DVC RESALES
DVC RESALES

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Old 07-03-2014, 05:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by StitchBuddy View Post
Thanks for answering my question! I am thinking we will buy at Animal Kingdom Lodge or Boardwalk. We haven't stayed at either one, but I like what they have offer. us it seems difficult to get them at the 7 month mark. We have stayed at Old Key West and we are staying at Saratoga Springs this August. We will buy resale, because we only intend to use it at Disney resorts. We should have done this a long time ago! We have been to WDW 10 times, my DD is 17, but we still enjoy it and hope to take grandchildren some day. In the mean time we can just go and enjoy all the different experiences Disney has to offer.
Obviously every situation is different but I'd suggest you consider how you'll use the points. IMO it's more about where you'll generally stay and cost than simply where you own. If you'll stay at BWV most trips, esp if looking at standard or BW view, then I'd definitely suggest buying there. The same cannot be said for AKV unless one is focused on the concierge option routinely. Even for value rooms, I do not feel buying AKV is the best choice for most people and here's why. If one bought SSR, there's almost certain availability at AKV in standard view at 7 months out into perpetuity. And in that situation SSR will be around the same or a little cheaper than AKV when you look at all parameters appropriately even buying the extra points at SSR over the costs of a value at AKV. Then every time you use points for something else, you gain extra value by owning SSR over AKV. Also consider that the dues for AKV and BWV are among the highest in the system. At least for BWV you potentially get something for the commitment, the same cannot be said for AKV other than the remote possibility of concierge for those that care for it.

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Originally Posted by Andrew015 View Post
Bill,

Normally I always agree with your posts and find your advice to new potential DVC buyers to be spot-on. But I disagree with this advice. Generally speaking, SSR is a "safe buy", for a few reasons. First and foremost, SSR is a newer resort with an extended expiration date as compared to some of the older resorts, and it is reasonably priced as compared to others. For those that "don't care where they stay" or simply love SSR, it is probably the best resort to own at. However, the OP hasn't indicated either of the above, and as a result, I would not give such advice. If the OP buys SSR and decides that she and/or her hubby does not like the resort after all, then they are "stuck" without an 11-month booking window at a resort that they would much prefer to stay at. SSR typically always has availability well within the 7-month window, so unless you love SSR or simply don't care where you stay, then there's not much sense in making that your home resort.

Again, I feel the most prudent approach for the OP is to try and norrow down the resorts that they like the most, or at least "think" they will like the most, then book 1-2 trips via renting from a reputable re-seller. This approach will help to reaffirm that DVC is the right fit, and more importantly, to see if they like the resorts that they have chosen. If all systems are a "go", then start the search process for the right contract.
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The idea behind Bill's advice is that the transaction costs of purchasing and selling SSR are roughly equivalent to renting points for a normal reservation.

For a 160 point contract, you're looking at $400 in closing costs, $800 in carrying costs (maintenance fees), and, if you decide to sell, $1,100 in commissions. That's $2,300 to purchase and sell the contract. Renting 160 points would cost you $2,240 at $14 per point.

So, worst case, if you hate DVC or decide you want to purchase a different resort, you're out roughly $60 and the opportunity cost from having ~$11,000 tied up for a year. Best case, you love SSR, or you're happy with seven-month availability, and you saved the expense of renting.

Since I assume anyone interested in purchasing is going to have the cash available, I think Bill's advice is great.
We've had this discussion recently. I believe that waiting and making a better decision far outweighs any benefit of buying/using now. You have to consider that buying the wrong resort has potential costs and consequences including maint fees, that buying a higher cost resort as a poor choice is far more costly than underbuying at say SSR. Taking more time also allows looking for a better priced and better situated contract as well as likely leading to a better decision. Still, eventually one has to fish or cut bait so every situation is different and incorporates personal nuances that are almost impossible to discuss here. Most people don't even know themselves at this point well enough to factor in all variables. Regardless, even if one makes exactly the same decision now vs a yr from now and rents once equivalent to a years worth of points, there's no real savings even all else being equal but there is significant risk.

