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Old 12-16-2013, 10:51 AM   #46
tinks_1989
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Originally Posted by julieannboo View Post
see that rational doesnt really work because even if the whales were born there which some are - where did their parents come from and where their parents come from, etc? it still leds back to these whales at some point being taken from the ocean.
I understand what she is saying though. I think I was naive as well. You go and see all the animals the my rescue and feel sad for them and pleased seaworld is there to help these animals. Then I think I just expected that the whales were rescued too.

I also think I was a bit ignorant to the situation as well but I didn't want to think about it.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by julieannboo

see that rational doesnt really work because even if the whales were born there which some are - where did their parents come from and where their parents come from, etc?

it still leads back to these whales at some point being taken from the ocean.
Oh I know it was ignorance, I just don't think I had ever really thought about before it had been thrown in my face! And then I felt stupid lol. X
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:35 AM   #48
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By Paul Watson:

Lets Save Sea World!

What I would do if I could take over the management of Sea World

Commentary by Captain Paul Watson

There is an axiom in business that a company must adapt or die.

Sea World is in this position now. Awareness is changing and just as human slavery was tossed onto the dust heap of history so will the idea of enslaving marine mammals for purposes of entertainment.

Sea World is under a great deal of public pressure thanks to the film Black Fish and an ever-growing global movement to shut it down. Sea World is losing money. Performers like Bare Naked Ladies, Willie Nelson and Heart have cancelled their performances and some shareholders are already divesting themselves of their shares in anticipation of a dramatic fall in the value of those shares.

The public is becoming increasing horrified by the bloody slaughter of dolphins in Taiji Japan and the violent drives to capture dolphins to perform at aquariums and the slaughter of the ones not deemed desirable to exhibit to the public.

Sea World has said nothing in opposition to the dolphin killing or whaling while maintaining the myth that they “love” whales and dolphins.

The public is seeing through the charade and this does not bode well for Sea World.

Could Sea World close down?

Possibly, although Sea World is gambling that they will weather the controversy. The media and the public are notoriously fickle and what is a passionate public cause today, is often forgotten tomorrow.

But there has been a persistent anti-captivity movement for decades and it grows stronger each year and the film Black Fish has greatly increased the strength of this movement. That persistence will continue and it will get stronger every year.

Like any industry, Sea World must adapt or die.

Thus I believe it is inevitable that Sea World will be faced with closing its doors, certainly within the next decade.

I think it is time for new management and I’m quite willing to take the job. I think I can turn this downward trend around and in so doing I think I can breathe new life into this increasingly heartless institution.

More and more people want Sea World shut down but there are many with seemingly legitimate concerns about what will happen if it is shut down.

Some of the criticisms of the opponents of Sea World include.

1. Where do children go to see marine mammals? And what a shame it would be to close down an educational facility like Sea World.
2. Sea World rescues animals and provides care facilities for animals injured in the wild.
3. If Sea World closes what will happen to the captive animals?

With regard to the first criticism the answer is simple. Children can be educated about whales through film and they can see whales in the wild on whale watch trips. The price of a ticket to Sea World is not much different than the price of a ticket on a whale-watching vessel. But some have said that not everyone lives close to the sea and thus they do not have the opportunity to see whales in nature. The answer to that is if you can go to Sea World Orlando or Sea World San Diego, you can also go on a whale-watching trip. Both these facilities are near the sea. On a whale watch trip children can see whales behaving like whales do in their natural habitat. There is nothing educational about seeing whales jump through hoops or carrying a trainer around on their back. Sea World is not and never has been an educational facility. Sea World does not talk about the threats to the whales like whaling, pollution, over-fishing etc. Basically it all comes down to “hey boys and girls, do you know that Orcas are mammals just like you.” And the average kid already knows that. Presently Sea World appeals to stupidity and when it comes to ecology and the oceans, young people are much better educated now than when Sea World first opened their ticket booths. We need a Sea World that appeals to people genuinely concerned about saving our oceans

With regard to the second criticism. Yes, Sea World does rescue and care for stranded animals and this is a source for many of their display animals. What would happen if Sea World were not to do this? There are more non-profit marine mammal rescue centers than there are Sea World facilities and these organizations would be much more likely to receive more public and government funding without Sea World doing their collecting and sampling. I was on the beach in La Jolla, California when Sea World “rescued” a sea lion. I was not impressed. The “rescuers” were clearly hurting the animal but seemingly did not care until I introduced myself and they saw I had a camera. Suddenly they became much more gentle.

