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Old 03-04-2006, 07:33 PM   #136
SueM in MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck S
There was also one time that the bus floor was worn so it stuck out a little into the lift area, caught my back pocket/wallet on the way up and ripped my pants so I had to go back to the room and change.
Sorry, I have to do this.
I have seen those rough places and warned DH to be careful when he goes up the lift with DD. Same thing could have easily happened to him.
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Old 03-04-2006, 08:50 PM   #137
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Just something of interest for this topic:

http://www.startribune.com/466/story/269856.html



Melvin Sand pushed for Segway acceptance
The Minneapolis man was always on the go, even in his 90s.
Anthony Lonetree, Star Tribune

When Melvin Sand talked Metro Transit into allowing Segway human transporters onto metro-area buses in 2003, his kids weren't at all surprised.
One might guess, however, that fellow passengers thought him an unlikely pioneer.

He was 95 years old at the time.

Sand, of Minneapolis, who died Feb. 13 of a stroke at 97, was introduced to Star Tribune readers in September 2003 in a front-page story relating the difficulties that Segway owners were having in storing the then-new people-movers.

He was a man always on the move, said Marlene Hanson, his daughter, and Kenneth Sand, one of his two sons. At 77, Melvin Sand roofed his daughter's house on his own. And at 93, he tore apart a damaged porch outside his son's home in St. Louis Park and used what he could of the wood to build a shed in the back yard.

"He was something," Kenneth Sand said.

In 2003, Melvin Sand told the Star Tribune that he first saw a Segway - a battery-powered device resembling an upright vacuum cleaner with wheels - motor in front of him while he was walking in downtown Minneapolis.

"I decided, 'I'd like to have one of those,' " he said.

After bus drivers expressed reservations about letting him on with the Segway, Sand demonstrated the device for Metro Transit officials and persuaded them to issue a bulletin to drivers allowing the machines to be stored on the buses' wheelchair lifts.

Sand would use his Segway to ride from a St. Louis Park bus stop to his son's home, and to visit construction sites downtown. A retired sheet-metal worker, he loved watching buildings go up, his daughter said.

When his family emptied his apartment, Marlene Hanson added, they found two construction hard hats that had been given to him by companies working downtown.

Sand's Segway now is for sale, Kenneth Sand said, for $2,250 at Segway of Minnesota, 13009 Ridgedale Drive, Minnetonka.

In addition to son Kenneth and daughter Marlene, Sand is survived by a second son, Melvin Sand Jr.; 10 grandchildren; 11 great-grandchildren; five great-great grandchildren, and a sister, Elsie Wiley. He was preceded in death by his wife, Dorothy.

Services have been held.

Anthony Lonetree • 612-673-4455

©2006 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
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Old 03-04-2006, 09:02 PM   #138
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I'd like to ask a question from another perspective - how can it be legal to ban able-bodied people from using Segways at WDW if they do eventually let disabled people use them? Isn't that against the law, written into the ADA as 'granting equal but not superior access' to paraphrase? I've been trying to find the link that has this section of the ADA in it, but I haven't been able to find it.

They can't ban me from using a scooter if others can use a scooter, they can't ban me from coming in with an electric wheelchair if I had one either, could they? For example, we have access to an old electric wheelchair that belonged to a friend who passed away. If my mom chose to use it on our next trip, would she be allowed? She has bad knees, but does not have a disabled placard for her car or anything like that.
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Old 03-04-2006, 09:19 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmeck
I'd like to ask a question from another perspective - how can it be legal to ban able-bodied people from using Segways at WDW if they do eventually let disabled people use them? Isn't that against the law, written into the ADA as 'granting equal but not superior access' to paraphrase? I've been trying to find the link that has this section of the ADA in it, but I haven't been able to find it.

