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Old 11-03-2013, 10:12 PM   #136
clsteve
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Originally Posted by ArwenMarie View Post
I'm not sure about that retail number. I know there is no way we spend that much. Other than food, which is already accounted for, I'd say we spend maybe 50 a day on random things for our family in total.

I really think the only thing that makes sense to count as a definite plus for Disney is the lodging cost. And probably some portion of food, because it's more likely an offsite visitor will eat offsite more.

Regardless, I do agree that there is a difference of thousands of dollars for an average week-long vacation onsite versus offsite, just not sure how many thousands.
Frequent visitors rarely spend that much on what I grouped into Retail- because we already have, just over multiple trips.

First and 2nd time guests do, however.

And I would have made more sense if I had added Travel as a percentage and said Retail (incl. booze, gifts, sundries, etc.) was 22-28% of on-site expenditures.

Heck, it just happened to me last year when I went the first time with my kids after many times as a kid, then adult, then a couple:
1st day at Magic Kingdom: Main Street Silhouettes of kids for both sets of GP's, Mickey Ears, Photopass+, 2 t-shirts, you get what I mean.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:41 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by clsteve View Post
I feel your pain, but this is about "heads in Disney beds".

The numbers dont lie, on-site visitors provide an incredibly larger piece of the pie. Let's look at the math for a 7 night, 4 family on-site and a 4 family off-site as Disney sees it (you can change the # of days but the ratio is the same):

Lodging:

Onsite: 7 x $300.00 = $2,100.00
Offsite: 7 x $0.00 = $0.00

Tickets:

Onsite: 4 x 7day ticket = $1,235.80
Offsite: 4 x 4day ticket = $1,023.80

Meals:

Onsite: 7days x 4people x 3meals(avg. $25.00) = $2,100.00
Offsite: 4days x 4people x 1.25meals(avg. $25.00) = $500.00

Retail:
Shopping, drinking, mini-golf, etc.: (Higher dollar amnt. for onsite because- when you're on-site and you forget your sunglasses,shampoo, toothpaste, etc., you're buying it from Disney. When you get a beer at the pool, or a newspaper in the Lobby, you're buying it from Disney)

Onsite: 7days x 4people x 4hrs/day x $25.00/hr = $2,800.00
Offsite: 4days x 4people x 3hrs/day x $10.00/hr = $480.00

Totals:
Onsite: $8,235.80
Offsite: $2,003.80
And I'm being generous for the off-site visitors, the majority of which will get one, two or three day tickets.

We have to remember the VAST majority of Disney guests visit once or twice in their lifetime and Disney wants to make sure they get them to spend that on-site. We on the DISboards are a very small but vocal minority in the fiscal grand scheme of things. We can debate fairness, but we dont have a valid argument against the bottom line.
But you should also mention that off-site guest cost Disney much less overhead too. No providing buses, paying someone to clean our rooms or staffing our resort, giving us free dining, transporting our in park purchases anywhere or bothering opening/leaving open the park just for us.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:56 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by mom2mickeyfan View Post
But you should also mention that off-site guest cost Disney much less overhead too. No providing buses, paying someone to clean our rooms or staffing our resort, giving us free dining, transporting our in park purchases anywhere or bothering opening/leaving open the park just for us.
I think the overhead is a pretty static #. They would have to have staff in place regardless of how many guests utilize any of these services. If you don't use them someone else is.

This may be part of where they are going with the magic band data. We only need 50 CM's on today instead of 100 and so forth.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:11 PM   #139
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But you should also mention that off-site guest cost Disney much less overhead too. No providing buses, paying someone to clean our rooms or staffing our resort, giving us free dining, transporting our in park purchases anywhere or bothering opening/leaving open the park just for us.
Actually, that kind of validates the opposite of what you are implying- To recognize a profit for DisneyCo and their shareholders, they need to maximize revenue. If Disney could have maintained astronomical growth and profit margins with just the parks and off-site guests with no resorts, they would have and your point would be valid.

All of the rooms, staff, buses, etc., are there (and recognized as operational costs) to entice on-site guests: these perks fill rooms, then the on-site guests spend incrementally more.

But, nothing decreases any resorts bottom line more than empty rooms, once they're there

The Darkside is beating them about the head and shoulders with Universal Express. So, none of us should be surprised by the evolution towards FP+....
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:28 AM   #140
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I don't see why park access should be singled out to be "equal" for everyone. If you fly down Orlando in coach, your seat is the same as everyone else's onboard, but every single person paid a different price. Is it "fair" that some people paid more for the exact same seats, while others got discounts, or even free tickets with frequent flier miles?

Very few businesses charge the same thing to every customer anymore. Your frequent buyer status, customer level, etc. all affect everything. I don't see why Disney and resort stays should be any different. I'd love to see onsite guests get more park perks, and Deluxe to get more perks than Mods or Value people.