The last concern is probably the most important. What will happen to the animals if Sea World closes?

Sea World could euthanize them if the government granted them permits to do so, but that would create a **** storm of a public outcry.

They could release the ones that can be released but a great many cannot be released and the responsibility to care for them would belong to Sea World. After all they have made hundreds of millions of dollars in profits from these animals.

Sea World would have to maintain the facilities and to provide food and care to the animals they are obligated under the law to care for.

But there is an alternative whereby Sea World could survive. It may not be the money-making circus it is today but it could survive and function as a real educational facility with human entertainment instead of animal entertainment and most importantly it would be relevant.

This would allow Sea World to care for the animals they have and to care for animals they rescue.

They could give presentations on the importance of our oceans and on finding solutions to the threats to the survival of the oceans.

They could maintain the theme park like other theme parks. Whereas Universal Studios has Waterworld, Sea World could have a Captain Nemo theme show. There are many possibilities but it all comes down to shows that provide real education in addition to real entertainment.

The most popular and beloved circus on the planet is Cirque du Soleil. Why? Because they don’t exploit animals.

Sea World needs to take a lesson from Cirque du Soleil.

They can still have water tanks. For example there could be a vertical tank going down 300 metres where human free divers could be seen displaying their skills. Another pool could provide mermaids doing synchronized swimming. There could be a tank simulating the oceanic gyres with demonstrations of what can be done to solve the problem. There could be facilities for teaching diving.

There would be tanks for rescued animals where people can see caregivers rehabilitating stranded, sick or injured animals. The tanks would also contain the retired Orcas that can’t be released and they would swim about and trainers would interact with them in games that benefit the animals and keep them from being bored. They simply would not be forced to do things contrary to their nature.

If given a choice between watching animals doing silly tricks or seeing hands on efforts to save our oceans, I believe young people especially will be interested in dealing with real problems.

The new Sea World could have life size robotic whales and dolphins. It could have a wave machine swimming pool for surfing like Typhoon Lagoon at Disney World. Surfing demonstrations could be performed by the world’s greatest surfers.

There could be a Maori whale riding ride for children with a large robotic whale.

There could be a tank featuring old style hard-hat diving and demonstrations of the evolution of diving.

There could be breeding facilities for protecting endangered fishes and corals.

There could be a kelp forest.

There are many possibilities to provide a highly entertaining and educational facility in place of the slave circus non-educational travesty that Sea World is presently running today.

Sea World should be able to evolve and to transform into something awesome and relevant.

Will such a thing happen? Probably not. The executives at Sea World lack the vision to see and implement positive alternative approaches.

But one thing is for certain. The days of public tolerance for animal abuse are coming to an end and I firmly believe Sea World’s days are numbered – unless they adapt.

And if they don’t and they begin to lose money as the share-holders abandon the sinking ship and they will be faced with the dilemma of what to do with the slaves.

If they can’t free them or euthanize them, they will be legally bound to care for them for the remainder of the natural lives of the animals. Any attempts to euthanize them will be opposed by the public.

Sea World can make a choice to survive as a positive educational and entertainment facility that does not exploit animals or it can go out of business completely as the public becomes more educated to the abuses and contradictions of this institution of slavery.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:06 AM   #49
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A response from SeaWorld.

http://seaworld.com/en/ourcare/Lette...ontent=DIGITAL
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:00 AM   #50
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I think regrettably no matter what SeaWorld say those who are set on bringing them down will not believe them.

