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Old 03-03-2006, 04:45 PM   #76
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Chuck, the disabled Segway user is typically extremely well trained. A person with a physical challenge does not want to hurt themselves on a machine that has given them mobility once again. They also rarely push the machine to the limits, they are thrilled to be able to go 3 mph. We are not advocating that the entire family be permitted to enter in a Segway, merely that the disabled family member be able to be with their family at Disney.

I appreciate having had this discourse. I better understand the reasoning that Disney might have. As stated above, using your reasoning there wouldn't be any handicapped parking spaces or handicapped toilets because others might use them. I certainly don't know what Disney's official position is but if it is reasonably close to yours, than litigation might be necessary.
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:51 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck S
Sorry, but I don't think classes to train someone to use their equipment properly is a punishment, but is an advantage to the user, don't you? It would also help said user gain more acceptance for the Segway as a disability device rather than a toy. Wheelchairs and scooters do not travel at the speeds that Segways travel. At least I certainly don't have the remotest potential to push a wheelchair at 12 mph.

I've been to the SD zoo several times, I grew up in Los Angeles. Its estimated attendance on a 100 acre site was 3.2 million visitors in 2004. The Magic Kingdom's estimated guest count is 16.1 million for a 100 acre site in 2005. A much larger crowd means much less room to maneuver per person, less stopping/slowing distance between people, and as demonstrated by the sheer number of posts here claiming to have been "run down" by an ECV, more incidents per guest. You don't read reports of folks being run over with strollers, w/c and ECVs at SD zoo...but we constantly read such reports here for Disney.

There is a family that lives across the street from me, none of whom has a disability. They own four ECVs.

BTW, who says only one person in the party would rent a Segway and let the rest of their party walk? I've seen several parties where they all have ECVs to keep up with each other.

Disney has mainstreamed most, but not all of the ride queues for wheelchair access, there is no real advantage to being in a wheelchair at Disney other than the mobility issue. However, folks WOULD rent Segways fraudulently, leave them parked, and simply walk into the queues. It happens all the time with ECVs. Some folks would look at a Segway as simply a way to get from attraction to attraction faster.
Everyone that I know who uses a Segway who has a disability is trained, and trained very well. What makes you think they aren't trained?

Since you've been to the San Diego zoo several times you know the terrain there is dramatically different from anything that Disney has on their grounds.

There is no logic to the notion that because people are reportedly being run down by ECV's, wheelchairs, and strollers that you claim to read at Disney but then you would want to keep someone with a disability from using a Segway which has zero reports of running down anyone anywhere.

Reports are that those using Segways who have difficulty walking are predominantly in their 60s 70s and 80s but certainly there are many that are younger. I suspect that Disney would see predominantly grandparents and predominantly grandfathers who are too proud to ride in a wheelchair but feel they retain some dignity by being able to stand. Otherwise they wouldn't be there at all.
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:56 PM   #78
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My mom used to train service dogs. In order to be trained in a public area, service dogs must have a distinguishing vest. In order to obtain a service animal, the user is required to meet the animal, learn the commands, and prove the animal will improve their function. So in a way this is 'certification'.

On Segway tours, you are required to sign a liability/medical waiver. To answer a previous posters question, if there was an accident and a person was injured by a Segway user on Disney property Disney could legally be sued.

Power wheelchair accidents vs Segway accident tests. This study has a flaw-Unrepresentative Sample. This means that there is not a proper range of Segways being used in indoor public places as compared to power wheelchairs being used in indoor public places to do a proper study. Of course there will be more power wheelchair accidents reported because there are tons more users. By all psychological validation tests, this study is null and void.

I agree wholeheartedly with SueMN
Quote:
They could not control the speed of the ones people brought in, but since most people were using their own, they were experienced drivers and the top speed of most ECVs is around 4 to 6 mph. (There are are a few "power scooters - maybe the kind for people who watch ToolTime and feel like Tim Taylor that go up to 9 mph, but most ECVs are actually more in the 4-5 mph range).
Someone had posted that power wheelchairs can go up to 12 mph. There may be a few specialized wheelchairs that can go fast (the fastest I've seen was listed as 8mph), the majority of power wheelchairs still have a top speed of 4-6 mph (my DD's can go to 7.5, but her computer controller is set to not let her go more than 80% of full power, so her "programmed top speed is still around 6mph).
I did an internet search and the highest speed was 9mph on a less known company. Permobil's go no more then 6-usually 4.5. Quickies go about 5 (the 626 can go up to 7.5). Invacare ranges 4-7.5. I used a scooter at age 7 and it didn't go more then walking speed. Also all of Disney's scooters have an alarm when you back up. The rental companies are clearly marked. My chair goes up to 7.5 but I very rarely go this fast. My arm is too weak to hold the toggle all the way forward. Even 7.5 mph is really just a power walk or slow jog.