Bill can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he's made 2 purchases thinking they were great that ended up not being the great choices he though they would be. I say that not to pick on him but to say that even those of us who are well versed can't control/predict all variables. Plus things change over time. Its certainly better to underbuy with SSR than overbuy. However, it's rarely a good choice to sell and re-buy from a financial standpoint so one needs to be as certain as possible on the front end.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:07 PM   #17
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The idea behind Bill's advice is that the transaction costs of purchasing and selling SSR are roughly equivalent to renting points for a normal reservation.

For a 160 point contract, you're looking at $400 in closing costs, $800 in carrying costs (maintenance fees), and, if you decide to sell, $1,100 in commissions. That's $2,300 to purchase and sell the contract. Renting 160 points would cost you $2,240 at $14 per point.

So, worst case, if you hate DVC or decide you want to purchase a different resort, you're out roughly $60 and the opportunity cost from having ~$11,000 tied up for a year. Best case, you love SSR, or you're happy with seven-month availability, and you saved the expense of renting.

Since I assume anyone interested in purchasing is going to have the cash available, I think Bill's advice is great.
I don't disptute any of the math, but allow me to ask what might be a stupid question... If the cost works out to be about the same, then why in God's name would anyone want to go through the hassle of buying SSR via resale, which involves searching for the right contract, making an offer, back & forth negotiations with the seller, hoping and praying to pass ROFR, waiting for points to be uploaded, and all of the associated paperwork that goes along with it, all of which can take tens of hours of your personal time and months to accomplish...... Not to mention going through the SAME process all over again when selling... If you can simply call up David's Vacation Rentals and presumably have rental points in a week.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:18 PM   #18
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I don't disptute any of the math, but allow me to ask what might be a stupid question... If the cost works out to be about the same, then why in God's name would anyone want to go through the hassle of buying SSR via resale, which involves searching for the right contract, making an offer, back & forth negotiations with the seller, hoping and praying to pass ROFR, waiting for points to be uploaded, and all of the associated paperwork that goes along with it, all of which can take tens of hours of your personal time and months to accomplish...... Not to mention going through the SAME process all over again when selling... If you can simply call up David's Vacation Rentals and presumably have rental points in a week.
It works out the same if you are doing it ONCE. If you are going to keep the DVC, then it is cheaper to own than rent. Meaning if you want to "try out" DVC, renting points once costs the same as buying and selling it once.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:10 PM   #19
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It works out the same if you are doing it ONCE. If you are going to keep the DVC, then it is cheaper to own than rent. Meaning if you want to "try out" DVC, renting points once costs the same as buying and selling it once.
That's true best case scenario for a good choice made resale used only for DVC options compared to renting DVC from David's assuming no lost points and not financing. Any variation from this situation quickly reduces the value and fairly quickly moves the needle into the red. IMO one needs a 20% real savings to justify owning (that's compared to what one would have spent, not the almost meaningless comparison to rack rates for DVC) or a 20% additional value that is truly beneficial to the buyer and desired. That includes accounting for the time value of money in the process. It also assumes that DVC makes sense otherwise.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:12 PM   #20
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Bill can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he's made 2 purchases thinking they were great that ended up not being the great choices he though they would be. I say that not to pick on him but to say that even those of us who are well versed can't control/predict all variables. Plus things change over time. Its certainly better to underbuy with SSR than overbuy. However, it's rarely a good choice to sell and re-buy from a financial standpoint so one needs to be as certain as possible on the front end.
Even well versed people can get caught up in Disney's spell and end up buying when we probably shouldn't. That's why I keep repeating the same suggestions over and over for the newbies just joining us.

BLT wasn't our best purchase but heck, we got a "free 7 day cruise" out of the deal. We also have tired of AKV just because.

My "buy SSR" position is because a rental or two can cost as much as the buying and selling fees plus you are an owner with the pros and cons of hands on ownership. You can feel how DVC works, wait on hold for 40 minutes, stay at all of the resorts, experience availability, room condition, DVC politics, the room views and locations.

The alterative is that you buy thinking that you have made a good choice of resorts and feeling bad later because the family likes a different resort better and you find it challenging to book there.