They can't ban me from using a scooter if others can use a scooter, they can't ban me from coming in with an electric wheelchair if I had one either, could they? For example, we have access to an old electric wheelchair that belonged to a friend who passed away. If my mom chose to use it on our next trip, would she be allowed? She has bad knees, but does not have a disabled placard for her car or anything like that.
I think that phrase is part of a larger clause (and I'm paraphrasing) that says that public accomodation must grant reasonable equal access, but can not be compelled by law to grant "superior" access. They may grant superior access if they choose to do so. However, equal vs. superior are pretty broad and vague concepts under the law (not just the ADA, law in general), and are often decided in civil proceedings.
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Old 03-05-2006, 06:21 AM   #140
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Thanks Chuck, for the clarification!

So, it sounds like my mom could use the electric wheelchair if she wanted to. At this point she's more likely to get a scooter, but she knows how to use/handle the electric wheelchair as well. Hopefully the next round of doctor appts about her knees will finally show what in the world is causing her so much pain.
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Old 03-05-2006, 07:39 AM   #141
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I'm not sure how to do the quote thing, but when Sue provided the information about the ADA/Segway and the link, she DID say that it was the Segwow site and not the Segway site. I have found this thread to have had argumentative tones which isn't what this board is about. It's about helping each other, and talking about "what if's" and thinking out loud about a situation that's helpful to brainstorm. No one wants to see rights eroded that we have all fought so hard to achieve, but I also like to play devil's advocate and put myself in another's shoes, even another's shoes that are as large as Mickey's. I also assisted Disney in the ramp/backing-up issue as the manufacturer of my chair ( permobil) states never to back up due to the power base of the chair. I am also unable to back into a lift type bus due to ventilator hoses and other equipment that could get stuck in the lift ( just like a ripped pocket!) but as Lisa mentioned it did take years to get the policy amended and many "discussions" with bus drivers and bus supervisors. We spoke....they listened. I took the time out of my family vacations to educate people because I felt it was necessary for all wheelchair users to be able to operate their equipment safely and that's probably some of what needs to happen with the Segway. Just as another thought...., when someone first posts to the boards I don't feel the warm fuzzies when the new person jumps in and challenges everyone who answers their posts. I expect that we will try as always to have a reasonable discussion and understanding of each other's perspectives and not a challenge that we should all read up on the law or that we should "know better". I also agree that something is lost when a discussion is in print only, but just think about it. If you first meet a group of people, how do you want to present yourself? ---Kathy
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Old 03-05-2006, 08:19 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclfun
I'm not sure how to do the quote thing, but when Sue provided the information about the ADA/Segway and the link, she DID say that it was the Segwow site and not the Segway site.
Just to clarify, I thought it was the Segway site when I posted it. I did provide a link to the site where I got the information from, so it was possible for someone to go to the source and read it themselves. The language that site uses on their FAQs does sound like the are the official Segway site, so it is sort of misleading.
When I found out it wasn't the official site, I did edit my post to clarify that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dclfun
And, when I found out I have found this thread to have had argumentative tones which isn't what this board is about. It's about helping each other, and talking about "what if's" and thinking out loud about a situation that's helpful to brainstorm. No one wants to see rights eroded that we have all fought so hard to achieve, but I also like to play devil's advocate and put myself in another's shoes, even another's shoes that are as large as Mickey's. I also assisted Disney in the ramp/backing-up issue as the manufacturer of my chair ( permobil) states never to back up due to the power base of the chair. I am also unable to back into a lift type bus due to ventilator hoses and other equipment that could get stuck in the lift ( just like a ripped pocket!) but as Lisa mentioned it did take years to get the policy amended and many "discussions" with bus drivers and bus supervisors. We spoke....they listened. I took the time out of my family vacations to educate people because I felt it was necessary for all wheelchair users to be able to operate their equipment safely and that's probably some of what needs to happen with the Segway. Just as another thought...., when someone first posts to the boards I don't feel the warm fuzzies when the new person jumps in and challenges everyone who answers their posts. I expect that we will try as always to have a reasonable discussion and understanding of each other's perspectives and not a challenge that we should all read up on the law or that we should "know better". I also agree that something is lost when a discussion is in print only, but just think about it. If you first meet a group of people, how do you want to present yourself? ---Kathy
I agree entirely with you Kathy. You stated everything very well.