Quote:
Aslo, one of the things I've noticed recently is a lot of rental power wheelchairs; you can tell they are rental ones because of the advertizing stickers on the back of them. You can tell the difference between a power wheelchair and an ECV because they ECVs drive with a tiller between the legs and the power wheelchairs drive with a joystick.
As I said above scooters go much slower. They are also much easier to drive.

I do think that qualified and trained people with disabilities should be allowed to use Segways. The problem is defining "qualified and trained." I think a certification/competency test is a great idea. Handicap placards numbers are in a system that links the name to the person. My hospital (UCSF) gives free parking to people with disabilities. You give them your placard, they write it down, and your first initial and last name. They check the system to see if it's you. Now what if Disney had the user bring their disability placard & an ID. Then no one could use another person's placard. Then show proof of purchase of the Segway (with date). A certification-'license ' would be ideal but I'd say 6 months use should be enough. Finally, the guest signs a waiver saying they don't hold Disney liable for their injury and take legal responsibility for the injury of other park goers.

As a side note, there are electric wheelchairs that will go to a standing position and let you drive...for those who aren't strong enough/can't afford Segways but still want/need to stand
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:57 PM   #79
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Where have I said that Disney should not allow Segways for disabled people? Please show me where I have stated that. All I have said is that the ADA law is flawed, in that it does not allow Disney to be able to adequately determine if someone is actually using a Segway for a disability or joyride. That is true, isn't it? The law is written so that if they allow Segways it is all or nothing, no legal way to keep non-disabled Segways out of the parks. I'm pointing out that the LAW needs to be modified to protect BOTH the disabled person and the right of Disney to not allow joyriding Segways and ECVs. And no one has explained how taking a safety class is of no benefit to the disabled person on a Segway. If that were true, why would folks that have been driving for years get better insurance rates for taking a driving safety course. After all, I've been driving for 30+ years with no major accidents...same logic.
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:09 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwinfred
Everyone that I know who uses a Segway who has a disability is trained, and trained very well. What makes you think they aren't trained?
Then it would be no problem to have whoever trained them give them a certificate to put into their wallets to present to Disney, would it?
Quote:
Since you've been to the San Diego zoo several times you know the terrain there is dramatically different from anything that Disney has on their grounds.
Different terrain, yes. More difficult terrain. But Disney has much more crowded conditions with guests.

Quote:
There is no logic to the notion that because people are reportedly being run down by ECV's, wheelchairs, and strollers that you claim to read at Disney but then you would want to keep someone with a disability from using a Segway which has zero reports of running down anyone anywhere.
You are putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said people with disabilities should not be allowed to use them at Disney. I said that the ADA is flawed in that there is no legal way for Disney or any other venue, determine who is using a Segway because they are disabled vs. joyriding.

Quote:
We are not advocating that the entire family be permitted to enter in a Segway, merely that the disabled family member be able to be with their family at Disney.
And I have seen no one present a legal way for Disney to distinguish one from the other. How about addressing some solutions?
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:13 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck S
Where have I said that Disney should not allow Segways for disabled people? Please show me where I have stated that. All I have said is that the ADA law is flawed, in that it does not allow Disney to be able to adequately determine if someone is actually using a Segway for a disability or joyride. That is true, isn't it? The law is written so that if they allow Segways it is all or nothing, no legal way to keep non-disabled Segways out of the parks. I'm pointing out that the LAW needs to be modified to protect BOTH the disabled person and the right of Disney to not allow joyriding Segways and ECVs. And no one has explained how taking a safety class is of no benefit to the disabled person on a Segway. If that were true, why would folks that have been driving for years get better insurance rates for taking a driving safety course. After all, I've been driving for 30+ years with no major accidents...same logic.
I think that the issue with your position is simply this. People with disabilities who are using Segways have the expectation that they should be treated precisely like those using other assistive devices.

If Disney requires everyone using a power wheelchair or scooter who shows up there to take a safety course and that's permissible under the ADA then people with disabilities who use a Segway should be required to do so as well.

