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Old 10-27-2014, 11:22 PM   #16
videogal1
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Originally Posted by MissMaryQC View Post
So true. I work for a large retailer and we welcome animals into our store, except in our restaurant; only service animals are welcome there for health code reasons. Because we cater to our customers we tend to not question them, even when their "service dog" is sitting on their table eating from their plate...
Well, that was what COSTCO v Grill was about. It addressed the right of a business (COSTCO) to assert their desire for a certain standard when it came to Service Dogs (specifically the one belonging to Ms Grill) on their premises. COSTCO won the case and these three questions were the result. It doesn't take a legal genius to understand the precedent set by COSTCO v Grill and any business with access to a legal advisor should feel confident about their position when it comes to holding both legally qualified handlers as well as Service dog frauds to a legal standard that will quickly deter them from trying to take advantage of a right belonging only to those who are entitled to claim it responsibly. The responsibility for this determination really belongs to the business. A business has already won a case brought by a Service Dog handler. The handler lost. This notion of a Service Dog handler holding all the legal cards is simply a self-imposed blackmail that businesses are engaging in.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:12 AM   #17
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OMG! The service dog issue and legal access needs some kind of standardization! The fakes and their imposter handlers are a serious problem and there needs to be a way to weed out the people who scam the system. We have a legitimate service dog for my disabled son. The dog went through 18 months of training with a professional training organization. Mind you, this is the fourth dog that entered training for my son. The first 3 washed out of the program at various points in their training because they didn't meet the necessary standards. We then went through almost 200 hours of training with the dog to become handlers and to use the dog correctly. We invested an astounding amount of time, money, and resources into getting this special tool to help my son in his daily functions and this tool (the dog) has expanded my son's life in ways we could have never expected. When people pass their purse dog off as a service animal it really minimizes what a real service dog is and makes life harder for service dog handlers. The people who need and use service dogs are already fighting battles most people couldn't imagine, to make them fight for the tool that expands their worlds in so many ways is another barrier they don't need. The people passing their fluffy, puffy, lovey, lickey, yippee little toys off as a service animal and think it is just too cute and they love their dogs and whatever else they fabricate to justify their ignorance of the law or blatant disregard for the law infuriate me beyond belief. We fight enough battles day in and day out, year after year, because we have no other choice but to keep fighting for our child. Why should we have to fight people who are selfish and seriously lacking morals too?
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Old 10-28-2014, 01:09 AM   #18
foxrunkn
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Fake Service Dogs

As a owner/trainer I agree with what has already been said. I am now being helped by my second dog, who is a med sized dog. The first one I trained alerted to my medical problems, and saved my life twice. The one I have now does tasks to help me during my daily life. Neither one of them would have never even thought about jumping up on a table. No TRUE Service Dog would ever be caught sitting on a table and eating from the persons plate. My dog is trained so that if she is under a table and food falls on the floor she is to ignore it. All these fake dogs are doing is making it bad for the real ones that come behind them. I never mind being asked if Annie is a Service Dog, she wears her vest with pride, and I am happy to answer most questions asked. But then again I have nothing to hide.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:15 PM   #19
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Because you don't want to habituate a dog to go potty while they are working. It is the same reason you don't play with or pet a service dog while they are on duty. When they are working they are only working.
Sorry, I meant why doesn't any manager at the store ask the two permissible questions about the purported "service" dog.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by CPT Tripss View Post
Sorry, I meant why doesn't any manager at the store ask the two permissible questions about the purported "service" dog.
You can ask but most people will tell you a fake answer. They will say yes and then make something up. I have a family member who always says yes and that her dog detects nutmeg for her since she is allergic to it. She is not allergic to nutmeg at all! It disgusts me and I always tell her if her dog is coming I'm not. She finally got it through her head this year that the dog is a bite hazard and started leaving it at home but only after the dog snapped at someone's kid who was trying to pet the dog.
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Old 10-28-2014, 10:44 PM   #21
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We recently encountered two 'service dogs' that have shifted my opinion on service dogs. I used to think it was better to err on the side of the person with the dog.

Then we encountered a 'service' dog that wouldn't 'heel' on the handler's command. It was bizarre, especially as we were in a crowd.

And also in a crowd, a 'service' dog stuck its head in my son's lap as it passed us. Not a brief sniff, but literally stuck its head in my son's lap (my son was in his stroller.). Though we have three dogs, my son is afraid of dogs he doesn't know. Loves ours, fears others.... and my son's first fear response is aggression. We were lucky he had his blanket over his head and couldn't get uncovered quick enough to react.


ETA-both dogs had vests.


