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Old 01-16-2014, 09:14 AM   #16
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And therein lies the core problem.

Avatar was basically a C-grade sci-fi movie...with absolutely supreme 3D effects. The latter were proof of concept, a great demonstration of the awesome computing powers used to create them.

But the script was simplistic and weak (basically a Sci-fi ripoff of Dancing with Wolves) with forgettable characters.

But Avatar fans completely ignore all that and equate CPU cycles with movie quality.
And Citizen Kane would make a crappy theme park land. What's your point?

Generally speaking, great films don't make great theme park lands. Great, immersive, compelling environments make great theme park lands.

Complex stories make awful theme park attractions (which is why I hope the Lord of the Rings/Disney rumors die - and I love the Tolkein books). Great theme park attractions tell simple stories - ones in which theme park guests can be immersed for a few minutes and walk away having "gotten it." Theme parks tell much of their story with atmosphere, architecture, lighting, music - things other than rides and "CPU cycles." THAT is where Cameron and Disney Imagineering working together will excel, and that is why there's every reason to believe that Pandora will be a great addition to Disney's Animal Kingdom.
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Old 01-16-2014, 11:04 AM   #17
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And Citizen Kane would make a crappy theme park land. What's your point?

Generally speaking, great films don't make great theme park lands. Great, immersive, compelling environments make great theme park lands.

Complex stories make awful theme park attractions (which is why I hope the Lord of the Rings/Disney rumors die - and I love the Tolkein books). Great theme park attractions tell simple stories - ones in which theme park guests can be immersed for a few minutes and walk away having "gotten it." Theme parks tell much of their story with atmosphere, architecture, lighting, music - things other than rides and "CPU cycles." THAT is where Cameron and Disney Imagineering working together will excel, and that is why there's every reason to believe that Pandora will be a great addition to Disney's Animal Kingdom.
Exactly!
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:34 PM   #18
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And Citizen Kane would make a crappy theme park land. What's your point? Generally speaking, great films don't make great theme park lands. Great, immersive, compelling environments make great theme park lands. Complex stories make awful theme park attractions (which is why I hope the Lord of the Rings/Disney rumors die - and I love the Tolkein books). Great theme park attractions tell simple stories - ones in which theme park guests can be immersed for a few minutes and walk away having "gotten it." Theme parks tell much of their story with atmosphere, architecture, lighting, music - things other than rides and "CPU cycles." THAT is where Cameron and Disney Imagineering working together will excel, and that is why there's every reason to believe that Pandora will be a great addition to Disney's Animal Kingdom.
agreed 100% you need that immersive environment without it your not going to have a successful theme park.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:07 PM   #19
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Generally speaking, great films don't make great theme park lands.
Memo to Mr. Iger: the jury has spoken. You must immediately close down Pinnochio's Daring Journey at DL, Star Tours at DL and WDW and Splash Mountain at both and Tokyo Sea. All are deeply flawed.

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Great, immersive, compelling environments make great theme park lands.
You imply films with decent scripts and characters and those with "immersive, compelling environments" are mutually exclusive. They aren't, and what you miss is character and narrative combined with compelling environment are what make truly great attractions and lands. That's why HP at Universal is the monster success it is. The ambience there has as much to do with the personas of the characters and the experiences they have had as it does the incredible gothic majesty of Hogwarts.

And what is clear is Avatar is the antithesis of a film offering character and narrative. Which is what led to it ending up on a disproportionate number of "most overrated movies" lists. Here are a few choice examples:

http://moviechopshop.com/2009/12/31/...f-2009-avatar/

http://www.dailyfunlists.com/most-ov...e-last-decade/

coed.com/2010/09/08/25-of-the-most-overrated-movies-of-all-time/

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Great theme park attractions tell simple stories - ones in which theme park guests can be immersed for a few minutes and walk away having "gotten it."
Help us out here: exactly what is the compelling "simple story" that visitors to Pandora-land are supposed to "get?" Oh, we know - it's about conservation of blue cat people. Save the Navi..........