Can Disney adequately determine if someone is actually using a Segway for a disability or a joy ride? I think they can or at least I think I could but the better question would be to observe the individual and if they were a problem and exhibited dangerous behavior than they could be ejected.

There was a great deal of debate about this issue when the ADA was passed and it was determined that requiring certification of people with disabilities and requiring them to carry credentials would make them the only class of people in the United States which were required to carry credentials. This notion was so offensive to many that it was rejected.

But it's really not an all-or-nothing kind of situation, those with any training should easily be able to discern the authentic from the suspect.
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:14 PM   #82
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Solution

Quote:
I do think that qualified and trained people with disabilities should be allowed to use Segways. The problem is defining "qualified and trained." I think a certification/competency test is a great idea. Handicap placards numbers are in a system that links the name to the person. My hospital (UCSF) gives free parking to people with disabilities. You give them your placard, they write it down, and your first initial and last name. They check the system to see if it's you. Now what if Disney had the user bring their disability placard & an ID. Then no one could use another person's placard. Then show proof of purchase of the Segway (with date). A certification-'license ' would be ideal but I'd say 6 months use should be enough. Finally, the guest signs a waiver saying they don't hold Disney liable for their injury and take legal responsibility for the injury of other park goers.
(from my post above)
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:22 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwinfred
I think that the issue with your position is simply this. People with disabilities who are using Segways have the expectation that they should be treated precisely like those using other assistive devices.

If Disney requires everyone using a power wheelchair or scooter who shows up there to take a safety course and that's permissible under the ADA than people with disabilities who use a Segway should be required to do so as well.
Basically, yes, it is hard to ignore the fact that ECVs/scooters don;t even have the potential to reach the speeds that Segways can.
Quote:
Can Disney adequately determine if someone is actually using a Segway for a disability or a joy ride? I think they can work least I think I could but the better question would be to observe the individual and if they were a problem exhibited dangerous behavior than they could be ejected.
And you expect Disney to hire how many people just to monitor the Segway users, especially when a training certificate would cheaply and quickly solve the problem.
Quote:
There was a great deal of debate about this issue when the ADA was passed and it was determined that requiring certification of people with disabilities and requiring them to carry credentials would make them the only class of people in the United States which were required to carry credentials. This notion was so offensive to many that it was rejected.

So it's really not an all-or-nothing kind of situation, those with any training should easily be able to discern the authentic from the suspect.
But proving it to deny access to the joyriders? What if a Disney employee innocently makes a bad determination and either a) allows a dangerous joyrider in the park -or- b) wrongfully does not allow a disableed person into the park. Major lawsuit, which again, a simple training card, would solve. Segways were not in the picture, nor were ECVs being used as status symbols when the ADA was initially drawn up. The law must be flexible for changing times and new technologies.
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:29 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck S
Different terrain, yes. More difficult terrain. But Disney has much more crowded conditions with guests.


I think that you would agree that you've seen areas of the San Diego zoo just as crowded as any areas of Disney. I mean you can't put any more people in a 10' x 10' space than can actually stand there can you?

It's just as crowded at the San Diego zoo with a hundred people standing shoulder to shoulder in a given spot as it is at Disney.

Isn't that correct?

So the question is do you have a higher probability of causing injury to others when you're using a device such as the Segway in a crowd at Disney or in a power wheelchair which you've rented?
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:44 PM   #85
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Chuck S
And you expect Disney to hire how many people just to monitor the Segway users, especially when a training certificate would cheaply and quickly solve the problem.
A training certificate would not solve the problem of bad behavior.

The Segway without question is the safest of all of the assistive devices. It's also probably the easiest to learn to operate. There's a whole lot of reasons for that but the most notable one is that its footprint is roughly the size of an adult human being. People who operate scooters (particularly rented ones) typically aren't familiar with where their wheels are and run over someone's foot or because they're out of someone's eye level tripping someone who's unaware that they've come in to close proximity to them.

Your concern with the Segway is its ability to travel at a faster rate of speed than the scooter. While the Segway doesn't travel as fast as a human being I will agree that it has the ability to travel faster than most scooters. It also has the ability to travel at a variety of speeds from zero to 12 1/2 miles per hour.

So your concern is that someone would exhibit bad behavior and operate the Segway faster than they should in a crowded area. The solution for that is if they are exhibiting dangerous behavior they're ejected.

Training does not prevent bad behavior.

