Ths DIS is a great place to ask Disney Cruise Line questions and share tips.
Dreams Unlimited Travel - The official sponsor of the Disney Cruise Forums Dreams Unlimited Travel - the official sponsor of the Disney Cruise Forums  

Go Back   The DIS Discussion Forums - DISboards.com > Disney Cruise Line > Disney Cruise Line Forum
Find Hotel Specials & DIScounts
 
facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS UpdatesDIS email updates
Register Chat FAQ Tickers Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-24-2013, 03:52 PM   #451
manhattanman
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 297

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeppelin View Post
therein lies the debate- why did DCL leave port canaveral without letting local authorities on first to investigate the situation?
.
I guess they could claim that at the time they left they didnt yet have a good handle at what had transpired, and by the time they did they did what they were legally required to do ( turn him over to the authorities in the next port of call which happens to be the country the ship is registered in). In my non lawyer opinion, a lot really hinges whether he was deported then terminated, terminated then deported or simply allowed to leave the bahamas on his own volition and disney's dime.

The case I was alluding to previously, I dont think that the airline could be found criminally liable for a suspect fleeing prosecution, and even if they were made aware of the fact that one of their passengers was fleeing a jurisdiction who wanted him for questioning, I'm not sure the airline is compelled to turn the plane around.

And I want to be clear, although i am not fantastically comfortable with how DCL acted, I'm not sure if they did anything wrong, much less illegal. I further think that given the choice of subjecting the company to a charge of obstruction of justice vs letting whichever jurisdiction was deemed appropriate do whatever they wanted with the accused, they would serve that guy up on a silver platter. Disney certainly wants to protect its reputations and although I disagree with the notion of sweeping things under the rug to protect this reputation, i don't think Disney would chose to do something that would open themselves to a criminal investigation.

I think that really only disney knows whether they were doing what was required of them legally or whether they were trying to sweep this under the rug to keep this hush hush and even then I think there is enough for plausible deniability.
manhattanman is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 03:57 PM   #452
Rogillio
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by justmestace View Post
Let me just say the one thing I know for a fact about DCL Security. Not on the Dream, but on the Wonder anyway.
The HEAD of DCL Security stood in my stateroom and LIED to my face, in order to protect Disney Cruise Line. So did the hotel manager and the CD. I have witnesses who heard it all.

I will NEVER trust them again.

I don't hate Disney. I cruised with them the next year, just got back from Disneyland, and am cruising again next year. But I will never believe a word they say in any situation like this again.
I had direct experience with DCL security too. I got into a fight with a drunk guy in the Med over seats he was saving. (He kicked me in the head and I pushed him down!). The security guy was a retired FBI agent. He knew the law! This guys was no rent-a-cop! He talked to both of us and discussed our 'options'. We could either or both press assault charges and we would both be taken off the ship at the next port or we could be taken to he brig or we could make amends. I offered to make amends but the other guy was still mad. He let us o our separate ways. I fully expected to be before a judge in the morning but I guess he sobered up over night.

Point being, the security agents are not mall cops! This guy was a very wise senior FBI retiree and very capable.
__________________
WDW 4/98, Yellowstone 6/99, 4-day Bahamas DCL 6/00, Washington DC 6/01, WDW 1/02, Scotland 6/02, Alaska 6/03, 7-day Caribbean DCL 6/04, 4-day Bahamas DCL 1/05, WDW 1/05, Universal 3/05, Norway 6/05, NYC Waldorf-Astoria 10/05, Snowshoe, WV 12/05, China Adventure 3/06, WDW 6/06, Copper Mountain, CO 12/06, 11-day DCL Med Cruise 5/07, 4-day Bahamas DCL 10/07, 7 Day NCL cruise - Hawaii 7/08, Door County, WI 7/09, Snowshoe WV, 12/09, 12-day DCL Baltic cruise 6/10, 7-day Caribbean HAL 12/10, WDW 6/11, 5-day Dream NYE 12/11, 7-day Canadian HAL 6/12, 3-day Dream Jan 2013, 4-day Dream Feb 2013, 5-day CCL NOLA, 7 days hiking in the Himilayans, Katmandu, Nepal 5/14 7-day RCCL 7/14
Rogillio is offline  
|
The DIS
Register to remove

Join Date: 1997
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,000,000
Old 05-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #453
Zeppelin
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
Posts: 1,283

Quote:
Originally Posted by manhattanman View Post
I guess they could claim that at the time they left they didnt yet have a good handle at what had transpired, and by the time they did they did what they were legally required to do ( turn him over to the authorities in the next port of call which happens to be the country the ship is registered in). In my non lawyer opinion, a lot really hinges whether he was deported then terminated, terminated then deported or simply allowed to leave the bahamas on his own volition and disney's dime.
which would put Disney in an even worse PR position; they were alerted to a potentially serious criminal event happening on their ship but left before they had a good handle on the situation....