Here's a good one: the Resort Monorail could be for Resort guests only. Scan your Magic band when you get to the queue. If you're staying at GF, Poly, or CR, or you have an ADR for a restaurant at one of those resorts that day, you get to ride the Resort monorail. If not, you don't. All guests get access to the MK/TTC monorail.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:48 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by DPCummerbund View Post
I don't see why park access should be singled out to be "equal" for everyone. If you fly down Orlando in coach, your seat is the same as everyone else's onboard, but every single person paid a different price. Is it "fair" that some people paid more for the exact same seats, while others got discounts, or even free tickets with frequent flier miles?

Very few businesses charge the same thing to every customer anymore. Your frequent buyer status, customer level, etc. all affect everything. I don't see why Disney and resort stays should be any different. I'd love to see onsite guests get more park perks, and Deluxe to get more perks than Mods or Value people.

Here's a good one: the Resort Monorail could be for Resort guests only. Scan your Magic band when you get to the queue. If you're staying at GF, Poly, or CR, or you have an ADR for a restaurant at one of those resorts that day, you get to ride the Resort monorail. If not, you don't. All guests get access to the MK/TTC monorail.
I don't know. I sorta picture Karen Black and that one dude when I think of this scenario.



Perhaps they could hire him at the Poly to keep the regular folk from trying to get to the park they bought a ticket to.

Not to mention....have you ever left MK on an insane night where the Monorail breaks down? Can us regular folk take the boat we were destined to ride while watching the Poly and GFs make a swim for it? Moats are bad.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:49 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by DPCummerbund View Post
I don't see why park access should be singled out to be "equal" for everyone. If you fly down Orlando in coach, your seat is the same as everyone else's onboard, but every single person paid a different price. Is it "fair" that some people paid more for the exact same seats, while others got discounts, or even free tickets with frequent flier miles?

Very few businesses charge the same thing to every customer anymore. Your frequent buyer status, customer level, etc. all affect everything. I don't see why Disney and resort stays should be any different. I'd love to see onsite guests get more park perks, and Deluxe to get more perks than Mods or Value people.

Here's a good one: the Resort Monorail could be for Resort guests only. Scan your Magic band when you get to the queue. If you're staying at GF, Poly, or CR, or you have an ADR for a restaurant at one of those resorts that day, you get to ride the Resort monorail. If not, you don't. All guests get access to the MK/TTC monorail.
How are those who are staying at the BC, the Swan or in Timbuktoo get to somewhere like Kona where no ADR's are often necessary? I doubt that Disney would want keep anyone from having access.

This aside, for those who are so determined that offsite guests spend so little, I still don't see anyone taking free dining into account. If a family stays at the Allstars and gets free dining, don't they spend considerably less than those who stay in deluxe resorts? Or in some cases even less than those who stay offsite? I know people who adore the Swan and Dolphin and who eat at signature restaurants for just about every meal. Should those people really get the cold shoulder from Disney?
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:51 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by clsteve View Post
This

From a previous post: Disney occupancy rate for on-site hotels has been dropping the last few years and was around 80 or so percent last year (I believe that was the number I saw posted in another discussion). FP+ is focused specifically on increasing that. Disney gets 99% of dollars spent by on-site guests not close to that for off-site. If FP+ can help get that number into the mid-upper 90's, they will have accomplished their goal.

It's the razor/razor blade or printer/printer ink analogy: Printer companies make 3 times the revenue on printer ink as do shaving companies with razor blades. The added perks, such as more FP+ reservations available for on-site guests, are Disney's "razor".

That is why the increase in standby time (especially for off-site) is a secondary concern for them and why it's a safe bet that on-site will have more FP+opportunities in number and lead time for reserving. The added revenue from the additional on-site guests will more than off-set dollars lost by off-site standing in line.
I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see all room discounts to be replaced by extra FP+ tickets. No cost to give a guest an extra FP+ or two or three.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:37 AM   #144
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I'm hoping they start selling a FP option like they do at Universal. I'd pay extra to get it. I know I'm going to be booed for that. LOL.
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They've done it before. Park hoppers are a prime example. For years they had everyone all stoked to "hop"; now they charge extra for the privelege. Paying extra for FastPass can't be too far away.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:54 AM   #145
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I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see all room discounts to be replaced by extra FP+ tickets. No cost to give a guest an extra FP+ or two or three.
This would be a coup if they could sell it. Generally they offer specials like free dining and discounted rooms at non peak times. Their success at filling in some of those off times is why (at least in my opinion) people are finding heavier crowds at previously slow times.

Experienced visitors know that wait times are a lot lower at those less busy times, so more FP reservations has a lot less value than at a peak time. But, there would probably be people who would think that a couple extra ride reservations would have value and then find that they have reservations for something with a 5-10 minute wait.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:55 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by CookieGVB

They've done it before. Park hoppers are a prime example. For years they had everyone all stoked to "hop"; now they charge extra for the privelege. Paying extra for FastPass can't be too far away.
Didn't the old hoppers also used to be non-expiring which also costs more now?
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:09 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by DPCummerbund View Post
I don't see why park access should be singled out to be "equal" for everyone. If you fly down Orlando in coach, your seat is the same as everyone else's onboard, but every single person paid a different price. Is it "fair" that some people paid more for the exact same seats, while others got discounts, or even free tickets with frequent flier miles?

