I will assume that they are good. If the CM's don't know the difference, well then I guess Disney isn't putting too much effort into training them. In the end, I stand by what I said before, it is up to Disney to control this, and if, with all their resources, they can't do anything about it, then I don't feel that it is my responsibility to spend hours trying to authenticate every pin that my kids get.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:07 PM   #40
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I just bought some pins from ebay (tradepinsforyou) last week, I am waiting for them to arrived (theyre supposed to arrived this week).That was my first time buying on ebay my firsts Disney pins since I have always wanted to began in pin trading and nevr took the chance .This year after a lot of thinking and trips I ask my DH that I want a lanyard ,pins and this is my birthday gift my innitiation in pin trading for our upcoming trip this summer .I was so excited and I think Im still am but this thing with fake pins is driving me crazy
I just want to have fun and collect pins that I find pretty just for me !!!!
This is the ebay seller that I am having the problem with. I asked him to provide documentation for authenticity and he just keeps responding back telling me that I need to provide documentation they they are fake. I'm not going to let my kids trade these and am just going to chalk it up to $40 lesson learned. I'll know better next time!
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:12 PM   #41
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To clarify the history of this pin it was a purchase with purchase pin. It was "officially" only available to those who participated in the Pirates of Castaway Cay event onboard the Disney Wonder ship in November of 2007. To be able to purchase this pin legitimately one had to be on the cruise, participating in the event and have spent $450 or more on event merchandise to be eligible to purchase this pin. If there are large numbers of these pins now circulating draw your own conclusion. I do own the "official" version of the pin since I was a particpant in the event. It really bothers me that people continue to make money off of those who are new to pin trading who think they are getting a great deal when purchasing off e-bay. I have a large number of scrappers in my collection that I have gotten trading off cast members and even off of boards at Official Disney Pin Trading Events. These scrappers & the scum that sell them have ruined a once enjoyable hobby. The Stitch pin in question did not come with any type of backer card. They were given to us in little plastic bags that were either sealed or stapled shut. Unfortunately this is how the majority of scrappers are sold. Many believe them to be legitimate because they receive them in these "sealed" packages. I had someone try to get me to trade for some "Official Cast Lanyard" pins that they had just purchased still in their nicely sealed bags. I politely said "no thank you" and walked away.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:21 PM   #42
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Everyone has rules they have to live by, and as long as you're happy with the decisions you make then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. I'm simply stating my opinion and agree with some points you brought up. But I don't rely on someone else changing the wrongs in the world, I do my part. I'm not going to sit back and say "well it's up to you to prove what I'm doing is wrong". I know what I do, and take responsibility for it, and don't make excuses for it either.

Sure the canvas bags I take to the store are a "drop in the bucket" in the effort to save the planet, but I'm doing my part. If everyone made an effort to do the same, well, the answer is clear.

I personally live my live as an example to my children and I've seen their honesty and respect shine through in many different ways and at unexpected times.

And I also stand by my comments; if you can't afford to pin trade as it was intended (buying and trading authentic Disney pins), then you should find another activity that works better within your budget.

Pin trading doesn't weigh up there with global warming or recycling, but in general it boils down to what works for you. Personally, damaging the integrity of a hobby that I love is something I'm not willing to turn a blind eye to, but that's just me.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:34 PM   #43
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I think there is a misconception here. Because your children enjoy trading (and I totally get the "I just want to trade" children's philosphy) they are in a different category than "serious" traders? It seems to me you're seemingly justifying buying and trading fake pins because you're not trading with "serious" traders.
The whole idea for pin trading is that it's for everyone. I agree that Disney's prices are high for pins, as they are for everything they sell. My opinion is that if you cannot afford to buy the pins, that Disney created pin trading for, then you should not be trading. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's true.

By that analogy I should not be working because making counterfeit money is so much easier and, since not too many people can tell, it's ok (yes I understand the legal ramifications of counterfeit currency, just a dramatic comparison )

I totally understand that the majority of people who buy pins off ebay don't know they're fake. But if you're buying pins for $2 or less a piece in huge lots, bottom line, they're fake, no matter how much they look authentic.

I agree with the PP re: cast lanyard pins as well. The majority of them are fake. Sadly, we have opted to stay away from them as much as we can..it is SO tempting too..UGH!

Sorry to be so direct, but it just really aggravates me when people intentionally do something they know is wrong...rant over...
Well... Difference of opinion here obviously, because I'm not doing something I knowis wrong. I certainly like to think I know right from wrong, and I can sleep at night just fine with my decisions and I imagine you can with yours also! You may think I'm wrong, but as has been pointed out, obviously Disney doesn't think so or they'd stop CM's from trading for "scrappers".

I'm able to let my kids freely trade for whatever they want without having to tell them "no, that cast lanyard pin is a scrapper and you can't trade for it". That sounds rather sad to me. I prefer to let my kids trade for what they want.