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Old 03-03-2006, 05:55 PM   #87
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I am 45, have Parkinson's, and have owned a Segway for over a year. It is a part of my everyday life and has given me the opportunity to continue to live an active life. I take it all over Atlanta, whether shopping, going to my son's school or to church. The State of Georgia doesn't consider the Segway a "motorized" vehicle. I have been to Las Vegas twice and gone to all casino's (and was only banned from MGM). Everyone else was very accomodating. I have also been to San Diego and taken it all over the zoo and wild animal park(up and down all of the hills). I have taken it through the Atlanta airport (the world's busiest) during the peak travel times and have yet to run over or injure someone. I ride it to the plane door and check it. It is approved by the FAA as a mobility device. I use only the black key (lowest) because I know my limitations and I also have my blue handicapped placard displayed.

I am going to Disney World next month and staying at Ft Wilderness. I was told today by the resort that I may use my Segway on the Ft Wilderness grounds. However, I will have rent a scooter at the parks because I cannot push a wheelchair, and it will cost me approx $40/day, which I do find discriminatory.

I called the Justice Dept over a year ago and was told by their rep that in the ADA there is no approved list of medical mobility devices. I was also told that it had not been approved by any federal agency as a mobility device. The last time I looked, the FAA was federal.

I believe ignorance about the Segway is our biggest enemy, and that it can only be fought through advocacy and education. If we have the technology, why shouldn't we use it? I would think more people have been injured or killed on Disney rides than the Segway.

Thanks for this discussion.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:49 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwinfred
A training certificate would not solve the problem of bad behavior.

The Segway without question is the safest of all of the assistive devices. It's also probably the easiest to learn to operate. There's a whole lot of reasons for that but the most notable one is that its footprint is roughly the size of an adult human being. People who operate scooters (particularly rented ones) typically aren't familiar with where their wheels are and endocrine over someone's foot or because they're out of someone's eye level tripping someone who's unaware that they've come in to close proximity to them.

Your concern with the Segway is its ability to travel at a faster rate of speed than the scooter. While the Segway doesn't travel as fast as a human being I will agree that it has the ability to travel faster than most scooters. It also has the ability to travel at a variety of speeds from zero to 12 1/2 miles per hour.

So your concern is that someone would exhibit bad behavior and operate the Segway faster than they should in a crowded area. The solution for that is if they are exhibiting dangerous behavior they're ejected.

Training does not prevent bad behavior.
But a training certificate WOULD prevent folks renting one for a few days or hours to joyride through the parks, especially if those classes were free (or maybe a nominal $5 fee) ONLY at a disabled or senior community center, for disabled and seniors, and the free classes required the person being certified to live in the general vicinity (same or adjacent county) of the place that has the free classes. Able bodied folks could pay an safety course fee from an authorized service center, much like auto safety classes. And it never hurts to have additional training, no matter how experienced someone may be, it would be of benefit, just like a driver safety class. Again, a win-win situation.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:17 PM   #89
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My current job is in the area of something called "Performance Improvement". A good part of Perfomance Improvement is looking at the process the way it is, or the way you want to change it to be. You look at all the parts of the process (whether it is baking a cake, doing surgery, or bringing Segways into WDW) and the places where the process can/could/maybe fall apart or fail. Those "what ifs" are the things you need to take into account if you want success.
So, those who want to see Segways in places like WDW have a better chance of success if you understand the "what ifs". Understanding them allows you to prepare for when they are brought up and also to suggest some ways to deal with them.
At least that's IMHO.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:28 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck S
But a training certificate WOULD prevent folks renting one for a few days or hours to joyride through the parks, especially if those classes were free (or maybe a nominal $5 fee) ONLY at a disabled or senior community center, for disabled and seniors, and the free classes required the person being certified to live in the general vicinity (same or adjacent county) of the place that has the free classes. Able bodied folks could pay an safety course fee from an authorized service center, much like auto safety classes. And it never hurts to have additional training, no matter how experienced someone may be, it would be of benefit, just like a driver safety class. Again, a win-win situation.
There is a part of me that tends to agree that what you said above would work.

The problem is the original point that Disney is in violation of the law.

The best I've heard is that they can't comply because Disney is so large it's to hard to control.

That doesn't change the law.

I'm not a big fan of the Federal Income Tax laws but does that mean that I don't have to pay my taxes ?

When the ADA was first implemented my buisness did what we needed to do to comply with the law, and it cost me plenty out of pocket but I understood the need for the law.

As stated in my original post I don't, and still don't, understand why a company with the visability of Disney has not come into comliance.

Regards,
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