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Old 03-01-2006, 02:17 PM   #16
BillSears
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Alan,

Yep I agree that there should be some way of allowing a Segway in. I'm just trying to figure out how to work around the problems.

Maybe they can require a special GAC that you can get that would allow Segways only for those with the card. You still wouldn't have to verify disability but you would have to ask for one. That might work.

Oh one thing I did notice above. You mentioned Fort Wilderness as a "nice resort". I wanted to make sure you weren't thinking of Wilderness Lodge. Fort Wilderness is the camp grounds. Just a clarification in case you decide to book a room at Wilderness Lodge.

I hope Disney finds a way to accommidate your needs. Everyone should be allowed to enjoy WDW in thier own way.
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:59 PM   #17
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Bill,

I agree. I don't see such a big issue, for me anyway, to disclose or have certification in order the help the progress of new technology.

It's just that the laws are there and this should not be so hard to get done.

The horse people were not happy with the car way back when, but I digress !

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Old 03-01-2006, 03:03 PM   #18
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Well it shouldn't be an issue if people that have disabilities brought their own. Disney doesn't have to rent them. Probably a good idea if they don't. Like Power Wheelchairs.
Disney has to weigh the safety of the able bodied to the accessibility for those with disabilities. And sometimes the two conflict unfortunately.
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking Hands
Well it shouldn't be an issue if people that have disabilities brought their own. Disney doesn't have to rent them. Probably a good idea if they don't. Like Power Wheelchairs.
Disney has to weigh the safety of the able bodied to the accessibility for those with disabilities. And sometimes the two conflict unfortunately.
I'm with you, private owners only.

I think Disney already rents scooters.

No conflict, just the law.

Enjoy your afternoon,
Alan
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarkus
I'm with you, private owners only.

I think Disney already rents scooters.

No conflict, just the law.

Enjoy your afternoon,
Alan

I'm curious as to which provisions of the ADA that you are relying on. I agree with you that it should be the law, but as a lawyer, I don't understand the ADA to be that cut and dried on mobility devicies. Just looking to become more informed . . .

Thanks!
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:29 PM   #21
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There would also be problems limiting who is allowed to bring in their Segway - the ADA allows for equal access, not superior, and that can be looked at from two perspectives. The first would be that the Segway allows the disabled user to 'keep pace' with the able-bodied. The second would be that the endurance and ease of travel would give the disabled user 'superior' access, and thus not be covered under the ADA. It would be very difficult to ban some people from bringing in a Segway while others were allowed to.

Of course, not everyone has a Segway - but I'd bet a couple dollars that a few Segway rental stores would pop up in Orlando if Segways were allowed. Think of all the rented ECVs from outside sources at WDW.
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherfeather24
I'm curious as to which provisions of the ADA that you are relying on. I agree with you that it should be the law, but as a lawyer, I don't understand the ADA to be that cut and dried on mobility devicies. Just looking to become more informed . . .

Thanks!
HF24
Exactley the point !

When the ADA was drafted they were ambiguous as to exact names and types of devices as to leave room for new technologies.

So what happened was the "standard" became the FDOT definition of the " common wheelchair".

By strict definition the Segway DOES NOT meet the common wheelchair definition because it only has 2 wheels.

The original standard stated 3 or 4 wheel devices, as thats what was common at the time.

The FDOT has now issued guidance as to the Segway and has in essence brought the Segway into the "common wheelchair" category.

Hence the position that the Segway falls under ADA protections.

It's also protected by the Assisted technology act.

Without my "ears" yet I can't post url's that would help spell this out.

This is for those with qualifying disabilities of course.

Common wheelchair
http://adaptiveenvironments.org/nead...03b6b8106eaaf6

FDOT/SEGWAY
http://www.fta.dot.gov/14531_17515_ENG_HTML.htm

Related information
http://www.draft.cc

WOW, I got my ears !

Thanks for all the input,
Alan

Last edited by tarkus; 03-01-2006 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:21 PM   #23
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FDA approval

"Segway HTs cannot be marketed as medical devices, because Segway HTs have not been approved by the FDA as a medical device." (http://www.answers.com/topic/segway)

This is probably the reason Disney (and other places) do not allow Segways. Until the FDA approves it as a medical device, there probably will not be much improvement. Also this site said some newer Segways can go up to 24 mph which would obviously be too dangerous a speed...

I don't think the common public should be allowed to use it in indoor areas. Disney or other offsite places shouldn't be able to rent it. Only those who own one, are trained on it, and have a disability placard should be able to use it. But if Disney imposed these restrictions and asked for proof they could be accused of violating medical privacy...it's all complicated.

When the FDA approves it & it is marketed as a mobility aid, then establishments will be more apt to approve its use.

I would concentrate on the media, educating the FDA, and marketing your idea to Segway to make this happen.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherfeather24
I'm curious as to which provisions of the ADA that you are relying on. I agree with you that it should be the law, but as a lawyer, I don't understand the ADA to be that cut and dried on mobility devicies. Just looking to become more informed . . .

Thanks!
HF24
quite honestly the ADA has nothing to do with the specifications of mobility devices. As a lawyer I'm sure you're familiar with Attorney General Thornburgh's remarks when DOJ was implementing the ADA after its passage that there would be no attempt to identify devices because any attempt to do so would not be able to take into account future advances in technology.

However you might refer to the 1973 Rehabilitation Act as amended in 1998 which identifies an assistive technology device as "any item, piece of equipment, product system, whether acquired commercially, or modified which improves the functional capabilities of people with disabilities.

There is absolutely no requirement under any Federal LAW which requires an assistant device to have FDA approval.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternaldisneyfan
"Segway HTs cannot be marketed as medical devices, because Segway HTs have not been approved by the FDA as a medical device."