Most of those teetering on the edge will also not be persuaded by their comments either.

Its a shame, the Whales and dolphins are clearly made to do things they wouldn't do in the wild.

They will inevitably have to scale down the "performance" element of the show and revert to something more conservation related. With viewing galleries and enrichment shows rather than what they do now.

Surely people don't only visit to see the shamu show. As for the other fellas "brilliant" ideas, seaworld have done most of this as Discovery Cove and Aquatica

But go out of business - No chance, they will simply build bigger and better coasters to rival Universal etc, people will still visit.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:12 PM   #51
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I think regrettably no matter what SeaWorld say those who are set on bringing them down will not believe them. Most of those teetering on the edge will also not be persuaded by their comments either. Its a shame, the Whales and dolphins are clearly made to do things they wouldn't do in the wild. They will inevitably have to scale down the "performance" element of the show and revert to something more conservation related. With viewing galleries and enrichment shows rather than what they do now. Surely people don't only visit to see the shamu show. As for the other fellas "brilliant" ideas, seaworld have done most of this as Discovery Cove and Aquatica But go out of business - No chance, they will simply build bigger and better coasters to rival Universal etc, people will still visit.
http://www.wdwinfo.com/news/seaworld...00_percent.htm

It was reported here that their profit has risen 300% no chance they are going to go out of business even with all this bad publicity.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:56 PM   #52
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There will be some that will go juts to see what all the fuss is about.

I am going Christmas day and going to the Dine with Shamu for dinner. I certainly wont be boycotting them I fully support the work that they do. Its 2013 not 1960 and we can only deal with the situation at hand not punish them for something they may have done 50 years ago WAAAYYY before anyone thought any different.
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Old 12-22-2013, 04:19 PM   #53
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Just watched Blackfish. I thought I was going in prepared having known of all the incidents and how they were captured, etc. But I was not. The poor mother orca crying for her baby taken away just completely got me.
I'm so glad I didnt buy tickets for SeaWorld for my upcoming trip,I will not support the company nor step foot on their property until they make some drastic changes.

The thing that concerns me the most is the breeding programme. It is wholly unnecessary to breed these whales - any legitimate breeding programme usually does so with the aim of eventually reintroducing them back to their natural habitat, however that clearly can't properly happen here as without their pods the whales will likely die if released into the wild.
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Old 12-23-2013, 12:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ChipnDaleRule View Post
Really don't know if I can watch it .Might need to re think our sea world plans . Thats all DD wants to be is a Maine Biologist because of her Sea World and Discovery Cove experience.I suppose it brings into question there too
Your daughter can always be a marine biologist that studies orcas in their natural environment. I'm 38 now, but when I was 18 and entering college, I was going to be a Zoologist/Marine Biology major so I could train killer whales, but changed my mind due to captivity not being ethical. I ended up in law enforcement....but still love orcas and will not visit SeaWorld or any other park that keeps orcas prisoner.
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Old 12-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #55
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Julianneboo - Thanks for posting that. Now, if Paul Watson took over, and changes like that were made, we would visit SeaWorld, but until it adapts and makes those changes, we will not go.

I think the film has made great strides in making people aware of what is really going on, however, you will always have people who dismiss it and feel it's one sided, but the fight against cetacean captivity is gaining momentum like never before and spreading like wildfire....and I LOVE it.
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Old 12-23-2013, 03:41 PM   #56
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The film is totally biaised.

just look at this thread. If there is one thing posters vividly keep in mind, it's the crying orca, and the taking of the calf.

Seaworld has not done such a thing in the last 35 years
Tilikum, the killer whale involved in Dawn's death was born in 1981 and was captured in '83 at age 2 and brought to Sealand and later was sold to Seaworld after the death of a student.

What viewers need to consider, it's that this movie is showing some outdated facts to depict current events.

