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Old 07-23-2014, 09:50 PM   #1
disney david
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Fake service dogs a real problems

http://m.kesq.com/news/fake-service-...oblem/26743136
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Old 07-27-2014, 03:13 AM   #2
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I work for a large retail chain and people come in ALL THE TIME with dogs and puppies. No one is ever able to question the authenticity of the "service dog" even though a two-month old puppy is obviously NOT a service dog. These dogs are frequently carried around in the shopping cart...yes, the same shopping cart that you or I later use to carry our food/clothing purchases. And, yes, sometimes there are "potty" accidents in the store.
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:12 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by gericoronado View Post
I work for a large retail chain and people come in ALL THE TIME with dogs and puppies. No one is ever able to question the authenticity of the "service dog" even though a two-month old puppy is obviously NOT a service dog. These dogs are frequently carried around in the shopping cart...yes, the same shopping cart that you or I later use to carry our food/clothing purchases. And, yes, sometimes there are "potty" accidents in the store.
But a puppy may be a service dog in training. Depending on your state law, a puppy in training has the same accessibility rights as a fully trained service dog. That is how they learn how to behave in public.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:38 PM   #4
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But a puppy may be a service dog in training. Depending on your state law, a puppy in training has the same accessibility rights as a fully trained service dog. That is how they learn how to behave in public.
They might be.
Lets be realistic though, they probably aren't and that hurts the credibility of true service dogs and dogs in training. I find it gross that people assume we all welcome the dander, saliva and potty droppings of their toy dogs on our new goods because they don't want to separate from their pet for a trip to the store.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:17 PM   #5
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But a puppy may be a service dog in training. Depending on your state law, a puppy in training has the same accessibility rights as a fully trained service dog. That is how they learn how to behave in public.
A good friend here trains dogs, and 'puppies' have to be a certain age and have a certain amount of training 'behind the scenes' to take out in public to 'train'. They 'must' be obedient to all the trainer's commands.

You don't take dogs, no matter the age, that are not potty trained!
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:04 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by gericoronado View Post
I work for a large retail chain and people come in ALL THE TIME with dogs and puppies. No one is ever able to question the authenticity of the "service dog" even though a two-month old puppy is obviously NOT a service dog. These dogs are frequently carried around in the shopping cart...yes, the same shopping cart that you or I later use to carry our food/clothing purchases. And, yes, sometimes there are "potty" accidents in the store.
Why not?
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:12 PM   #7
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Why not?
Because you don't want to habituate a dog to go potty while they are working. It is the same reason you don't play with or pet a service dog while they are on duty. When they are working they are only working.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:31 PM   #8
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We see "service animals" very frequently where I work in Vegas, our policy is to ignore them and only notify security if the dog is acting aggressively, barking, or relieving itself (all things a real service dog is trained not to do). There are so many different service animals for so many different conditions you just can't tell by looking at the animal or the owner if it's real or not, it's not worth risking a 6 figure fine on a gut feeling.
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Old 10-27-2014, 12:56 AM   #9
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There are so many different service animals for so many different conditions you just can't tell by looking at the animal or the owner if it's real or not, it's not worth risking a 6 figure fine on a gut feeling.
Well, not really...A business can, according to COSTCO v Grill legally ask a person three questions to determine if their dog is a Service Dog:

1. Is that a Service Dog, as defined by the ADA?
2. Are you disabled, as defined by the ADA?
3. What is the dog individually trained to do to mitigate your disability?

These questions were designed by the court specifically to assist businesses in weeding out Service Dog impostors and it is up to the businesses, with the assistance of their legal advisors, to construct a strategy for their employees to follow to protect the business and their customers from any improper, undesirable, or dangerous activities the "service animal" might engage in.

It is also important for businesses to understand the difference between Emotional Support Animals, which are untrained "cuddlesome anxiety relievers" and whose handlers have NO public access rights except those that are specifically accorded them by the specific business they are visiting on the specific day they are there with their Emotional Support Animals.) It is also important to note that a Service Dog has NO rights itself. It is the right of a properly defined person with a disability to access public spaces when using a properly defined service dog. If a dog misbehaves it is legal for the business to ask the handler to remove it from the premises. The dog has no rights.
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Old 10-27-2014, 01:10 AM   #10
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Well, not really...A business can, according to COSTCO v Grill legally ask a person three questions to determine if their dog is a Service Dog:

1. Is that a Service Dog, as defined by the ADA?
2. Are you disabled, as defined by the ADA?
3. What is the dog individually trained to do to mitigate your disability?

These questions were designed by the court specifically to assist businesses in weeding out Service Dog impostors and it is up to the businesses, with the assistance of their legal advisors, to construct a strategy for their employees to follow to protect the business and their customers from any improper, undesirable, or dangerous activities the "service animal" might engage in.

It is also important for businesses to understand the difference between Emotional Support Animals, which are untrained "cuddlesome anxiety relievers" and whose handlers have NO public access rights except those that are specifically accorded them by the specific business they are visiting on the specific day they are there with their Emotional Support Animals.) It is also important to note that a Service Dog has NO rights itself. It is the right of a properly defined person with a disability to access public spaces when using a properly defined service dog. If a dog misbehaves it is legal for the business to ask the handler to remove it from the premises. The dog has no rights.
The is quite right, there are ways for businesses to handle the posers. But the problem is they are so afraid of getting sued that they don't do what they should.
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Old 10-27-2014, 01:20 AM   #11
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The is quite right, there are ways for businesses to handle the posers. But the problem is they are so afraid of getting sued that they don't do what they should.
So true. I work for a large retailer and we welcome animals into our store, except in our restaurant; only service animals are welcome there for health code reasons. Because we cater to our customers we tend to not question them, even when their "service dog" is sitting on their table eating from their plate...
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Old 10-27-2014, 01:22 AM   #12
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The is quite right, there are ways for businesses to handle the posers. But the problem is they are so afraid of getting sued that they don't do what they should.
This is definitely the issue. I have worked at 3 different places where we came in contact with lots of service dogs and all of them said unless the dog is tearing things up, having accidents, unkept or aggressive don't bother.