Last edited by Borishack; 01-16-2014 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:23 PM   #20
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Memo to Mr. Iger: the jury has spoken. You must immediately close down Pinnochio's Daring Journey at DL, Star Tours at DL and WDW and Splash Mountain at both and Tokyo Sea. All are deeply flawed. You imply films with decent scripts and characters and those with "immersive, compelling environments" are mutually exclusive. They aren't, and what you miss is character and narrative combined with compelling environment are what make truly great attractions and lands. That's why HP at Universal is the monster success it is. The ambience there has as much to do with the personas of the characters and the experiences they have had as it does the incredible gothic majesty of Hogwarts. And what is clear is Avatar is the antithesis of a film offering character and narrative. Which is what led to ending up on many "most overrated movies" lists: http://moviechopshop.com/2009/12/31/...f-2009-avatar/ http://www.dailyfunlists.com/most-ov...e-last-decade/ coed.com/2010/09/08/25-of-the-most-overrated-movies-of-all-time/ Help us out here: exactly what is the compelling "simple story" that visitors to Pandora-land are supposed to "get?" Oh, we know - it's about conservation of blue cat people. Save the Navi..........
you really like to quote websites I've never heard of any of those so obviously they aren't very popular. Splash mountain is a disney classic. Depending on what they do with Star Wars there is potential for a star tours upgrade. The story is conservation of wildlife they just used the made up Navi people but the technology behind the movie and the great detail work in the film can make a terrific land. Why do you have no hope in disney they still can do great things and I think great things will come with avatar in AK. All you do is bash avatar yes it wasn't a good movie but that doesn't mean it can't be a good land.
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:47 PM   #21
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you really like to quote websites I've never heard of so obviously they aren't very popular
Actually, they are quite popular with the inquisitive and discerning.

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Splash mountain is a disney classic.
No, it's a log flume ride based on a classic film Disney made in 1946 named Song of the South. You should read up on it below and expand your horizons on an underappreciated work of cinema. And I assure the site is really, really "popular!"

http://www.songofthesouth.net/index.php

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Depending on what they do with Star Wars
Well, not what, if. All the talk here of new Star wars attractions or lands is just speculative.

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The story is conservation of wildlife
Actually the climax of the film wasn't about conservation. Instead, Cameron gave us a massive, bloodthirsty "let's get even" fest, Specifically, a huge battle featuring the locals kicking the holy-you-know-what out the what sure looked like the American military. Yep, lots of peace and love all around that left audiences with a big warm, fuzzy "save-the-land" feeling.



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but the technology behind the movie and the great detail work in the film can make a terrific land.
Sigh...as observed earlier, this is all about equating CPU cycles with substance.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:30 PM   #22
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Actually, they are quite popular with the inquisitive and discerning. No, it's a log flume ride based on a classic film Disney made in 1946 named Song of the South. You should read up on it below and expand your horizons on an underappreciated work of cinema. And I assure the site is really, really "popular!" http://www.songofthesouth.net/index.php Well, not what, if. All the talk here of new Star wars attractions or lands is just speculative. Actually the climax of the film wasn't about conservation. Instead, Cameron gave us a massive, bloodthirsty "let's get even" fest, Specifically, a huge battle featuring the locals kicking the holy-you-know-what out the what sure looked like the American military. Yep, lots of peace and love all around that left audiences with a big warm, fuzzy "save-the-land" feeling. Sigh...as observed earlier, this is all about equating CPU cycles with substance.
I know what the song of the south is I have seen it but the ride itself is a disney classic. The movie sucked yes we agree on that but that's not the point the immersive ness of the 3D will make for a good land if done right. I still don't understand why you are doubting what disney can do. They are a very successful company far more successful than universal.
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:17 PM   #23
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Actually, they are quite popular with the inquisitive and discerning.
"Popular" movie websites are a dime a dozen and inquisitive and discerning is open to interpretation! Those may be popular but so are a bunch of conspiracy and other crazy sites. They mean nothing. Are there people out there that agree with you? Without a doubt. You can always find a large number of people that hate anything popular. Often just because it is popular.

That movie that was one of the most successful and was nominated for 6 Oscars.

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No, it's a log flume ride based on a classic film Disney made in 1946 named Song of the South. You should read up on it below and expand your horizons on an underappreciated work of cinema. And I assure the site is really, really "popular!"

http://www.songofthesouth.net/index.php
The only point that matters is that Song of the south is NO classic, and the great majority of people that love the ride either have never heard about it or know about it only vaguely. Point made. The movie had a great set of simple characters in a nice setting that was perfect for a flume ride. THAT SIMPLE!

Does that movie have some aspect that will work with what Disney wants to do? Yes for Song of the South, Y-E-SSSSS for Avatar!! THAT SIMPLE.

[QUOTE=Borishack;50493604]Actually the climax of the film wasn't about conservation. Instead, Cameron gave us a massive, bloodthirsty "let's get even" fest, Specifically, a huge battle featuring the locals kicking the holy-you-know-what out the what sure looked like the American military. Yep, lots of peace and love all around that left audiences with a big warm, fuzzy "save-the-land" feeling.

Sigh...as observed earlier, this is all about equating CPU cycles with substance.