Let me give you an example : imagine a movie about South Africa, depicting apartheid, violence and segregation against black people, and these footages be used to try and prove that we need to boycott south africa today.

that's basically the pretense of this movie.

of course, it's not an orca's place to be in a glorified fish tank.

but another question comes to mind. What if Seaworld closes ? What do you do with the whales, dolphins and other animals, if, and that's the purpose, marine animals can no longer be "shown" or "detained".
These animals would need to be killed, or they would be sentenced to death because they can't go back to the wild (think of the "Free Willy" Orca's death.

Some people are not ok with animals being kept in "cages" ... but they're ok with them being killed or sent to their death
now what about the millions of dollars spent by seaworld on protection and rescue. This is genuine, a rather vast sum of money goes back to the animals.

It's a two sided coin. Of course I wouldn't like being a whale in any marine park. nobody would.
But that film is so biaised that people should try to go beyond the shocking images and realise that, between Seaworld's corporate version, and this film's version, there is something in between that's closer to the truth.

Now, as for the "agenda", PETA is somewhere behind all this. They've been acting for some years now, not only against Seaworld. But on the director's part, the agenda is plain to see. Think about Michael Moore and his controversial documentaries, and you'll see how you can build a reputation out of thin air, just by blowing things out of proportion.

As long as the audience gets the impression that "ohh I've been lied to all this time", when it's actually the movie that's biaised, then you WILL get awards (Sundance Festival anyone ?) and sell DVDs, and become more "bankable" in your playing field.

I will not stop going to Seaworld. I've never been in denial as to think that those animals lived in the best conditions and could be at least as happy as they'd have be in the wild. To me it's obvious that a captive animal is captive, period.
But I also understand the educationnal value and the work that's been done, and that's still done by Seaworld in the field of protection and rescue.

People are shocked by the slaughter of Dolphins and demand that marine parks be closed down. I suppose they'd be ok with letting hundreds of animals die, stranded on beaches, or mowed down by boats, nets, and so on. And that what would happen without the money Seaworld injects back into the rescue effort.

That's a very precarious balance, and right now, movies like this do not help, they tilt the scale, and it might do more harm than it would do good. (the road to hell is paved ... you know ...)
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:41 PM   #57
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but for the other side of the story, here's a former employee's (pro-Seaworld) response: https://www.facebook.com/notes/julie...52163058773885

Honestly I haven't watched the documentary, I'm not planning to watch it and I'm still going to go to Seaworld. I'm not under the illusion that they're perfect.
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Old 12-24-2013, 08:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by chmurf View Post
The film is totally biaised.

just look at this thread. If there is one thing posters vividly keep in mind, it's the crying orca, and the taking of the calf.

Seaworld has not done such a thing in the last 35 years
Tilikum, the killer whale involved in Dawn's death was born in 1981 and was captured in '83 at age 2 and brought to Sealand and later was sold to Seaworld after the death of a student.

What viewers need to consider, it's that this movie is showing some outdated facts to depict current events.

Let me give you an example : imagine a movie about South Africa, depicting apartheid, violence and segregation against black people, and these footages be used to try and prove that we need to boycott south africa today.

that's basically the pretense of this movie.

of course, it's not an orca's place to be in a glorified fish tank.

but another question comes to mind. What if Seaworld closes ? What do you do with the whales, dolphins and other animals, if, and that's the purpose, marine animals can no longer be "shown" or "detained".
These animals would need to be killed, or they would be sentenced to death because they can't go back to the wild (think of the "Free Willy" Orca's death.

Some people are not ok with animals being kept in "cages" ... but they're ok with them being killed or sent to their death
now what about the millions of dollars spent by seaworld on protection and rescue. This is genuine, a rather vast sum of money goes back to the animals.

It's a two sided coin. Of course I wouldn't like being a whale in any marine park. nobody would.
But that film is so biaised that people should try to go beyond the shocking images and realise that, between Seaworld's corporate version, and this film's version, there is something in between that's closer to the truth.

Now, as for the "agenda", PETA is somewhere behind all this. They've been acting for some years now, not only against Seaworld. But on the director's part, the agenda is plain to see. Think about Michael Moore and his controversial documentaries, and you'll see how you can build a reputation out of thin air, just by blowing things out of proportion.