Very few businesses charge the same thing to every customer anymore. Your frequent buyer status, customer level, etc. all affect everything. I don't see why Disney and resort stays should be any different. I'd love to see onsite guests get more park perks, and Deluxe to get more perks than Mods or Value people.

Here's a good one: the Resort Monorail could be for Resort guests only. Scan your Magic band when you get to the queue. If you're staying at GF, Poly, or CR, or you have an ADR for a restaurant at one of those resorts that day, you get to ride the Resort monorail. If not, you don't. All guests get access to the MK/TTC monorail.
In your airline analogy you get better service on the flight, more comfortable seat ect ect for the extra money you spent. If people who are staying deluxe or onsite in general want extra then they should be asking for reduced park tickets for a perk. They already gets perks for staying onsite. I know someone posted this earlier but the park is a separate entity from your accommodations and what you can do or can't shouldn't be affected by your choice of where you choose to sleep. If it costs me the same to enter the park I should have the same opportunities to partake of park attractions.

I know Universal gives a park perk to their hotel guests but that is for 3 resorts not 24. Plus Universal doesn't have the same attendance that Disney has.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:12 AM   #148
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Didn't the old hoppers also used to be non-expiring which also costs more now?
I believe all forms of tickets were non expiring.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:16 AM   #149
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How are those who are staying at the BC, the Swan or in Timbuktoo get to somewhere like Kona where no ADR's are often necessary? I doubt that Disney would want keep anyone from having access.

This aside, for those who are so determined that offsite guests spend so little, I still don't see anyone taking free dining into account. If a family stays at the Allstars and gets free dining, don't they spend considerably less than those who stay in deluxe resorts? Or in some cases even less than those who stay offsite? I know people who adore the Swan and Dolphin and who eat at signature restaurants for just about every meal. Should those people really get the cold shoulder from Disney?
Free Dining is a perk to fill rooms- more guests on-site, more revenue. Plus the Free Dining is off-set somewhat by no room discounts if you select it. And it actually proves the point of how important it is to get those guests in All-Stars rooms on-site vs. in another hotel.

If you look at the percentages, let's say dining was 30% of your vacation expenditure. Even if Disney "gives" that to you during slow times, once they get you on that big ol' painted MEARS bus, they're still getting 100% of your lodging, 100% of your ticket expenditure, and 100% of your miscellaneous expenditure. And with, their huge mark-up on alcohol, they're not coming out too far behind on free dining.

Free Dining is like Vegas Casinos heavily discounting rooms during slow times to get guests on the gaming floor.

Additional FP+ for onsite will do the exact thing and could cause the lessening of Free Dining, over time.

The Swan and the Dolphin aren't, technically, considered off-site. Disney knows they will get considerably more revenue from their guests versus ones staying at, say, the Hampton Inn which is why the are afforded most of the same on-site privileges as those staying next door at the Yacht Club.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:22 AM   #150
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Oh My...

Take a weekend off of the Dis and come back to 5 more pages of rants. I love it.

Oh yeah everyone who stays onsite should get the exact same experience as someone staying offsite. *not*.

Oh yeah when you pay $500/nt to stay at the Poly it's for a nicer room. Hah. Have you seen the Poly rooms? They look like -- oh yeah. A hotel room. With housekeepers who make animals out of your towels. You are not paying for just a room.

If you feel the off-site is enough of a savings that it's worth it to you to do so, given you wont get on rides as fast, that is your CHOICE. If you want the fast passes, then pay the extra $100-$300/nt to stay on property. But certainly don't complain that Disney won't give you something for free that others paid a premium for.

Of course Disney is going to offer perk after perk - some of them being things that ARE REALLY VALUEABLE like FPs - to entice guests to spend big bucks and stay at their resorts.

This is business. Disney's goal is to maximize its own profit while killing off all the competing business. Remember those competing Holiday Inns and HoJos only exist there because they are leeching off the Disney attractions in the first place... now, they will have one more obstacle in their way while they attempt to suck Disney guests offsite by offering cheaper rooms.

I can't help but think all the new changes are AWESOME. It is progress -- picking your FPs from the convenience of your home. No rush for Kiosks. Less abuse by FastPass Runners / Masters. More money spent by most guests. More profit for Disney = more capital investment. There may be some volatility during the rollout but that happens w everything new, leading to much better later.

Oh and someone else said Disney hasn't done anything new lately? Really? Disney just bought Lucas Arts! Huge capital investment. And Marvell comics! And new Fantasyland and new Avatar Land and new Star Wars Land and new Shanghai Disney. Disney is spending money hand over foot on improving and spreading their dominance.

It's just... too funny to read some of these rants.
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