We've been pin-trading since 2001. I started that trip by purchasing pins from the Disney store for 68 cents! I think I bought 100 of those Winnie the Pooh birthstone pins and wish that I'd bought 1000 of them! Since then, I've purchased pins to trade at various times from specials on the Disney Store and various internet sellers - generally paying around $2 or less. And I've had no trouble trading any of those pins at DL or WDW. It's only fairly recently that I've even heard the term "scrapper". I've looked at the pins we have to trade, and I don't see anything different about them from the pins that we trade for on CM lanyards.

I do really believe that there are different categories of pin-traders. My term of "serious" may not have been the best, but have you seen some of the people at the Downtown Disny pin-trading shop or outside the Epcot station near the fountain? This is what I was calling "serious" and I don't think that my kids' pin trading with CM's that may (or may not) end up trading scrappers has any effect on that other type of trader - whatever they may be called.

To the OP and others who are concerned about "scrapper" pins. Do what your conscience guides you to do. If you can't sleep at night for worrying that the pins you purchased from Ebay may be scrappers, then by all means throw them in the trash and get them out of circulation! If your question is "Will I be able to trade these with CM's at WDW?"... I can tell you the answer is "yes".
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:45 PM   #44
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I worry that some CM will tell them that their pins are fake and not trade with them causing a scene and for my girls to become upset.

TIA Dave
OK - getting back to the OP's concern... No need to worry - the CM's will accept your pins for trade just fine and will not cause any sort of a scene and make your girls upset.

Enjoy your trip!
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:33 PM   #45
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Well... Difference of opinion here obviously, because I'm not doing something I knowis wrong. I certainly like to think I know right from wrong, and I can sleep at night just fine with my decisions and I imagine you can with yours also! You may think I'm wrong, but as has been pointed out, obviously Disney doesn't think so or they'd stop CM's from trading for "scrappers".

I'm able to let my kids freely trade for whatever they want without having to tell them "no, that cast lanyard pin is a scrapper and you can't trade for it". That sounds rather sad to me. I prefer to let my kids trade for what they want.

We've been pin-trading since 2001. I started that trip by purchasing pins from the Disney store for 68 cents! I think I bought 100 of those Winnie the Pooh birthstone pins and wish that I'd bought 1000 of them! Since then, I've purchased pins to trade at various times from specials on the Disney Store and various internet sellers - generally paying around $2 or less. And I've had no trouble trading any of those pins at DL or WDW. It's only fairly recently that I've even heard the term "scrapper". I've looked at the pins we have to trade, and I don't see anything different about them from the pins that we trade for on CM lanyards.

I do really believe that there are different categories of pin-traders. My term of "serious" may not have been the best, but have you seen some of the people at the Downtown Disny pin-trading shop or outside the Epcot station near the fountain? This is what I was calling "serious" and I don't think that my kids' pin trading with CM's that may (or may not) end up trading scrappers has any effect on that other type of trader - whatever they may be called.

To the OP and others who are concerned about "scrapper" pins. Do what your conscience guides you to do. If you can't sleep at night for worrying that the pins you purchased from Ebay may be scrappers, then by all means throw them in the trash and get them out of circulation! If your question is "Will I be able to trade these with CM's at WDW?"... I can tell you the answer is "yes".
There is no question that the pins can be traded at WDW, they can. It's been posted here several times that the fakes are hard to spot even for CM's, so I hope that clears up the question of "can they be traded"..YES they can. The issue is SHOULD they be traded, my OPINION is a definite NO.

The affect of your children trading with a "serious" trader or a CM is not the issue. I let my kids trade for whatever they want. And my sons usually pick ones that are the least desirable..so be it, they are desireable to them. The issue here is the damage to pin trading in general. It doesn't matter who you trade with, fake pins infiltrate the entire pin trading community in the worst possible way.

I have no problems with kids trading pins for what they want, but shouldn't they be actual pins? Actual Disney pins that is why pin trading was created for? the answer is yes. I have also bought pins at the Disney Store (those are ligitimate Disney manufactured pins and are tradeable at the parks) and on sale, but ALL of them are authentic pins. I always try to find a deal (Disney Store sales, past season markdowns, etc) to help my pin trading budget, but the bottom line is, they are all Disney pins! I know this because I buy them from Disney; easiest way to determine if they're real Disney pins as far as I can tell is to buy them from Disney.

Of COURSE Disney is going to trade "scrappers" with kids. Can you imagine what an absolute nightmare it would be if a child was denied a trade and a CM told them their pin was fake? They won't risk making pin trading less-than-magical for kids, who likely don't know any different. It's us as adults that make the decisions we live with. That's my point. There will always be someone to spoil it for everyone..the old saying "one bad apple" comes to mind.

I do not care how anyone else sleeps, and to state again, everyone needs to do what is right for them. People have different values than mine, which is fine by me. I make the decision to do what I do, and so do you..period.

The question here is what is morally correct. That is something each individual needs to answer for themselves, and I'm not here trying to make that answer for anyone. I'm stating my opinion, and what I do and pointing out facts that others may not know.

You can qualify and quantify buying and trading fake pins however you want, and you may think it's the greatest thing in the world. But the bottom line is, fake pins create issues in all areas of pin trading, and at some level Disney will either pull the plug, or make it a less than magical experience for those of us who enjoy doing it, and do it the way it was intended.
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