Spending thousands and thousands of dollars on DVC and Disney vacations and not staying where and when you want really bugs me. Life is too short not to get what you want on vacations and using wait lists, praying that availability will happen, calling and checking the website every day isn't what I call fun.

That's why I say buy where you love to stay, book at 11 months and be happy!

Bill

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Old 07-03-2014, 07:27 PM   #21
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I haven't read most of the replies, but I saw that you, OP, stated that you were thinking AKV or BWV. My personal opinion, as an owner of both, would be to go with BWV. Here is why:
1- smaller resort and tougher to book at 7 month window (can get AKV at 7 months out pretty easily)
2- can walk to 2 parks
3- can save points by booking standard view rooms (can save at AKV too, by booking value rooms, but AKV value rooms are smaller than standard/savannah view rooms)
4- since your DD is older, you and DH may soon be taking trips w/out DD and may want to do F&W...BWV is tough to book for F&W
5- BWV seems to sell quicker (especially the smaller contracts)

One negative is the expiration date. AKV goes longer, if that matters to you.
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:07 PM   #22
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Even well versed people can get caught up in Disney's spell and end up buying when we probably shouldn't. That's why I keep repeating the same suggestions over and over for the newbies just joining us.

Agreed, and part of my point. It's one of the reasons I get a chuckle when newbies are so sure and headstrong about choices (often poor ones), I call it the instant expert syndrome. Even the most seasoned owner learns new things and looks at things differently over time. IMO controlling risk is even more important than potential savings and value though all have to be balanced.
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:23 PM   #23
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That's true best case scenario for a good choice made resale used only for DVC options compared to renting DVC from David's assuming no lost points and not financing. Any variation from this situation quickly reduces the value and fairly quickly moves the needle into the red. IMO one needs a 20% real savings to justify owning (that's compared to what one would have spent, not the almost meaningless comparison to rack rates for DVC) or a 20% additional value that is truly beneficial to the buyer and desired. That includes accounting for the time value of money in the process. It also assumes that DVC makes sense otherwise.
I was really just referring to the idea of paying to rent points, or buying DVC and selling it for just one trip. Not so much the idea of owning DVC itself. Technically, they will both "cost" around the same in the end. And yes, I realize there are risks.
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:50 PM   #24
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Again, thanks for all the information. We have looked into purchasing before through Disney, but just weren't ready to spend the money. Now we feel we are, we will pay cash. The money is not an issue, but that being said, we don't want rush in and buy at the "wrong" resort for us. Also, if something should change in the future, it is always best to keep in mind the unfortunate possibliliy or reselling it. I would never buy a house for example, without thinkng if I cold easily resell it, if I needed too. Not that you can compare the two. I am glad to hear it is easy to get AKL at the 7 months out. Fees are also a good thing to think about. Maybe I will look more closely at SSR and OKW. Thanks for your input!
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:55 PM   #25
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Again, thanks for all the information. We have looked into purchasing before through Disney, but just weren't ready to spend the money. Now we feel we are, we will pay cash. The money is not an issue, but that being said, we don't want rush in and buy at the "wrong" resort for us. Also, if something should change in the future, it is always best to keep in mind the unfortunate possibliliy or reselling it. I would never buy a house for example, without thinkng if I cold easily resell it, if I needed too. Not that you can compare the two. I am glad to hear it is easy to get AKL at the 7 months out. Fees are also a good thing to think about. Maybe I will look more closely at SSR and OKW. Thanks for your input!
If you want to own DVC, I don't think you can go wrong starting with a smallish SSR contract. If you find a resort you love and have trouble getting, you can always add on there.
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Old 07-04-2014, 07:13 AM   #26
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There is another option too.

The suggestions of rent or start with SSR are good ideas. We are in a trial period ourselves. We have pondered DVC for almost 20 years but didn't want to tie up a bunch of money so we waited until recently to try it out. Since we are lifetime Disney goers we know exactly what resort(s) we wanted and why so here is what we did. We bought a tiny contract resale (50 points) at BWV for our yearly January trip. This wasn't too costly and it got our family of 4 nearly $600 off season passes. We go for a longer trip in May each year and we do that the old fashioned way (but make use of our season passes). We are happy with the 50 points and how it is working and are in a wait and see mode on more points to cover our (yearly) May trip. I still struggle with tying up large sums of money a bit.

