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Old 05-20-2013, 01:06 PM   #46
doconeill


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Oh, the sociology papers that could be written...

I'm wondering if we've reached some sort of tipping point. Many of us have been on here for long enough and remember enough that we've heard most if not all of the arguments before, seen that nothing has come of them despite how absolutely certain the source may have been, seen even Disney officially announce things that never happen (which reminds me - what happened to the DC resort?), that when we hear it all again, we just have to refute it right away. And perhaps we ARE getting more snippy about it.

But as I said before, at the same time, people posting these things have been taking offense far too easily - even before any true negative posts have been made. I've even considered whether they may even be calculated posts to elicit the reactions they decry, as if to prove a point. I doubt it, but the number of similar posts and reactions lately has been pretty high.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:51 PM   #47
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Ha...am I the only one that LOL'd when Peter_Pirate put up a post about the board becoming too "sunshine and lollipops" and he was immediately hit with 10 people saying "lighten up, dude".



A couple of opinions, I think when the "Rumor and News" forum was off on it's own, it was frequented by a lot less people, and those people tended to be more pessimistic towards Disney. Since moving to the "Trip Planning Forums", a much more heavily traffic part of the site, these are the more optimistic group of posters.

However, I tend to think both sides have a tendency to take things WAAYY too personally. If you are rebutting against a comment someone else made, they are as likely to take it as a personal offense to you disagree.

I tend to be more on the positive side. Having been around awhile, I would say Peter_Pirate 2 tends more towards the negative, but he has some well thought out posts, and sometimes speaks in defense of Disney's decisions as well. I enjoy debating him over issues, as well as many others.

My point would be, we really should not dismiss someone just because they are always negative or always positive on Disney. It is no different from political debate. I have friends that have very opposing political views from my own, and I KNOW I am never going to change their mind. It doesn't make me stop wanting to debate them.

So, as Rodney King once said "Can't we all just get ALONG?"

Edit: Spelling police: It is DISSENT not DESCENT.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:51 PM   #48
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A few items to point out here. First off, I don't think there's a big conspiracy by Pete Werner and the disboards moderators to suppress all the Disney nay-sayers on these boards at all. I'm sure most of you have listened to the podcasts and know that when there's something that Pete doesn't agree with Disney on and feels needs to be said about Disney, how they operate, etc. he does not hold back. When the civility gets left at the door is when things usually get shut down for bit. I personally have not seen any active suppression on these boards.

Second, at some point you just determine the negative energy or posts, or whatever just aren't worth your time. I don't post a ton, but have been around here for a long time and usually chimed in on topics to voice my displeasure. Well, I just don't have that much time for that any more. I wonder if it's the same for others. To follow up on that philosophy, my wife & kids vacation less at Disney because there's other places we'd like to see and other things we'd like to do. Negative energy only gets you so far.

Last, we're not in the Pressler / Harris / last stages of Eisner era anymore and thus there's just not as much bad to talk about.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:36 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Many of us have been on here for long enough and remember enough that we've heard most if not all of the arguments before, seen that nothing has come of them despite how absolutely certain the source may have been, seen even Disney officially announce things that never happen (which reminds me - what happened to the DC resort?)
Disney backed out and sold the property.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e190_blog.html
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:38 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewisc View Post
There are some Disney "apologists" (maybe not the right term) who like to lecture on economics. I think at least some of those posters are just quoting slogans, others may be knowledgeable.
Their points can be summarized:
1) Disney is a for profit, publicly traded, company and has such has to maximize (short term) profits.
2) Disney has spend a lot of money on market research and analyzing their customers. We can't possibly know more then Disney. We should not be so presumptuous as to think our experience and articles we've read is close to good enough to even comment on Disney, let alone second guess.
3) Disney current results (or historical results when Disney was down) proves point 1 and 2.

Those points have some validity. Accept all 3 points and there really isn't any basis for discussion. We're left with people lecturing other on economics and not about Disney.

There are companies like Four Seasons, Nordstroms, COSTCO (to some extent) and Apple which exceed in customer service. The do far more then the minimum required by law in order to keep their customers and attract new customers.

There are companies like Spirit which has no interest in doing anything for customer service. Spirit believes their customers only book if the price is right and every dollar spent on customer service, other then whats required by law, is money which is wasted.