The OP didn't say what the purpose of this thread was, so we can't know for sure, but it does not appear (at least IMHO) that the primary purpose was to brainstorm or listen to what we had to say. Most of the people coming to this board are looking for assistance and one of the ways we do that is brainstorming; posters will use some of the ideas that come out in the discussion and discard others. We don't get very many posts where someone is trying to "advocate" or argue for their position.
You are exactly right that this thread has an arguementative tone (it actually looks much more like one that would have appeared on the old Debate Board than a typical thread we see on this board.)

I want to thank everyone who participated for not letting this thread become the type of thread that made the Debate Board ultimately go away. It could have easily gone that way.
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Old 03-05-2006, 09:58 AM   #143
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SueM,

Again, thanks for the open conversation.

To be frank, I thought there might be some discussion and debate but never imaganed it would have gone on for so long.

That happens when two sides have opposing positions.

The purpose of the thread was simple, I stated that after 25 years I can't go back for a while.

Then it became education. Then it started to get beaten.

I will have contact about WDW official position and then see where we are at.

Again thanks to yourself, Chuck and the others here for your input.

Have a good day,
Alan
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Old 03-05-2006, 10:51 AM   #144
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Thank you, alan for a sort of "Wrap up" and I think at this point it is the time to close this thread (pretty much everything has been discussed and I'm not sure there is anything new to add). If anyone thinks otherwise, or has some burning need to say something (in a nice way), let me know and I can re-open it for you.

I just want to add that there are different ways to get to the same end.
My preferred way is education. Some people's prefered way is confrontation.
I don't think there can always be a meeting point between the two groups, but hopefully, they can at least listen to each other.

I first saw the Segway the day "the secret of Ginger" was revealed on the Good Morning America show. I could not see a lot of benefit for most able bodied individuals to use one (other than fun). I could see a lot of possibilities for certain people with disabilities. I could lots of risks and benefits that need to be weighed and lots of things that had to be worked out (things like storage when not being used, recharging since the first ones had a pretty short battery range).

The Segway would not be at all useful for my DD because of the nature of her disability and, even though the iBOT wheelchair is very cool, it would not work for her because she lacks some of the abilites needed to use it. (Plus, it looks like a hard sell to insurance companies/MA because of the cost).
But, as many of you know, I work in a Rehab setting and see people who have things like MS, brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, some of whom the Segway would be useful for.
I did searches on the internet periodically to see whether people with disabilities were using them and who was using them. After doing a Segway tour at Ecpot with my DH, I could see some real advantages for some people with disabilities and some shortcomings - it is a lot of work to stand up on one of those for any period of time, so they would not be useful for everyone with disabilities just because that person can stand (and, yes, I saw seats for them several years ago).

I still think I still think education is the way to go if the people advocating want to get the Segway accepted all over. One of the problems I've seen (that those of you who are advocating use of Segways for people with disabilities need to be aware of) is that OTs, PTs, Physicians tend to recommend what they know and are comfortable with. We've seen that with DD and communication devices and the mounts for holding one onto her wheelchair. I know a lot more about those things than most of the therapists because I am willing to think outside the box and look for alternatives. Many aren't.
The other thing I've noticed, is that coming to some entity with an idea of what their concerns are (and some thought of how to mitigate those concerns) is very helpful. That way, they don't go into "defense mode" right away and you have some ability to influence the process (and might ultimately get more than if they felt like they had to defend themselves).

So, if you want to increase the number of people who can benefit from these new technologies and places to use them, education is the key.....
at least IMHO.

So, best wishes on getting Segways accepted for the people who rely on them.
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