Boy those colored glasses you wear are far thicker than I thought. You miss the most obvious things and can see neither the forest nor the trees. The whole ending of Avatar was about saving the tree of life, the Navi, and all life on the planet as it was connected to the tree. You can't get more conservationist than that.

Nothing has anything to do with CPU cycles.
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:25 PM   #24
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"Popular" movie websites are a dime a dozen and inquisitive and discerning is open to interpretation! Those may be popular but so are a bunch of conspiracy and other crazy sites. They mean nothing. Are there people out there that agree with you? Without a doubt. You can always find a large number of people that hate anything popular. Often just because it is popular. That movie that was one of the most successful and was nominated for 6 Oscars. The only point that matters is that Song of the south is NO classic, and the great majority of people that love the ride either have never heard about it or know about it only vaguely. Point made. The movie had a great set of simple characters in a nice setting that was perfect for a flume ride. THAT SIMPLE! Does that movie have some aspect that will work with what Disney wants to do? Yes for Song of the South, Y-E-SSSSS for Avatar!! THAT SIMPLE.
well said completely agree.
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:41 PM   #25
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Memo to Mr. Iger: the jury has spoken. You must immediately close down Pinnochio's Daring Journey at DL, Star Tours at DL and WDW and Splash Mountain at both and Tokyo Sea. All are deeply flawed.
Song of the South is unknown to all but a few fans. So your point is wrong. And the point he made doesn't lead here anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Borishack View Post
You imply films with decent scripts and characters and those with "immersive, compelling environments" are mutually exclusive. They aren't, and what you miss is character and narrative combined with compelling environment are what make truly great attractions and lands. That's why HP at Universal is the monster success it is. The ambience there has as much to do with the personas of the characters and the experiences they have had as it does the incredible gothic majesty of Hogwarts.
Nobody implied that at all. Both is a bonus, but only one is necessary. Complex character and narrative isn't necessary either.

HP isn't great because of character or compelling narrative. There is no character or character development at all. And, I don't remember much of a narrative, just flying around experiencing several parts of HP world and being chased by a dragon. Anybody could enjoy that ride without having a clue who HP is or anything else about the story. The fact that it is connected to a popular property is gravy.

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And what is clear is Avatar is the antithesis of a film offering character and narrative. Which is what led to it ending up on a disproportionate number of "most overrated movies" lists. Here are a few choice examples:

Help us out here: exactly what is the compelling "simple story" that visitors to Pandora-land are supposed to "get?" Oh, we know - it's about conservation of blue cat people. Save the Navi..........
Dances with wolves or Dances with Smurfs, it doesn't matter. The idea of the simple people close to nature against the evil users of nature is old as the hills and very popular. Standing up for the beautiful and amazing environment is also a very popular simple storyline.
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:02 PM   #26
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"Popular" movie websites are a dime a dozen and inquisitive and discerning is open to interpretation!
It doesn't take much interpretation to understand the critiques of Avatar are inherently more articulate and thought out than the generic "it was great 3D and made a lot of money" blather from the Avatar "fans." Example of the former (from a 2009 assessment):

""An early red flag I had about Avatar occurred when watching James Cameron on “60 Minutes” a few weeks ago. Morley Safer was asking Cameron about the design of the Na’vi and he was noting their tails. “Why tails?” he asked James. A pretty softball kind of question, but his immediate reply alarmed me. James Cameron sort of half-smiled and said with boyish glee “Well, tails are cool!”

And that kind of “Well (fill in the blank) is cool!" mindset seems to be the only thing that was driving him during the entire process of making Avatar and it just doesn’t cut it for the subject matter he wishes to explore. It seems like all of his best ideas started and stopped at “Well, that’s cool!”


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:The only point that matters is that Song of the south is NO classic
The only point that really matters is the large, large universe out there that completely disagrees with that sort of throw-away revsionist opinion. Despite the fact Disney has tried to muzzle awareness of and interest in the movie, the market in copies ripped from the high res Japanese laser disc Disney released in the 80s is thriving.

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the great majority of people that love the ride
Love is overdoing it, they like the ride less because of any perceived cogent theme and more because it's a very elaborate version of what you can get at any Six Flags and has thrill ride type drop at the end. Or stated differently, since it's Disney, yeah, they expect it to have some sort of theming, even if they're not clear on exactly what it represents. I agree most (not all, most) have no idea or only a general idea of the film it is based on. However, if you have paid attention to reviews of it, you will notice they segment by age: anyone in their late 50s or older definitely knows what Splash Mountain is based on, because they are old enough to have been a kid when the movie was still in theatrical re-release.