Quote:
The case I was alluding to previously, I dont think that the airline could be found criminally liable for a suspect fleeing prosecution, and even if they were made aware of the fact that one of their passengers was fleeing a jurisdiction who wanted him for questioning, I'm not sure the airline is compelled to turn the plane around.
true- but if the crime happened on the plane the airline could be criminally liable....i'm no lawyer either and don't know Florida/maritime law....

Quote:
And I want to be clear, although i am not fantastically comfortable with how DCL acted, I'm not sure if they did anything wrong, much less illegal. I further think that given the choice of subjecting the company to a charge of obstruction of justice vs letting whichever jurisdiction was deemed appropriate do whatever they wanted with the accused, they would serve that guy up on a silver platter. Disney certainly wants to protect its reputations and although I disagree with the notion of sweeping things under the rug to protect this reputation, i don't think Disney would chose to do something that would open themselves to a criminal investigation.

I think that really only disney knows whether they were doing what was required of them legally or whether they were trying to sweep this under the rug to keep this hush hush and even then I think there is enough for plausible deniability.
did they do anything illegal?? i'm with you and don't know....

as far as plausible deniablity and did anything wrong- based on the evidence at hand i disagree....
__________________
Zeppelin is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 04:25 PM   #454
billwald


Earning My Ears
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bay City, Michigan USA
Posts: 212

Reporter Tony Pipitone’s favorite quote:

"Believe none of what you hear, half of what you see, and everything you report."
__________________
billwald is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 04:33 PM   #455
Rogillio
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,034

Quote:
Originally Posted by billwald View Post
Reporter Tony Pipitone’s favorite quote:

"Believe none of what you hear, half of what you see, and everything you report."
That seems to be the case! I wonder if the report (with times doctored) came from a disgruntled employee? It always bothers me when all information comes from the same source. In this case from one reporter.
__________________
WDW 4/98, Yellowstone 6/99, 4-day Bahamas DCL 6/00, Washington DC 6/01, WDW 1/02, Scotland 6/02, Alaska 6/03, 7-day Caribbean DCL 6/04, 4-day Bahamas DCL 1/05, WDW 1/05, Universal 3/05, Norway 6/05, NYC Waldorf-Astoria 10/05, Snowshoe, WV 12/05, China Adventure 3/06, WDW 6/06, Copper Mountain, CO 12/06, 11-day DCL Med Cruise 5/07, 4-day Bahamas DCL 10/07, 7 Day NCL cruise - Hawaii 7/08, Door County, WI 7/09, Snowshoe WV, 12/09, 12-day DCL Baltic cruise 6/10, 7-day Caribbean HAL 12/10, WDW 6/11, 5-day Dream NYE 12/11, 7-day Canadian HAL 6/12, 3-day Dream Jan 2013, 4-day Dream Feb 2013, 5-day CCL NOLA, 7 days hiking in the Himilayans, Katmandu, Nepal 5/14 7-day RCCL 7/14
Rogillio is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #456
justmestace



Thinks California needs Disney cruise ships!
Has snorkeled all over the Bahamas and the Caribbean
 
justmestace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Cave Creek, Arizona
Posts: 26,992

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogillio View Post
I had direct experience with DCL security too. I got into a fight with a drunk guy in the Med over seats he was saving. (He kicked me in the head and I pushed him down!). The security guy was a retired FBI agent. He knew the law! This guys was no rent-a-cop! He talked to both of us and discussed our 'options'. We could either or both press assault charges and we would both be taken off the ship at the next port or we could be taken to he brig or we could make amends. I offered to make amends but the other guy was still mad. He let us o our separate ways. I fully expected to be before a judge in the morning but I guess he sobered up over night.