One thing I find interesting is every person I've met with a real service dog says they would gladly prove their dogs skills to a license board if it meant keeping the fakes down. Many of the service dog owners and trainers I've come in contact with say the fakes hurt them as well and having no license board or review means a lot of people in meed are being conned the biggest one right now being our soldiers battling PTSD. A PTSD dog takes a lot of training and some places are claiming they can find a dog and place it in under a month.

There is a big issue here in NYC of doctors writing fake prescriptions for emotional support dogs because they are protected for housing situations (only housing though not work or health code etc). I know several people that have had them written so they new landlord couldn't refuse their dog even though their lease said no dogs.
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Old 10-27-2014, 01:49 AM   #13
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This is definitely the issue. I have worked at 3 different places where we came in contact with lots of service dogs and all of them said unless the dog is tearing things up, having accidents, unkept or aggressive don't bother.

One thing I find interesting is every person I've met with a real service dog says they would gladly prove their dogs skills to a license board if it meant keeping the fakes down. Many of the service dog owners and trainers I've come in contact with say the fakes hurt them as well and having no license board or review means a lot of people in meed are being conned the biggest one right now being our soldiers battling PTSD. A PTSD dog takes a lot of training and some places are claiming they can find a dog and place it in under a month.

There is a big issue here in NYC of doctors writing fake prescriptions for emotional support dogs because they are protected for housing situations (only housing though not work or health code etc). I know several people that have had them written so they new landlord couldn't refuse their dog even though their lease said no dogs.
There would be issues with a licensing board, such as fees to do so when many people who truly do need service animals couldn't afford the fees.

As for PTSD dogs, it depends on the circumstances, I know some people with PTSD (not from the military, but some very traumatic life experiences) that have been able to get a service dog fairly quickly that met their needs.

As for writing fake prescriptions, they should be reported to the medical board and have their licenses to practice medicine revoked.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:17 AM   #14
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There would be issues with a licensing board, such as fees to do so when many people who truly do need service animals couldn't afford the fees. As for PTSD dogs, it depends on the circumstances, I know some people with PTSD (not from the military, but some very traumatic life experiences) that have been able to get a service dog fairly quickly that met their needs. As for writing fake prescriptions, they should be reported to the medical board and have their licenses to practice medicine revoked.
I always hear the money debate but if you want a handicap parking placard most states charge for that unless you can prove hardship. It is usually about $5. Why can we charge for those but not a service dog license? NY actually has a license but federal law trumps state law so not everyone gets one. I have worked with about 5 people who got the license even though they didn't need one because it proved their dog was legit.

On the PTSD dog thing I don't personally believe 6 weeks is enough training. I've seen it for other service dogs as well and there is no way you can fully train a dog to be a good canine citizen and service dog in that time. Most service dogs have been in training their whole first year of life and then go through another year of job based training. That is why the more reputable service dog trainers have waitlists. I only have limited experience in training service dogs but unless your friends got dogs that a trainer was already working with I find it hard to believe they trained them for the long hours with out potty breaks as well as noticing your friends cues for PTSD as well as whatever other task he may perform in such a short time.

with the doctor thing it seems like almost every doctor in NYC does it. What is required for an "emotional support" dog is so low that we have even been offered a prescription before. I refused it saying I don't have a disability that requires a dog I just have anxiety. It is like how they give Xanax out here like it is candy.
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Old 10-27-2014, 11:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videogal1 View Post
Well, not really...A business can, according to COSTCO v Grill legally ask a person three questions to determine if their dog is a Service Dog:

1. Is that a Service Dog, as defined by the ADA?
2. Are you disabled, as defined by the ADA?
3. What is the dog individually trained to do to mitigate your disability?

These questions were designed by the court specifically to assist businesses in weeding out Service Dog impostors and it is up to the businesses, with the assistance of their legal advisors, to construct a strategy for their employees to follow to protect the business and their customers from any improper, undesirable, or dangerous activities the "service animal" might engage in.

It is also important for businesses to understand the difference between Emotional Support Animals, which are untrained "cuddlesome anxiety relievers" and whose handlers have NO public access rights except those that are specifically accorded them by the specific business they are visiting on the specific day they are there with their Emotional Support Animals.) It is also important to note that a Service Dog has NO rights itself. It is the right of a properly defined person with a disability to access public spaces when using a properly defined service dog. If a dog misbehaves it is legal for the business to ask the handler to remove it from the premises. The dog has no rights.
I can tell people that Walmart asks those 3 questions every single time we bring DD's Service Dog in.
He is a black Lab, wearing a red Service Dog vest and DD is in a wheelchair. So, it is pretty obvious that she is disabled and he belongs with her.
If more businesses asked, and more actually 'did' something with the dogs that are misbehaving, there would be less people pawning off fake ones.

As this poster noted, the dog has no rights and the person with a disability doesn't have the right to use the dog in that setting if the dog is not under control, is not house trained or is aggressive.
Under the ADA, a Service Dog is basically just another adaptive device.
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