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Old 07-28-2013, 04:35 PM   #16
ICF
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Originally Posted by NFLDERS View Post
Is it rude not to shake an extended hand? ?
In most cases, I would say yes.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bob NC View Post
Can't believe it took 13 replies to hear the word 'rude'.
Cute post (although technically it was the 12th reply), and I know how you love to make it ad nauseum, but what is your objection in this context? The OP asked a question that could only be answered in a binary way.

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This is a tricky one though due to cultural differences. I am very assertive in my role professionally and always initiate greetings with an offered hand. Not only have I had to not be offended when clients of different ethnic backgrounds demure, I have also learned not to even offer my hand to certain clients as it is actually an offence to them.
That is correct, but in my field (and therefore the context to which I was referring, although that was obviously unclear in my post) Wall Street's social and business moires still govern, even across cultures that don't typically shake hands (particularly certain Asian cultures) so in any business setting in which I find myself, handshakes are still appropriate and expected (and yes, we'll also usually reciprocate with a deferential bow or other appropriate greeting or sign of assent, as well). You do make a good point, however, that it is not culturally universal in every sector of the economy.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by A_Princess'_Daddy View Post
Cute post (although technically it was the 12th reply), and I know how you love to make it ad nauseum, but what is your objection in this context? The OP asked a question that could only be answered in a binary way.
Actually, it didn't even take one reply. It was in the OP. I have no idea how the PP could have a problem with you directly answering the question as asked.

I'm not sure that I remember the last time a handshake that I offered was refused (maybe during SARS - as an epidemiologist, I was based in a hospital that had SARS patients). Like you though (in your follow up post), I've had handshakes followed up by (or preceded by) bows etc. Admittedly, the world of academia and population health are very different from the corporate world.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:30 PM   #19
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Jewish men cannot shake women's hands. I know and have worked with a lot of Jewish people and have seen lots of uncomfortable situations where women extend their hands and a Jewish man wont shake it.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by A_Princess'_Daddy View Post
Cute post (although technically it was the 12th reply), and I know how you love to make it ad nauseum, but what is your objection in this context? The OP asked a question that could only be answered in a binary way.

Ok. You win. Chances are I wouldn't be shaking hands with you.


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Old 07-28-2013, 06:45 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by A_Princess'_Daddy View Post
Cute post (although technically it was the 12th reply), and I know how you love to make it ad nauseum, but what is your objection in this context? The OP asked a question that could only be answered in a binary way.



That is correct, but in my field (and therefore the context to which I was referring, although that was obviously unclear in my post) Wall Street's social and business moires still govern, even across cultures that don't typically shake hands (particularly certain Asian cultures) so in any business setting in which I find myself, handshakes are still appropriate and expected (and yes, we'll also usually reciprocate with a deferential bow or other appropriate greeting or sign of assent, as well). You do make a good point, however, that it is not culturally universal in every sector of the economy.
Quite a different environment to be sure; Canada in general is very multicultural and (whether we personally like it or not) in my workplace we are expected without exception to be aware of and defer to the comfort level of the clients. This is primarily an issue with Middle-eastern and Southeast Asian Muslim men who prefer not to deal with women at all, let alone shake our hands. My male colleagues also know never to extend their hands to the wives of theses men if they meet. (I've never once met an Orthodox Jew in this context so it is not an issue as mentioned by a PP.)
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:57 PM   #22
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I will say this, better to explain and no handshake than to give the dead fish handshake..I so hate that and women are particularly prone to giving it. Nothing feels worse than trying to shake a limp (not a physical problem, mind you) hand.
I hate dead fish handshakes. Why even bother extending your hand if you are not going to grasp the other person's? I never really thought about someone not giving a firm handshake due to a physical issue, though. I guess if that is the problem, don't even bother trying to shake hands. It isn't necessary every time you are introduced. A nice smile works fine .
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:20 AM   #23
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I don't shake hands period. If you extended your hand to me I would smile and say nice to meet you but would not shake hands.

