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Old 08-08-2013, 05:00 PM   #121
lexandme
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Originally Posted by FlightlessDuck View Post
I question any documentary that has an agenda before it's even filmed. It appears the entire point of this documentary was to show SeaWorld as awful. Maybe it is, but a good documentary director doesn't make assumptions to begin with.
Have you seen "Blackfish"? I don't think the point of this documentary was solely to paint Sea World as awful. I believe it was fact based. If Your takeaway was that Sea World is an awful place, perhaps it really is.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:26 PM   #122
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Have you seen "Blackfish"? I don't think the point of this documentary was solely to paint Sea World as awful. I believe it was fact based. If Your takeaway was that Sea World is an awful place, perhaps it really is.
I agree. I think one reason that the film is so well-done is that it is NOT an all-out assault on Sea World.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:04 PM   #123
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I question any documentary that has an agenda before it's even filmed. It appears the entire point of this documentary was to show SeaWorld as awful. Maybe it is, but a good documentary director doesn't make assumptions to begin with.
Obviously you have no clue that there is a lot of research before the camera starts rolling in a documentary. What in this doc was made up and is untrue?
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:31 AM   #124
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I have a simple question after almost 50 yrs of capturing killer whales with 30+ deaths at just seaworld parks alone when are we going to realize these highly social and intelligent creatures are not thriving in captivity unlike the industry will have you believe?

I hate when people use the excuse that captivity lets people who otherwise couldn't see them in the wild get a chance to see them in person. That's a selfish reason as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #125
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I have a simple question after almost 50 yrs of capturing killer whales with 30+ deaths at just seaworld parks alone when are we going to realize these highly social and intelligent creatures are not thriving in captivity unlike the industry will have you believe?

I hate when people use the excuse that captivity lets people who otherwise couldn't see them in the wild get a chance to see them in person. That's a selfish reason as far as I'm concerned.
Human arrogance.
Also the Taiji dolphin slaughter begins on Sept 1.
I'm very encouraged by the recent news that "Blackfish"has prompted PIXAR to re-write the ending of "Finding Dory" to allow the characters to decide if they want to remain in a Sea World environment.
We are making progress
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:35 PM   #126
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I'm out of town until Saturday night so won't be of much help until I'm at a computer, but I did want to say that Alex and Irene are very controversial in the field of avian training. There is no dispute that Alex had an amazing vocabulary and great relationship with his trainer, but there's a lot of skepticism about how much coaching he received during sessions. Parrots learn social cues, I.e. they learn "if I say X when Y is in front of me, I get Z". For example, we have an Amazon that says "want an apple!" Every time we feed him. Does it mean he wants an apple? No. It means that he associates that phrase with getting food in general. He also says "wanna come out?" Whenever we open his door. He doesn't really understand what "wanna come out?" means, but he knows that when we open the door, we tend to say that phrase, so when he sees the door open, he says it and it seems like he "understands" that opening the door means coming out. That's not necessarily true, and a lot of Alex's behaviors were in that type of situation - he understood that saying one phrase lead to an action, but did he really understand what he was saying?
Fascinating! So, when you say controversial about Alex is that just a polite way of saying no one in the avian community believes it or is there legitimate controversy? I would love to hear more or if there is a website you could point me to, that would be great!

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"Perhaps 10, 15, 20 years from now when we have a lot more research and perhaps when humans become less concerned with the clear line dividing "us" and "them" and more concerned with the planet's ecosystem and inhabitants as a whole, it will no longer be an acceptable practice". (Mrsclark)

Mrsclark - I can truly appreciate your knowledge on this subject. But I think for now we must agree to disagree. I still believe it's time to stop the research in captivity and concentrate on what cetaceans have to teach us from the wild. We already know they are extremely intelligent. Let's move on and get realistic data collected in their natural environment.

I am thrilled that just yesterday NOAA denied a permit for the import of 18 wild caught Belugas from Russia. The request was from Sea World, Georgia Aquarium and Shedd Aquarium. Several organizations are now working on plans to recover the whales and begin to rehab and release them. All the squawking and protesting from us crazy tree hugging animal loving activist fools is slowing being recognized!
LexandMe, I will agree to disagree too! Like I said, I am not positive I am right, I am only going with what I feel based on what I know.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:59 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by eboothecat View Post
I have a simple question after almost 50 yrs of capturing killer whales with 30+ deaths at just seaworld parks alone when are we going to realize these highly social and intelligent creatures are not thriving in captivity unlike the industry will have you believe?