Point being, the security agents are not mall cops! This guy was a very wise senior FBI retiree and very capable.
I AM glad to know that the security guys can break up a fight, and help keep people safe. Really, I mean that. But in my case, they told me that they had video footage of the accident that I had onboard, and that they knew which CM was responsible for it, and that when I got home and contacted the "on land security" department, that they would help me process a claim to my insurance company, and help negotiate any kind of refund. They also told me that there was an incident report, that would be mailed to me, but it never was. The "on land" (or whatever it's called) security person I talked to also said there was NO video tape.

So all I'm saying is that if anything ever happens to me, one of my family members, or a friend, onboard a ship (any ship) I will never trust their word that they will "help me" and "take care of everything".
justmestace is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #457
Zeppelin
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
Posts: 1,283

Quote:
Originally Posted by justmestace View Post
I AM glad to know that the security guys can break up a fight, and help keep people safe. Really, I mean that. But in my case, they told me that they had video footage of the accident that I had onboard, and that they knew which CM was responsible for it, and that when I got home and contacted the "on land security" department, that they would help me process a claim to my insurance company, and help negotiate any kind of refund. They also told me that there was an incident report, that would be mailed to me, but it never was. The "on land" (or whatever it's called) security person I talked to also said there was NO video tape.
out of curiosity- did you get the name of the "they" who told you that? also-did you follow up?? not trying to be a wise guy, rather learn from your experience....
__________________
Zeppelin is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 05:35 PM   #458
SapphireMind
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 179

This is part of the topic that is difficult to think/talk about and upsets many people.

She was fondled and kissed. Wrong? Absolutely. Illegal? Completely. Different from what could happen on a subway? Or in a middle school? Not really. Guarantee that most dudes who cop a feel on subways or whatever are not up for felony charges. It doesn't make them right or ok, but as the survivor of abuse said, sometimes the reaction to it can make an even bigger impact on the damage done.

As a devil's advocate position: In the subway, middle school and possibly even this situation, the child could even be far more traumatized by adults acting like it is a big trauma. She would have had her vacation cancelled, because she would have been taken off the ship with the accused. Again, not saying what happened was right, but there are different levels of assault and sexual assault. The law would treat it differently.

Call me cynical, but even if he was off the ship in the US, if the girl and g-ma didn't skip their vacation to stay and make the report, he would be sent back to India. If they did stay and make a report, most likely he would get a plea bargain and sent back to India after a few months in jail in the US.
__________________
RCI Independence of the Seas JoCo Cruise Crazy 4
Disney Wonder Feb 8-12 2009 // Carnival Magic May 6-13 2012 // RCI Freedom of the Seas Feb 10-17 2013 // Disney Magic May 10-18 2013
SapphireMind is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 05:39 PM   #459
manhattanman
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 297

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeppelin View Post

did they do anything illegal?? i'm with you and don't know....

as far as plausible deniablity and did anything wrong- based on the evidence at hand i disagree....
It might be that your beef is with nautical law, not disney. If the rules of the sea are that upon finding compelling evidence of illegality that the protocol is to detain the accused and turn him/her over to the cops at the next port of call, then they did what they were supposed to. That does not mean you have to like it, but it also might mean that disney is not at fault.

This happened right before departure. it it had happened half way to nassau no one would say peep, what disney did everyone would support.
What if it was a 1/4 of the way to nassau ? what if it was 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/32 ? I'm afraid that you are never going to get a consesnus at which point the captain has a moral obligation to turn the ship around and go back to port so I think this falls into a grey area. I also dont think that it is practical to ask the captain to drop anchor at every allegation of illegality that occurs on the ship.

I think that disney is in a hard spot here, and although it is easy to infer some sort of malice a lot of times people make decisions based on the information they had at the time that in retrospect they would probably not.

It would have been great had disney detained the accused in the brig, gotten back to pc and then let the florida cops have a go at him. but my understanding is that they cant hold him against his will once they get to another port, they either have to hand him off to the local cops there or let him go, they cant detain him indefinitely until they get back to florida. once he was off the ship and the bahamanian cops would not ( or could not) arrest or detain him, he's perfectly within his rights to fly back to india. The fact that disney payed for it looks bad but if its a contractual obligation, then its a contractual obligation.

i would imagine that disney will modify the employment contracts to absolve them of having to pay to return employees to go home in the event they are terminated for a variety of causes, independently of whether there are formal charges brought or not.
manhattanman is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 06:01 PM   #460
manhattanman
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 297

Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphireMind View Post
This is part of the topic that is difficult to think/talk about and upsets many people.