This is probably the reason Disney (and other places) do not allow Segways. Until the FDA approves it as a medical device, there probably will not be much improvement. Also this site said some newer Segways can go up to 24 mph which would obviously be too dangerous a speed...

I don't think the common public should be allowed to use it in indoor areas. Disney or other offsite places shouldn't be able to rent it. Only those who own one, are trained on it, and have a disability placard should be able to use it. But if Disney imposed these restrictions and asked for proof they could be accused of violating medical privacy...it's all complicated.

When the FDA approves it & it is marketed as a mobility aid, then establishments will be more apt to approve its use.

I would concentrate on the media, educating the FDA, and marketing your idea to Segway to make this happen.
there isn't actually any Segway they can go 24 mph the top speed of all Segways is 12.5 mph with the exception of the P. model which has a top speed of 10 mph.

Disability rights organizations across the country have to sue organizations every day for violating provisions of the ADA. The only reason that Disney hasn't been sued yet is because it's far down on the pecking order in terms of importance to people with disabilities everyday lives.

Perhaps some day soon it will rise to the top and they will get to explain themselves in federal court.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternaldisneyfan
"Segway HTs cannot be marketed as medical devices, because Segway HTs have not been approved by the FDA as a medical device." (http://www.answers.com/topic/segway)

This is probably the reason Disney (and other places) do not allow Segways. Until the FDA approves it as a medical device, there probably will not be much improvement. Also this site said some newer Segways can go up to 24 mph which would obviously be too dangerous a speed...

I don't think the common public should be allowed to use it in indoor areas. Disney or other offsite places shouldn't be able to rent it. Only those who own one, are trained on it, and have a disability placard should be able to use it. But if Disney imposed these restrictions and asked for proof they could be accused of violating medical privacy...it's all complicated.

When the FDA approves it & it is marketed as a mobility aid, then establishments will be more apt to approve its use.

I would concentrate on the media, educating the FDA, and marketing your idea to Segway to make this happen.
This is not my idea, it's about the law and the ADA.

FDA approval is not a requirement for ADA protection, and that is what this is about.

Disney nor any other "public accommodation", witch is what a theme park is under Title III of the ADA, gets to chose what laws they want to follow.

As far as violating the privacy end, they are already violating ADA as it stands.

I will agree that I don't see why someone who could walk would want to ride thru Disney.

My wife and I enjoyed many walks on Disney properties when I was healthy and believe on foot was the best way to take in the beauty.

It's hard to do that with your head at butt level, but again I digress.....

Sweet dreams,
Alan
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarkus
SueM,

I fully understand the position of no Segs for the able bodied, but we are talking about folks with qualifying disabilities. The Segway holds the same position as a mobility scooter as far as the ADA is concerned.

In fact, it does not. As shown by actions by the DOJ and decisions made by SCOTUS, it is highly unlikely that anyone having the stability and balance required to operate the Segway would qualify for protection of the ADA, which requires that a person be SUBSTANTIALLY limited in a major life activity (of walking, etc. in this application). The Segway requires balance, proprioception, and an occasional bit of fancy footwork to operate safely...none of which is required for the use of a "mobility scooter."

Anyone wishing to make a federal case out of this would be stopped in their tracks by the DOJ, which would dismiss the case on the basis that the complainant had no standing under the ADA.
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videogal1
In fact, it does not. As shown by actions by the DOJ and decisions made by SCOTUS, it is highly unlikely that anyone having the stability and balance required to operate the Segway would qualify for protection of the ADA, which requires that a person be SUBSTANTIALLY limited in a major life activity (of walking, etc. in this application). The Segway requires balance, proprioception, and an occasional bit of fancy footwork to operate safely...none of which is required for the use of a "mobility scooter."

Anyone wishing to make a federal case out of this would be stopped in their tracks by the DOJ, which would dismiss the case on the basis that the complainant had no standing under the ADA.
With all do respect, I'm living proof !

If you like I will submit you both The Miami Project and Mayo Clinics reports to the contrary.

So "highly unlikely" leaves you a lot of wiggle room.

If you look at my links you will see Quads, double amps, paras all using Segways.

Would they be stopped in their tracks?

Regards,
Alan
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarkus
With all do respect, I'm living proof !

If you like I will submit you both The Miami Project and Mayo Clinics reports to the contrary.

So "highly unlikely" leaves you a lot of wiggle room.

If you look at my links you will see Quads, double amps, paras all using Segways.

Would they be stopped in their tracks?

Regards,
Alan

You may be living proof that you can use a Segway but if you, or anyone with your capabilities, were to push this to its final legal end you would not only lose your status under the ADA but also make some very bad case law. You cannot claim ADA protection if you have capabilities outside those defined by the DOJ and SCOTUS which, at this time, do not include ADA protection for anyone able to safely operate a Segway while still claiming impaired mobility at the level required by the ADA. Is that what you want?
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:28 PM   #30
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There is another concern to address. With the ADA barring Disney from inquiring about the type of disability that requires someone to use a segway...or asking for proof of that disability, if they allowed them in the parks under the ADA, I see the immediate start up of off site rental operations that would rent segways to anyone. Disney could not say "No, unless you prove a disability." Even for safety concerns under the ADA. I think that the FDA and FDOT need to come up with an easy way to modify the Segways to make them "obviously" a handicapped/medical device...maybe a special color or paint design that, by Federal law, could only be obtained with a Physician's permission, and only be operated by the person with a "medical permit." For this type of technology, there has to be some sort of "bending" of privacy for the safety of people in crowded areas. That way, folks that truly need them could operate them, and those that don't wouldn't be able to obtain a medical permit or special colored Segway.
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