So my son is in separate setting and there are 'service' animals that accompany other children.... and we met one parent that was advocating for their 'trained' pit-bull to be allowed in the school, cause they have the right. Sigh, well, anyway I do see fake service animals as a real problem.

I really wish there was a real standard because I think untrained animals can be dangerous to more that merchandise.

Last edited by ladyjubilee; 10-28-2014 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 10-28-2014, 10:49 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ladyjubilee View Post
We recently encountered two 'service dogs' that have shifted my opinion on service dogs. I used to think it was better to err on the side of the person with the dog. Then we encountered a 'service' dog that wouldn't 'heel' on the handler's command. It was bizarre, especially as we were in a crowd. And also in a crowd, a 'service' dog stuck its head in my son's lap as it passed us. Not a brief sniff, but literally stuck its head in my son's lap (my son was in his stroller.). Though we have three dogs, my son is afraid of dogs he doesn't know. Loves ours, fears others.... and my son's first fear response is aggression. We were lucky he had his blanket over his head and couldn't get uncovered quick enough to react. So my son is in separate setting and there are 'service' animals that accompany other children.... and we met one parent that was advocating for their 'trained' pit-bull to be allowed in the school, cause they have the right. Sigh, well, anyway I do see fake service animals as a real problem. I really wish there was a real standard because I think untrained animals can be dangerous to more that merchandise.
There are trained pit bulls who work as service dogs. They actually make really good service dogs because their sole mindset is to please their person. One of the people I mentioned prior who did go ahead and get their license in NY had a pit who was their seeing eye dog. He was an amazingly well behaved dog and did his job perfectly.
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Old 10-29-2014, 10:27 PM   #23
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I'm still not comfortable with an animal that powerful that may or may not be well trained, in a confined space with my very unpredictable child.
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Old 10-29-2014, 10:45 PM   #24
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I will say as a business owner there's no way I would question a customer. Chances are they would probably lie. Then what would I do? Just sit there and fume about how there's not one stinking thing I can do. I'm not about to get sued over it.

I do however believe in karma. At least i still have that. Can't count on any laws to protect me.
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Old 10-30-2014, 02:37 PM   #25
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A good friend here trains dogs, and 'puppies' have to be a certain age and have a certain amount of training 'behind the scenes' to take out in public to 'train'. They 'must' be obedient to all the trainer's commands.

You don't take dogs, no matter the age, that are not potty trained!
We puppy raise for Leader Dogs for the Blind. Our first puppy is guiding a woman in NC, our second one graduates Saturday, and we currently have a 6 month old.

We start taking them out at 6 weeks old. You have to socialize them within the first four months of life, so yes, they are not potty trained. That being said, we have strict rules and guidelines we follow. We watch the puppy like a hawk and if I have to carry the puppy out of a place to make sure they don't have an accident, I will. We avoid anywhere with carpet or any prolonged experiences until they are potty trained, preferring instead to stick with outdoor venues or indoors with hard floors that have easy exits.

I also carry a clean-up kit with me at all times just in case. I make my dog "park" before I go in. Our current dog hates to park in public and so I have had to adjust to her schedule, she will only go when she really needs to which makes me nervous, but she does not have accidents in public.

She always wears identification as a puppy in training and I carry an ID card in my "diaper bag." She has a mat she lays on when we are out and is not allowed on furniture, carts, etc. Our state protects dog in training, but I make sure she is not a nuisance. I have been asked by businesses to leave (against the law) and I respect that. Although I will call and explain the law to somebody later.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:42 PM   #26
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and we met one parent that was advocating for their 'trained' pit-bull to be allowed in the school, cause they have the right.
They actually do have the right, if the dog performs a task to assist a person with a disability. No limits on what breed of dog may be claimed as a service animal, powerful breed or not, but the ADA does at this time limit its definition of a service animal to dogs and miniature horses. So nobody under the ADA can claim a right to having a service cat, rat, ferret, snake, raccoon or monkey.

Quote:
Sorry, I meant why doesn't any manager at the store ask the two permissible questions about the purported "service" dog.
They likely know that anyone who is looking to get away with passing their pet off as a service dog will probably lie, and they are going to err on the side of not antagonizing their customers by "confronting" them.

I was interested in a case I read about awhile back regarding a school child with a disability who brought a service dog to school. The child had the right to bring the dog to classes, but under the law the owner has the responsibility of caring for the animal, and as the child was incapable of doing it himself the mother was having to come to the school to take the dog for potty breaks and feed it. She wanted the school district to provide a school employee who would take care of the dog while her child was in school. That was in a court somewhere.
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