I hate when people use the excuse that captivity lets people who otherwise couldn't see them in the wild get a chance to see them in person. That's a selfish reason as far as I'm concerned.
Humans ARE selfish. The more I learn about the animal practices we allow in the United States.... whales, dolphins, and especially factory farming, the more frustrated and despairing I become. I can only vote with my actions and what I support with my dollars, but I wish I could find a way to do more.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:00 AM   #128
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Fascinating! So, when you say controversial about Alex is that just a polite way of saying no one in the avian community believes it or is there legitimate controversy? I would love to hear more or if there is a website you could point me to, that would be great!
Oh no nothing like that. Alex had incredibly abilities and certainly high intelligence! It's just controversial because although the words he says are in English, it's not accurate to say that he is "speaking" the same way we are. For example, he frequently would say "want a grape" and she would give him a grape. There's absolutely no way of knowing if in his mind, he REALLY wanted a grape, or if he just knew that saying so would get him a grape, does that make sense? Deep down, maybe he really wanted an apple, but he said "want a grape"... Grapes are delicious too, so of course he will eat it, but was that really what he absolutely wanted at that moment in time? Who knows! She was on Nova saying that Alex was "inquisitive" because he would ask "what shape? What color?" outside of sessions. That is REALLY anthropomorphizing!! When he heard her say that phrase hundreds of times a day, it's no wonder he repeated it. Our Amazon loves to make the sound of a chicken. Why? I dunno, it's fun. Doesn't mean he wants a chicken

Also, frequently when they interacted, he would say "I love you". There was even a big to-do about those being his last words. Does he KNOW what "I love you" means? No. Did he know that saying "I love you" probably got him praise and possibly treats and made his owner happy? Yes.

Birds (not just parrots) are incredibly smart. In studies, pigeons have shown that they can count and understand concepts of greater than or less than. Ravens and crows, as you mentioned earlier, demonstrated that they practice meta-tool-use (using a tool to get another tool to get food). Parrots I've worked with (keas) can decipher that different items have different values... Give her a red ball, I get a grape, but give her a yellow ball, I get a huge peanut, so ill give her the yellow ball instead. Those concepts are all things that I'm sure Alex and many other parrots can distinguish, the part that is questionable is how much he actually understood the words that were coming out of his mouth.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:06 PM   #129
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(apologies if this is an double post - computer acting up)

i saw it at the london film festival in april - depressed the hell out of me.

i bought the dvd and i dont think that i will watch it again so i am lending it out to co workers.

the parts i couldnt watch was Tilikum capture and the footage of them putting a tube down one of the whales throats and the trainers having to try and hold the whale still while it was thrashing about.

after seeing that pretty much my sympathy of trainers getting hurt or being killed pretty much dwindled.

Especially towards Ken Peters - the guy who kept being taken down by Kasatka - i think that she had attacked him before and even after all that happened he is still at Seaworld.

How brainwashed/thick does someone need to be - the clues are there Ken; the whale doesnt like you so dont get in the water with her again.

Without him knowing it i think that by killing his third victim which was Dawn Brancheau, Tilikum has started the beginning of the end of killer whale captivity - in America at least.

This documentary seems to have had more impact on audiences than 'the cove' and it is gaining speed really quickly now.

I dont think the film makers realised how big Blackfish would be and seem to be surprised at the pace Blackfish it is gathering.

Tilikum is related to 52% of the whales at Seaworld - imbreeding has already begun - i give killer whale captivity in America at 50 years max - I reckon Seaworld know this and that is why they wanted to try and import begulas in from the wild a little while back.

It too late for Tilikum - he not a good candidate to be released back into a seapen as he is on anti biotics, anti acids, etc but maybe he is helping other whales, maybe some that are not even born yet, to stop suffering the same fate as he did.

Go and see it if you havent already.
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Old 09-21-2013, 01:07 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by julieannboo View Post
(apologies if this is an double post - computer acting up)

i saw it at the london film festival in april - depressed the hell out of me.

i bought the dvd and i dont think that i will watch it again so i am lending it out to co workers.

the parts i couldnt watch was Tilikum capture and the footage of them putting a tube down one of the whales throats and the trainers having to try and hold the whale still while it was thrashing about.

after seeing that pretty much my sympathy of trainers getting hurt or being killed pretty much dwindled.

Especially towards Ken Peters - the guy who kept being taken down by Kasatka - i think that she had attacked him before and even after all that happened he is still at Seaworld.

How brainwashed/thick does someone need to be - the clues are there Ken; the whale doesnt like you so dont get in the water with her again.

Without him knowing it i think that by killing his third victim which was Dawn Brancheau, Tilikum has started the beginning of the end of killer whale captivity - in America at least.