I work with patients whose immunity is either severely compromised or totally not there. After seeing people wipe their nose, pick their nose or pull at their underwear, pick their teeth.... I think you get the point. I can't take that risk with the patients I work with.

I almost always have something in my hand so it is not a problem.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by proud_canadian View Post
Jewish men cannot shake women's hands. I know and have worked with a lot of Jewish people and have seen lots of uncomfortable situations where women extend their hands and a Jewish man wont shake it.
Orthodox Jewish men, true. Most Jewish men have no such restrictions.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bob NC View Post
Ok. You win. Chances are I wouldn't be shaking hands with you.


Why? Because you're unlikely to encounter me, unlikely to encounter me in business, or because you don't like that I responded to your post?

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Originally Posted by ronandannette View Post
Quite a different environment to be sure; Canada in general is very multicultural and (whether we personally like it or not) in my workplace we are expected without exception to be aware of and defer to the comfort level of the clients. This is primarily an issue with Middle-eastern and Southeast Asian Muslim men who prefer not to deal with women at all, let alone shake our hands. My male colleagues also know never to extend their hands to the wives of theses men if they meet. (I've never once met an Orthodox Jew in this context so it is not an issue as mentioned by a PP.)
OK, a few things incorrect about this post:

1. Canada is much less multicultural than the United States. You may have meant that Canada is more culturally sensitive, to which I cannot comment accurately and acknowledge that you may well be correct, but if you meant that Canada is actually more culturally diverse, you are not statistically correct.

2. Regarding men of Muslim faith, that does not apply because I am a man, but I deal with many men of devout Muslim faith who shake my hand regularly. I also work with many Muslim men and women who have adopted more Western customs and do not have that issue. Therefore, a Muslim man who refused to shake my hand would, indeed, not be a person with whom I'd do business as it would indicate biases with which I am not comfortable and therefore unwilling to work (and my firm is in the business of making a lot of money for our clients, so to that extent they play by our rules (or, more correctly, by our founder's rules, with which I completely agree)).

3. You are incorrect about all Jewish men not shaking the hands of women. Many Orthodox Jews will not, but trust me, there are many Jews in my business and many Jews as clients and we all shake hands regularly, including between genders.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by A_Princess'_Daddy View Post
Why? Because you're unlikely to encounter me, unlikely to encounter me in business, or because you don't like that I responded to your post?



OK, a few things incorrect about this post:

1. Canada is much less multicultural than the United States. You may have meant that Canada is more culturally sensitive, to which I cannot comment accurately and acknowledge that you may well be correct, but if you meant that Canada is actually more culturally diverse, you are not statistically correct.
I didn't quote any statistics nor did I make any direct comparisons to the United States or anywhere else for that matter. I'm not sure why you felt the need to correct a "mistake" I didn't make.
2. Regarding men of Muslim faith, that does not apply because I am a man, but I deal with many men of devout Muslim faith who shake my hand regularly. I also work with many Muslim men and women who have adopted more Western customs and do not have that issue. Therefore, a Muslim man who refused to shake my hand would, indeed, not be a person with whom I'd do business as it would indicate biases with which I am not comfortable and therefore unwilling to work (and my firm is in the business of making a lot of money for our clients, so to that extent they play by our rules (or, more correctly, by our founder's rules, with which I completely agree)).
...and as I specified, in my workplace the policy is to defer to the preferences of OUR clients. How you conduct yourself in your situation is irrelevant.
3. You are incorrect about all Jewish men not shaking the hands of women. Many Orthodox Jews will not, but trust me, there are many Jews in my business and many Jews as clients and we all shake hands regularly, including between genders.
And again as I mentioned in my post, a previous poster asserted that Jewish men don't shake hands with women. I specifically discussed Orthodox Jews.

And since we're so helpfully correcting one another, it's spelled MORES not MOIRES http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Social+mores. You're welcome.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ronandannette View Post
And again as I mentioned in my post, a previous poster asserted that Jewish men don't shake hands with women. I specifically discussed Orthodox Jews.