She was fondled and kissed. Wrong? Absolutely. Illegal? Completely. Different from what could happen on a subway? Or in a middle school? Not really. Guarantee that most dudes who cop a feel on subways or whatever are not up for felony charges. It doesn't make them right or ok, but as the survivor of abuse said, sometimes the reaction to it can make an even bigger impact on the damage done.
This guy was an employee, not some random dude/perv on the subway or in a middle school. If your saying that people would brush off a teacher/custodian or principal who fondled an 11 year old student and forceably kissed her on the mouth and pass it off as a minor thing that isnt worth traumatizing the kid over, I'm glad my kids don't go to that school.

have we become so jaded as a society that we can rationalize not doing everything possible to see that adults who prey on children don't see the full brunt of the legal profession ? this wasnt two kids of different age fooling around, this was an adult fondling an 11 year old girl. that's never acceptable irrespective of whether it traumatises the child or not, and there are somethings that should be punished exclusively on the intent, not the extent of the damage done.

And I'm sure that doing a few months in a us prison as a pedophile is no walk in the park. It might not be rehabilative, but its a hell of a lot closer to justice than thumbing your nose at the girl from half a world away as you post to facebook.

I'm not mad at you and I understand you position that there are many girls and women who have gotten it way worse, but that doesnt give this guy a pass in my book. it just doesnt. You cross the line we come after you both barrels, you dont get to plead for leniency because there are worse people who more egregiously crossed that line. I dont care if you ( not you personally off course) are the worlds " best" pedophile, your still a pedophile.
manhattanman is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 06:10 PM   #461
Otter49
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: A few miles away
Posts: 596

From the DCL website:

"As required by the Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act of 2010, the following information is provided as part our commitment to your safety and security."

"Disney Cruise Line has zero tolerance for crime on board its vessels. On international voyages that embark or disembark in the United States, Disney Cruise Line is required by federal law to report on board felonies and missing U.S. nationals to federal agencies. For a missing U.S. national and all serious felonies (homicide, suspicious death, kidnapping, assault with serious bodily injury, sexual assaults as defined by federal laws, firing or tampering with the vessel, or theft of money or property in excess of $10,000) the incident must be reported to the F.B.I. by telephone as soon as possible, to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security electronically, and to the U.S. Coast Guard in writing. These requirements apply to incidents that occur on board in U.S. territorial waters, or on the high seas or in foreign waters if the assailant or victim is a U.S. national."

This info is then followed with phone numbers for the FBI, Coast Guard, and numerous local law enforcement departments, including Port Canaveral.

I wonder if these reports were filed. I'm guessing not since DCL doesn't show up in Q3 2012 reporting on the Coast Guard website.
__________________
Don't Look Back - You're Not Going In That Direction
Otter49 is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 06:19 PM   #462
Zeppelin
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
Posts: 1,283

Quote:
Originally Posted by manhattanman View Post
It might be that your beef is with nautical law, not disney. If the rules of the sea are that upon finding compelling evidence of illegality that the protocol is to detain the accused and turn him/her over to the cops at the next port of call, then they did what they were supposed to. That does not mean you have to like it, but it also might mean that disney is not at fault.

This happened right before departure. it it had happened half way to nassau no one would say peep, what disney did everyone would support.
What if it was a 1/4 of the way to nassau ? what if it was 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/32 ? I'm afraid that you are never going to get a consesnus at which point the captain has a moral obligation to turn the ship around and go back to port so I think this falls into a grey area. I also dont think that it is practical to ask the captain to drop anchor at every allegation of illegality that occurs on the ship.

I think that disney is in a hard spot here, and although it is easy to infer some sort of malice a lot of times people make decisions based on the information they had at the time that in retrospect they would probably not.

It would have been great had disney detained the accused in the brig, gotten back to pc and then let the florida cops have a go at him. but my understanding is that they cant hold him against his will once they get to another port, they either have to hand him off to the local cops there or let him go, they cant detain him indefinitely until they get back to florida. once he was off the ship and the bahamanian cops would not ( or could not) arrest or detain him, he's perfectly within his rights to fly back to india. The fact that disney payed for it looks bad but if its a contractual obligation, then its a contractual obligation.

i would imagine that disney will modify the employment contracts to absolve them of having to pay to return employees to go home in the event they are terminated for a variety of causes, independently of whether there are formal charges brought or not.
we may never know- but i think Disney put themselves in a hard spot rather than finding themselves in a hard spot...had they called local authorities immediatelyand authorities respond, "we have no jurisdiction" then that part of the conversation is no longer up for debate...according to the timeline shown, DCL had reason to believe the allegation was true before the Dream left port...
__________________

Last edited by Zeppelin; 05-24-2013 at 06:28 PM.
Zeppelin is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 06:25 PM   #463
Zeppelin
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
Posts: 1,283

Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphireMind View Post
This is part of the topic that is difficult to think/talk about and upsets many people.