Here is what we know for certain from our experience so far:

1 - we picked the right resort as we have previously stayed at a bunch of resorts over the years
2 - due to the small purchase and relatively large season pass discount we are saving money and rapidly reaching the breakeven point
3 - the 11 month home resort booking advantage is necessary if you want the numbers to work in your favor

The only real advice I can give is to avoid making a decision on emotion (Disney makes this very hard). You can go to Disney as often as you want with or without DVC.

I would say that buying the small DVC contract has normalized the emotional component for us. We are DVC members (although barely ) so we're in the "club" and there isn't any emotional pull as we ponder more points. It is pure numbers.

After looking at this for a long time I have concluded the following - Buying into DVC resale might start saving you money in the 8-10 year time period if you maximize the benefits. In otherwords learn everything you can before jumping in. You can be certain that this is an "advantage Disney" situation on average.
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Old 07-04-2014, 07:32 AM   #27
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I was really just referring to the idea of paying to rent points, or buying DVC and selling it for just one trip. Not so much the idea of owning DVC itself. Technically, they will both "cost" around the same in the end. And yes, I realize there are risks.
So was I but adding the caveat that the assumption is DVC makes sense otherwise and giving some qualifications on who that might be. I agree with you that making a hasty decision just to get in the next trip is not a good idea but that's only IF DVC makes sense otherwise. If one assumes ALL else would be the same (# of points, home resort, UY, loaded contract) AND DVC would save that person money otherwise (often a big assumption when you account for all parameters), there is a small incremental cost even starting year one. My view is that in reality there really isn't a cost savings that early because the chances of meeting all of the criteria are almost zero, even for someone who has extensive experience with Disney stays over a number of years. I feel the added experience, info adds far more potential value than any minor single year savings. For many that means that not buying now or at all ends up being the best choice for any number of reasons. In addition, it's really not a savings (as you point out) but a controlled loss. Off property can be far cheaper still and for many, is the better option, esp for non DVC timeshares. However you get many that assume the DVC resort are better and that non DVC timeshares are always a bad option; both dramatically incorrect. Of course the two are not mutually exclusive, we're staying at SSR in Aug for two 2 BR units through exchange.
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Old 07-04-2014, 08:39 PM   #28
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Again, thanks for all the information. We have looked into purchasing before through Disney, but just weren't ready to spend the money. Now we feel we are, we will pay cash. The money is not an issue, but that being said, we don't want rush in and buy at the "wrong" resort for us. Also, if something should change in the future, it is always best to keep in mind the unfortunate possibliliy or reselling it. I would never buy a house for example, without thinkng if I cold easily resell it, if I needed too. Not that you can compare the two. I am glad to hear it is easy to get AKL at the 7 months out. Fees are also a good thing to think about. Maybe I will look more closely at SSR and OKW. Thanks for your input!
Buying and selling real estate these days is much more transparent than it used to be, you can easily find the selling price of every house in a neighborhood for the last several years by a few simple searches. You can also see every house for sale and the asking price for it. From that data you can arrive at an informed decision. DVC resales don't yet have that transparency. You can easily locate all DVC contracts on the market and compare which resorts have more offerings, you can get a feeling for actual sales prices by comparing asking prices to some (but not all) actual sales prices by looking @ dis and other sites ROFR/sold threads - but the sold numbers are 2 or more months old because of the ROFR & closing delays. SSR used to be a lot cheaper - but lately it seems those prices are trending up, so it's important to filter the advice you get through the lens of today's resale market, which may be different than last year.
Even assuming you had all the data you have w/ real estate you still don't have access to another important variable - which is how useful are those points to you - to me a significant question is when do you want to go? 7/11 availability is a nice abstract concept helpful if you go at low demand times of year but meaningless if you always go at a certain time of year and can't get what you want at 7 months and you bought the cheapest points planning on using them elsewhere at 7 months.
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