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The whole ending of Avatar was about saving the tree of life, the Navi, and all life on the planet as it was connected to the tree.
Oh, please....don't give us the “we are the world” collective angle. The climax of Avatar features "bad guys" who are simplistically evil being slaughtered by "good guys" - that see fit to kill them all at the drop of a hat. All presented in one of the most outrageous displays of gleeful cinematic savagery ever put up on the big screen.

Which deflates your "connect to nature" spin. One would think a movie with such an obviously pacifist ideology wouldn’t be so proud to bask in the thrilling glorification of war-like violence.

But Cameron couldn't restrain himself.
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Old 01-16-2014, 11:42 PM   #27
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It doesn't take much interpretation to understand the critiques of Avatar are inherently more articulate and thought out than the generic "it was great 3D and made a lot of money" blather from the Avatar "fans." Example of the former (from a 2009 assessment): ""An early red flag I had about Avatar occurred when watching James Cameron on “60 Minutes” a few weeks ago. Morley Safer was asking Cameron about the design of the Na’vi and he was noting their tails. “Why tails?” he asked James. A pretty softball kind of question, but his immediate reply alarmed me. James Cameron sort of half-smiled and said with boyish glee “Well, tails are cool!” And that kind of “Well (fill in the blank) is cool!" mindset seems to be the only thing that was driving him during the entire process of making Avatar and it just doesn’t cut it for the subject matter he wishes to explore. It seems like all of his best ideas started and stopped at “Well, that’s cool!” The only point that really matters is the large, large universe out there that completely disagrees with that sort of throw-away revsionist opinion. Despite the fact Disney has tried to muzzle awareness of and interest in the movie, the market in copies ripped from the high res Japanese laser disc Disney released in the 80s is thriving. Love is overdoing it, they like the ride less because of any perceived cogent theme and more because it's a very elaborate version of what you can get at any Six Flags and has thrill ride type drop at the end. Or stated differently, since it's Disney, yeah, they expect it to have some sort of theming, even if they're not clear on exactly what it represents. I agree most (not all, most) have no idea or only a general idea of the film it is based on. However, if you have paid attention to reviews of it, you will notice they segment by age: anyone in their late 50s or older definitely knows what Splash Mountain is based on, because they are old enough to have been a kid when the movie was still in theatrical re-release. Oh, please....don't give us the “we are the world” collective angle. The climax of Avatar features "bad guys" who are simplistically evil being slaughtered by "good guys" - that see fit to kill them all at the drop of a hat. All presented in one of the most outrageous displays of gleeful cinematic savagery ever put up on the big screen. Which deflates your "connect to nature" spin. One would think a movie with such an obviously pacifist ideology wouldn’t be so proud to bask in the thrilling glorification of war-like violence. But Cameron couldn't restrain himself.
why don't you think avatar won't be good? Why don't you think Cameron is a good director? Why don't you think Avatarland or the sequels will happen. Anything someone says you come back with something negative I don't get it do you even like disney? Do you think they can do no good?
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Old 01-17-2014, 09:58 AM   #28
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:45 AM   #29
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why don't you think avatar won't be good? Why don't you think Cameron is a good director? Why don't you think Avatarland or the sequels will happen. Anything someone says you come back with something negative I don't get it do you even like disney? Do you think they can do no good?

like a broken record....

blah blah blah blah... Disney Sucks.... blah blah blah blah... Universal and Harry Potter is Amazing and the only future of theme park rides.... blah blah blah blah... Avatar is the worst movie EVER... blah blah blah blah... Disney Sucks..... blah blah blah blah... Universal and Harry Potter is Amazing and the only future of theme park rides.... blah blah blah blah... Avatar is the worst movie EVER... blah blah blah blah....

Don't like the park? then don't go!! It is a free country. The way some folks carry on about Avatar is like it is life and death... relax.... no one is going to force you to ride the new Avatar rides or even go to Animal Kingdom. You can stay at Universal and ride the Forbidden Journey to your heart's content. But enough already with the silly over the top negativity.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:24 AM   #30
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like a broken record.... blah blah blah blah... Disney Sucks.... blah blah blah blah... Universal and Harry Potter is Amazing and the only future of theme park rides.... blah blah blah blah... Avatar is the worst movie EVER... blah blah blah blah... Disney Sucks..... blah blah blah blah... Universal and Harry Potter is Amazing and the only future of theme park rides.... blah blah blah blah... Avatar is the worst movie EVER... blah blah blah blah.... Don't like the park? then don't go!! It is a free country. The way some folks carry on about Avatar is like it is life and death... relax.... no one is going to force you to ride the new Avatar rides or even go to Animal Kingdom. You can stay at Universal and ride the Forbidden Journey to your heart's content. But enough already with the silly over the top negativity.
exactly
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