I've read Disney discovered they could charge room rates at the GF for close to 5* (4 Seasons) prices without having to spend the money on staffing, and amenities, required to offer a 5* experience.
You hit the nail on the head.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:11 PM   #51
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OOO!! OOOOOO!!! OOOOOOOOOO!!! My Turn!!





Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
What's going on on the DIS? It appears that all Disney naysayers are being targeted for extinction.

Just look at all recent threads where any negative Disney comment is made and you will see numerous rebuttals of the ferocious variety that are simply Rah, Rah, Disney is MY park sentiment by posters who generally have very few previous posts. I smell a Mickey Rat.

Come on Pete Werner, if you want all dissention gone just tell us.

I don't expect Pete to comment but I'm sure the apologists will arrive shortly.
Honestly, I'm thinking it's a combination of several factors.

1. The Rumors and News forum used to be a lot more hidden on the Dis. With it's move to a more prominent location, combined with the concerted effort by Thommy and Pete to boost the profile of the Rumor and News section of the park.... We get a LOT more people here than we used too.

2. For us oldtimers.... both old time R&N folks.... and Even Old-Time DIS folks.... there are certain topics, rumors, and questions which we've heard a million times before. We've Discussed them, or their core issues a millions times before. And then you get people who are newer and haven't run across one of those threads before.... and instantly you've gone a touched a sore subject without ever meaning too. (And a topic search doesn't help considering the very fluid way some of the topics around here flow and end up discussing topics completely different than that in the subject)


So ultimately, We have a LOT more people showing up here and trying to participate in the conversation. (never a bad thing).

Out of those people, We have:

* those who may be hardcore Disney fans who believe Disney can do no wrong... and will defend by any means against anyone who says otherwise

* Those who mean well...But step on one of those patently unique DIS-Landmines which result in all sorts of vitrol. [pool hopping/ GAC or ECV Abuse/ Reusing Resort Mugs/ etc etc etc]

* Those new to the Rumors and News who post the latest rumor they heard, which we have all heard a million times before. End result: Either some of us can come across a bit harsh in our blunt 'not gonna happen' responses because we don't feel like rehashing old conversations.... or someone takes it personally when we basically blow off their exciting, groundbreaking, totally epic news.

* And quite honestly..... We can have totally reasonable people stop by here who just aren't used to the level of debate [on a topic like Disney no less] we can have around here, and the passions that show on both sides, and who may end up taking things a little more personally than they were meant to.


And that doesn't even mention that some of us around here have very distinct personalities and beliefs, And therefor with more people joining into the conversation, it's only natural that some of those people (pro and con sides of the debate) may end up rubbing someone else the wrong way.


So based off what I've seen, I won't necessarily say that I've seen a HUGE change in the overall conversation around here, or a conspiracy theory against those who may not come across as 100% pro Disney.... But I have seen new Voices.... and I've seen some posts which treat reoccuring rumors or popularly held beliefs/opinions (which have been shot done as incorrect in past discussions with this group) as gospel.... And I've seen new people create posts with rumors and presented them as fact, complete with older members being extremely blunt [to be point of easy internet perception of their being mean] in telling them they are wrong.... And I've seen a few people who when they've had their argument backed against a logical wall, start resorting to circular arguments and possible name calling (on both sides) in an attempt to 'win' the internet debate.

Ultimately.... it's all a matter of perception.... both in the debates we have around here, and the way we handle the informaiton that conflicts with our opinion going into those debates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flashcal View Post
I just wonder why the people who want to complain and bash Disney don't go to one of the I Hate Disney type websites out there. There are plenty of them FYI.
This is clearly a fan board, and people don't take kindly to bashing the very reason they are here in the first place.
And as for being attacked. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. I'm nothing but a fan. I don't have that many posts. I am not a troll, but a grown woman who adores Disney and I have been called a liar, a homosexual, a troll, a high school boy, and more. All by haters and negative people who collectively hang out here to bash anyone they can get their hands on in a gang style attack. People who have witnessed this have messages me to say they were sorry, it was so bad.
I have no sympathy for this OP at all. Just leave if you don't like it and find a website to hate on Disney on with the rest of the haters, if that's what you enjoy doing.
Honestly, I think that it's BECAUSE we are such big Disney fans that you see some of us become so very critical about Disney, or our perception on how they've been handling certain situations.

If we just hated Disney, I doubt many of us would put as much effort into our arguments or trying to get others to see out points.