And since we're so helpfully correcting one another, it's spelled MORES not MOIRES http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Social+mores. You're welcome.
You are 100% correct! I apparently had an autocorrect error (and yes, I am more likely to have used "moires" in my e-mails, referring to the fabric style of which my wife is unfortunately rather fond of using for certain furniture and wall coverings, and I can only assume the phone turned "mores" into "moires" because "mores" is likely not used by most people tapping out an email but my phone has learned "moires" from my previous typing) but if we're going to get petty, you used the word "theses" in one of your posts, by which I assume you meant these, but perhaps you use the word "theses" at times, as well, to refer to your multiple dissertations? I can, after all, come up with a cogent explanation for my mistake...

And yes, I also mixed up my Canadians. Sorry about that!

As to your other rambling rant, which is not coming through on the quoting function, I'm confused because your post below, i.e.:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronandannette View Post
Quite a different environment to be sure; Canada in general is very multicultural and (whether we personally like it or not) in my workplace we are expected without exception to be aware of and defer to the comfort level of the clients. This is primarily an issue with Middle-eastern and Southeast Asian Muslim men who prefer not to deal with women at all, let alone shake our hands. My male colleagues also know never to extend their hands to the wives of theses men if they meet. (I've never once met an Orthodox Jew in this context so it is not an issue as mentioned by a PP.)
...seems to have relevance only if you are stating it to imply that Canadian culture is more multicultural than my culture, which is in fact incorrect. Not a big deal, obviously it struck a nerve with you, so I'll just move on, completely confused by what point you were trying to make...
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:41 PM   #28
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I don't shake hands period. If you extended your hand to me I would smile and say nice to meet you but would not shake hands.

I work with patients whose immunity is either severely compromised or totally not there. After seeing people wipe their nose, pick their nose or pull at their underwear, pick their teeth.... I think you get the point. I can't take that risk with the patients I work with.

I almost always have something in my hand so it is not a problem.
Does that mean you don't wash your hands when you are going to have contact with a patient? That should solve the germ problem. I am constantly washing my hands at work (nurse). You realize that everything else you are touching all day long has germs, not just peoples' hands, right?
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:54 PM   #29
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As a cultural obsession, I cannot think of anything more revolting than the handshake.

It originated in the western world before any understanding of how diseases spread. It was propagated by a supra-national religious government that considered it a sin to bath more often than necessary (understood to be once a month whether you need it or not). It's currently used most often as a power-play, primarily by people unable to assert themselves with their words.

I play the game though. There's a lot of unsavory things I have done in my adult life, squeezing a CFO's hand is not near the top (not anywhere near the bottom either).

I joke that having kids taught me that having someone else's poop on my hands is not the end of the world. It's true. Having the hand-sweat of my inlaws or some lawyer somewhere might gross me out but it's unlikely to kill me.

If I had my way, I would move us to a Japanese bow or (failing that) a Korean handshake, where you grip the forearm of the person and no their hand.

A wise Japanese professor once told me, "Americans reach their hand out and are thinking 'hello, welcome'. But Japanese see that hand and think of all the places it has been.

I mean yeah, that doctor is going to wash his hands before treating a patient; even so, you want to think about him groping toilet seats before your appointment? He washed his hands, there's no germs on them; the the image of him caressing a toilet seat is still in your head isn't it? Toilet seat ... human hand ... only difference is at McDonalds the toilet seat gets washed once an hour.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:27 AM   #30
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Does that mean you don't wash your hands when you are going to have contact with a patient? That should solve the germ problem. I am constantly washing my hands at work (nurse). You realize that everything else you are touching all day long has germs, not just peoples' hands, right?
Of course I wash my hands why would you ask such a silly question. But I will not shake hands with people who are doing all those gross things just to be "polite".

I'm not risking getting sick because others think rubbing their noses and other parts of their bodies and then shaking hands is appropriate.
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