As long as the audience gets the impression that "ohh I've been lied to all this time", when it's actually the movie that's biaised, then you WILL get awards (Sundance Festival anyone ?) and sell DVDs, and become more "bankable" in your playing field.

I will not stop going to Seaworld. I've never been in denial as to think that those animals lived in the best conditions and could be at least as happy as they'd have be in the wild. To me it's obvious that a captive animal is captive, period.
But I also understand the educationnal value and the work that's been done, and that's still done by Seaworld in the field of protection and rescue.

People are shocked by the slaughter of Dolphins and demand that marine parks be closed down. I suppose they'd be ok with letting hundreds of animals die, stranded on beaches, or mowed down by boats, nets, and so on. And that what would happen without the money Seaworld injects back into the rescue effort.

That's a very precarious balance, and right now, movies like this do not help, they tilt the scale, and it might do more harm than it would do good. (the road to hell is paved ... you know ...)

Sea World's annual revenue is 1.5 billion yearly. 9 million is spent on conservation. That means 0.0006 of the company's net revenue is being funneled into research and conservation annually. For every $100.00 made by the park, less than 1 cent benefits wildlife. They do not commit as much to rescue and rehab as they want you to believe they do.
Most of its rescue work is with animals that are not profitable as performers in its shows.
Sea World has NEVER released an orca back into the wild.
Using education as an excuse to bring in billions of dollars for profit is immoral.

Please go back and read Captain Paul Watson's response that Julliannboo posted on 12/16 in this thread. There are alternatives. Research both sides.

No matter how you spin it, whether you approve of Blackfish or not, these large mammals, all cetaceans, do not deserve the treatment they are receiving at Sea World and all of the other marine parks and "swim with" programs across the globe.

If you research all of the orcas born in Sea World facilities you will find they do continue to separate calves from their mothers. Many of the captive born babies are moved to other facilities. Using Tillicum as as the sole example of this practice does not show the whole picture.

And on a personal note, using South Africa and apartheid as a comparison to cetacean captivity and the movie Blackfish is ridiculous and offensive to me.
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Old 12-24-2013, 09:18 AM   #59
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The footage of the "crying" orca mother mourning the baby that was stolen from her is not old footage from the 60's or 70's. That was fairly recent and happened at a SeaWorld Park. It is also not an isolated incident, and still happens. Why does SW do this, you ask? Because having a calf takes away from the orca's ability/willingness to perform. Their babies are their first priority, and during shows, if a mother's calf is in another tank, and calls out to them, they are not going to be paying attention to their trainers, and will not be of good use in the money making shows. Bottom line....it affects their profits if their money making orcas as not performing, so even though it psychologically hurts the mother (and of course the baby) SW decides to send the baby off to another park (either SW or "on loan" to a crappy, ill-run place like Loro Parque in Spain). Speaking of Loro Parque.......it's not owned by SW, but most of their orcas are owned by SeaWorld, and are in poor health (they have eaten parts of their tank!).

Not too go off course too much, but the SW breeding program is AWFUL! They are artificially inseminating young female orcas (under the age of 10) who would never get pregnant that young in the wild. They never learned how to become a mother from their Pod members, and may reject their calves. Not because they want to, but because they don't know what the hell to do! This would be the equivalent of forcibly impregnating a 12 year old human child, and then expect her to know how to properly mother a child. AWFULNESS!

Don't believe me? Read this article;

http://blog.seattlepi.com/candacewhi...ty-than-males/
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Old 12-24-2013, 09:22 AM   #60
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Oh, and don't let me forget to mention poor Katina, who they started breeding at age 9, (wild female orcas don't typically reach puberty until age 10-14) is basically a baby machine for SeaWorld, having baby after baby stolen from her. She has even mated with her own son and has had inbred babies. I guess we can equate SeaWorld to an "orca mill" as it doesn't sound too much different than those evil puppy mills we have all heard about.
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