As it is, At least in my case... I Love Disney. I get crap all the time about how I'm such a huge Disney fan. I've been going to Disney since I was a kid.... and Continue to do so now that I'm an adult and am blessed with the ability to go on a regular basis. But I'm also starting to see all the ways which the Disney that I grew up to love... and continued to love and be a fan of in my adult years, Has changed or stopped putting the effort into some of the things that helped me fall in love with it. I can be extremely critical of some the ways I see Disney as resting on it's laurals, or cheating it's past or future in the name of immediate profits.... but at the same time, I'll usually give credit were credit is due. I also still have, deep inside, the hope that Disney will right the ship and get back to doing what I believe they are capable of doing.

I see an empty shell of a Wonders of Life Pavilion, and it makes me want to cry. I see Disney give us a great new Omnimover attraction, and I love the detail they put into it and it's show building..... They I see them publically patting themselves on the back for "This amazing and totally groundbreaking experience they've brought us", And feel like slapping them and asking how they can consider a clone groundbreaking? Or how can they call repurposing land that was in use as part of an attraction's lagoon and showbuilding when the park opened, but which has been an empty field behind the public areas for the past 10yrs an "Expansion"?

I see the effort being put in by the little guys down the street in expanding the experiences for their guests, and I have to ask why Disney is cutting back on the experiences they give us?

If we didn't love Disney so much, It wouldn't hurt us so much to see them wasting their potential and becoming so lazy at times. And around here, it's often the place were we can express those feelings, and in the conversations we have, maybe help people see what we are talking about.

Sometimes, just like with some big names in sports, It takes those who love the thing (the game : The parks) to know enough about what they are capable of ( The Star Player : The Disney Company ), to be able to see how they are not putting the effort in, and who then have to help others see what's going on in order to have any hope of the situation ever changing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
Locked out, I don't always agree, but you do make one think now and then.

DC To Tall does it to!

First, I don't feel descent is insulting.....rudeness, sneakiness, being nasty and looking down on other peoples opinion is insulting. Resorting to using name calling to try and defend a opinion is the lowest form of arrogance. I find you and DCtotall don't do this and still make your points.


AKK
Wow!! I get a shout out??




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
There was no trap...but if you don't want to explain yourself that is your right. If your having some fun at my expense by talking in riddles, that's ok to, that doesn't bother me.

Your statement was negative, its certainty wasn't positive, but that doesn't make they negative opinion bad!

As to the siding scale....I disagree and explained why, I feel the service is great, The overall package is what makes the Disney resorts high quality.


AKK
Here's the way I look at it when it comes to the Onsite Disney Hotel value/quality argument.

There are pretty well established guidelines as far as what kind of quality and services warrant the 1 Star or Diamond... to 5 Star or Diamond type ratings.

You then look at the costs you would pay on average for a hotel/resort of each rating, in a decent tourist area.

In that.... Disney still doesn't add up.

first off.... Even Disney's Flagship GF won't qualify for a true Deluxe 5 Star rating, and yet they charge high end 5 star prices.

You'll see the service level/price mismatch across the board. Even if you use those standard industry rating criteria, and give Disney a little extra wiggle room due to the fact it's Disney, It can STILL be hard to justify the cost to stay in some of their onsite hotels.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:42 PM   #52
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Wow! This is still percolating?
Well, thanks to LewisC, Mrs.R, Skier Pete, Doc and a few folks new to me. It's nice to be understood. Locked and DC, did we part company?

Tonka, I see I am not one of your favorites. Sorry.

I'm sorry my short fuse irritates people. I am very consistent in that regard though but you are wrong to confuse my disenchantment with this Disney as hatred of all things Disney or all things possible by Disney. For those who think me just negative, pardon me for being miffed at the fact that you haven't noticed my complete acceptance and many posts in hope for what Avatar could bring to AK.

But I must say that if you're going to dismiss my postulations as negative and expect not to be dismissed yourself, please bring some thought and reason to the table first. "My family just loved it" is no legitimate argument. To illustrate I will use my personal feelings of French cuisine. I don't much like it. It doesn't taste good to my palate but I would NEVER review it as "bad" simply because my family and I didn't like it. It's a question of educated palate that I realize I don't have. It doesn't make me lesser than those who appreciate those finer things, but I understand they have a different perspective.