This documentary seems to have had more impact on audiences than 'the cove' and it is gaining speed really quickly now.

I dont think the film makers realised how big Blackfish would be and seem to be surprised at the pace Blackfish it is gathering.

Tilikum is related to 52% of the whales at Seaworld - imbreeding has already begun - i give killer whale captivity in America at 50 years max - I reckon Seaworld know this and that is why they wanted to try and import begulas in from the wild a little while back.

It too late for Tilikum - he not a good candidate to be released back into a seapen as he is on anti biotics, anti acids, etc but maybe he is helping other whales, maybe some that are not even born yet, to stop suffering the same fate as he did.

Go and see it if you havent already.
I agree with you that the movie, in places, was hard to watch. I disagree with you about not feeling sympathy for the trainers though. If you believe animals can be intelligent (which I do) and have individual personalities (which I also believe) then I think it is possible to build a very deep relationship with an animal - whether it be domesticated like our pet dogs and wild/captive like orcas. Many of us that love our animals would probably forgive mistakes against us, for example, perhaps if a dog we had for years bites us one day (for whatever reason). I believe that the trainers developed personal relationships with these killer whales. If they were attacked every time they got in the water with them, of course they would quit. After the trainers are with these animals on a daily basis without incident to them personally, they probably let their guards down (of course in that line of work your guard should always be up, but they are human and make errors and get too comfortable). I am sure Ken Peters felt he had a relationship with Kasatka. As a corporation, SW should have put numerous safeguards in place to prevent, as much as possible, problems from this human error, but based on the movie, what I have heard on the radio, and what I have read, I think SW was negligent and reckless with their staff. To me, SW, rather than the trainers, is the most responsible in this case.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:03 PM   #131
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I've had the privilege to speak one on one with a Sea World trainer before. The trainer told me very much so, matter of fact, that they do not force an animal of any kind to do anything they do not want to do. If they don't want to do whats asked of them they're not going to do it, nor does Sea World punish them in any way.
Of course that is what a trainer is going to tell you. Seaworld has very strict rules on what they can, and cannot tell people. Seaworld wants the sheeple to buy into their facade of the happy shamu that loves performing lame tricks for people. The employees are force fed lies that they pass on to the uninformed average person that comes to their parks.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:38 AM   #132
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Blackfish is being shown on CNN tomorrow evening.

Gonna be amazing - enough people will see this.

This documentary keeps gathering pace.

We are telling your story Tilikum and all those other captive whales past and present.

Seaworld know they are borrowed time with keeping killer whales in captivity. Inbreeding has begun. 52% whales are related to Tilikum.

They have 50 years max at keeping killer whales on display in marine parks.

The clock is ticking.

We will look back at the 70's, 80's, 90's and the 00's in shock and disbelief at what we did by taking away these creatures freedom for the name of 'education'. We will also see how perverse it was/is - to get whales to do tricks for us by messing with their food supply; playing loud music at the shows and the trainers dressed up like killer whales in spandex.

Gonna be amazing when the full enormity hits us of how we messed with nature. :-)
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:07 PM   #133
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Blackfish is being shown on CNN tomorrow evening.

Gonna be amazing - enough people will see this.

This documentary keeps gathering pace.

We are telling your story Tilikum and all those other captive whales past and present.

Seaworld know they are borrowed time with keeping killer whales in captivity. Inbreeding has begun. 52% whales are related to Tilikum.

They have 50 years max at keeping killer whales on display in marine parks.
The clock is ticking.

We will look back at the 70's, 80's, 90's and the 00's in shock and disbelief at what we did by taking away these creatures freedom for the name of 'education'. We will also see how perverse it was/is - to get whales to do tricks for us by messing with their food supply; playing loud music at the shows and the trainers dressed up like killer whales in spandex.

Gonna be amazing when the full enormity hits us of how we messed with nature. :-)
Oh, that's ok, we were planning to go in January.
Haven't been for twenty years but this thread reminded me how good it was.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:23 AM   #134
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Tilikum will be playing to the biggest audience of his life tonight in Blackfish on CNN at 9pm.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:31 AM   #135
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Oh, that's ok, we were planning to go in January.
Haven't been for twenty years but this thread reminded me how good it was.
Thanks

ford family
Enjoy :-)

Hopefully SW will start a new meet and greet with Tilikum in the new future: instead of eating and watching him in that back pool Seaworld can let park goers as well as all the SW execs who want trainers back in the water get into the water with him for a once in a lifetime swim as we all know how 'cute and cuddly killer whales are'.

Then ex trainers, who are now educated about captivity, can hand Tilikum a knife and fork to use for every swim he does.

:-)
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