She was fondled and kissed. Wrong? Absolutely. Illegal? Completely. Different from what could happen on a subway? Or in a middle school? Not really. Guarantee that most dudes who cop a feel on subways or whatever are not up for felony charges. It doesn't make them right or ok, but as the survivor of abuse said, sometimes the reaction to it can make an even bigger impact on the damage done.

As a devil's advocate position: In the subway, middle school and possibly even this situation, the child could even be far more traumatized by adults acting like it is a big trauma. She would have had her vacation cancelled, because she would have been taken off the ship with the accused. Again, not saying what happened was right, but there are different levels of assault and sexual assault. The law would treat it differently.
disagree completely...

what happened to this girl is similar to a teacher sexually abusing a school child or a pastor/priest doing the same...

in the CM she saw someone she thought she could trust, though could help her but instead it was worse than she could imagine...as far as trauma- i could imagine how the girl felt the rest of the cruise whenever she saw a male CM, never mind any CM that had a resemblance to her assaulter...

Quote:
Call me cynical, but even if he was off the ship in the US, if the girl and g-ma didn't skip their vacation to stay and make the report, he would be sent back to India. If they did stay and make a report, most likely he would get a plea bargain and sent back to India after a few months in jail in the US.
you could be correct- but at least the guy would've had a record, likely as a sexual predator, which would be a huge scarlet letter around his neck in a lot of countries....
__________________
Zeppelin is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 06:26 PM   #464
Zeppelin
DIS Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
Posts: 1,283

Quote:
Originally Posted by manhattanman View Post
This guy was an employee, not some random dude/perv on the subway or in a middle school. If your saying that people would brush off a teacher/custodian or principal who fondled an 11 year old student and forceably kissed her on the mouth and pass it off as a minor thing that isnt worth traumatizing the kid over, I'm glad my kids don't go to that school.

have we become so jaded as a society that we can rationalize not doing everything possible to see that adults who prey on children don't see the full brunt of the legal profession ? this wasnt two kids of different age fooling around, this was an adult fondling an 11 year old girl. that's never acceptable irrespective of whether it traumatises the child or not, and there are somethings that should be punished exclusively on the intent, not the extent of the damage done.

And I'm sure that doing a few months in a us prison as a pedophile is no walk in the park. It might not be rehabilative, but its a hell of a lot closer to justice than thumbing your nose at the girl from half a world away as you post to facebook.

I'm not mad at you and I understand you position that there are many girls and women who have gotten it way worse, but that doesnt give this guy a pass in my book. it just doesnt. You cross the line we come after you both barrels, you dont get to plead for leniency because there are worse people who more egregiously crossed that line. I dont care if you ( not you personally off course) are the worlds " best" pedophile, your still a pedophile.
couldn't have said it better...in the CM she saw someone she thought she could trust or go to for help in a time of need...
__________________
Zeppelin is offline  
Old 05-24-2013, 06:43 PM   #465
SapphireMind
Mouseketeer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 179

I just highly doubt that the guy would have any sort of a felony conviction. He'd get protected from the other population because he wouldn't be in the big prison yet because he wouldn't have been convicted yet. And again, frequently, our solution to criminals from other countries is to just send them back where they came from.

None of that justifies anything, but I find it hard to get nearly as worked up when he has probably the same result even if it had been done through FL police.
__________________
RCI Independence of the Seas JoCo Cruise Crazy 4
Disney Wonder Feb 8-12 2009 // Carnival Magic May 6-13 2012 // RCI Freedom of the Seas Feb 10-17 2013 // Disney Magic May 10-18 2013
SapphireMind is offline  
Closed Thread



Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

facebooktwitterpinterestgoogle plusyoutubeDIS Updates
GET OUR DIS UPDATES DELIVERED BY EMAIL



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Copyright © 1997-2014, Werner Technologies, LLC. All Rights Reserved.