Regarding this different perspective, it doesn't mean I am right either. Naturally I will post my opinions assuming I am right but prove me wrong and I will commend you. Remember I have gone from Disney-apologist to Disney antagonist in my course of time here. How did that happen?
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:32 PM   #53
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I had to laugh when I saw the title for this thread. " No negative posts".
All this thread is full of is negativity. It's funny how the very same people complaining about how negative everyone is, are the very ones doing most of the complaining.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
A couple of opinions, I think when the "Rumor and News" forum was off on it's own, it was frequented by a lot less people, and those people tended to be more pessimistic towards Disney. Since moving to the "Trip Planning Forums", a much more heavily traffic part of the site, these are the more optimistic group of posters.
I agree with this.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:27 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
first off.... Even Disney's Flagship GF won't qualify for a true Deluxe 5 Star rating, and yet they charge high end 5 star prices.
There's one point I'd like to make here.

The prices Disney charges are the prices the market bears. Are there $400 a night hotels the level of a $400 a night hotel in most places. Probably not.

But there are other places where $400 a night doesn't get you what you would think. Tokyo & Paris come to mind.

Even NYC you would pay $200 for a pretty crappy hotel room, whereas here in Buffalo you would get the top hotel room in the city for $200.

It's all about LOCATION.

Disney charges $120-$140 a night (value) for a $80 a night room in most places.
They charge $180-$230 a night (moderate) for a $130 a night hotel room in most places.
They charge $300-400 a night for a $200 a night hotel room in most places.
They charge even MORE when you are at holiday time.

Ya know what - turns out your staying at Disney world, they can charge more than it's "worth", because they can get it.

I can't really tell you if the Grand Floridian is as nice as the Plaza or a comparable 5-star hotel. I can't afford 5-star hotels ANYWHERE.

I will tell you this, staying at the values (Pop) and the moderates (CBR, POFQ) that I have, I can tell you that the service and cleanliness I have experiences is better than what I would get at a Super 8 (value) or Marriot (moderate) that I've stayed at elsewhere. The one deluxe I've stayed at (DVC) I was NOT impressed with the level of service. I don't know if it was because we were staying on points, or what it was, but thought that the level of service was NO BETTER than the moderate or value (which were Very, Very good) and therefore I was expecting more.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:11 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_pete View Post
There's one point I'd like to make here.

The prices Disney charges are the prices the market bears. Are there $400 a night hotels the level of a $400 a night hotel in most places. Probably not.

But there are other places where $400 a night doesn't get you what you would think. Tokyo & Paris come to mind.

Even NYC you would pay $200 for a pretty crappy hotel room, whereas here in Buffalo you would get the top hotel room in the city for $200.

It's all about LOCATION.

Disney charges $120-$140 a night (value) for a $80 a night room in most places.
They charge $180-$230 a night (moderate) for a $130 a night hotel room in most places.
They charge $300-400 a night for a $200 a night hotel room in most places.
They charge even MORE when you are at holiday time.

Ya know what - turns out your staying at Disney world, they can charge more than it's "worth", because they can get it.

I can't really tell you if the Grand Floridian is as nice as the Plaza or a comparable 5-star hotel. I can't afford 5-star hotels ANYWHERE.
True, Different areas will charge different amounts. It usually comes down to things like availability and Location. (space is at a premium in NYC, so it's understandable that hotel rooms would cost more just like in-city living would..... Same with many other large cities which charge a premium within the city).

For my personal comparison, i'm just looking at the Orlando area. It wouldn't be fair to compare a Disney hotel rate to a NYC where there is barely room to walk sometimes, let alone build new hotels. It also wouldn't be fair to compare Disney rates to an Asheville, NC, an area that isn't going to have the same kind of demand or tourist traffic. So I'll compare Disney with the surrounding area.

Now... Again, It won't be fair to compare the Pop to the EconoLodge on 192. Location, and honestly, the level of upkeep for Disney, will give it a premium over some of the cheaper motels offsite. I'll even give Disney a premium over some "Like" accomodations offsite due to Disney transportation and the location/amenaties. It still becomes hard to justify though.

Example 1: Waldorf Astoria Orlando... Located in the Bonnet Creek area Literally next door to the Pop and AoA. Comparing a "basic" 2-bed hotel room for 2 adults and 2 kids from June 16-22.

Waldorf: $247/night or $1482 total, including all taxes and resort fees.
Pop Century: $165/night, or $993 total.

At this point location is a moot point, and the Waldorf definately is a MUCH nicer hotel with a higher quality of service than the Pop. Most places you'd expect a Waldorf to cost much more thatn the $80/night than someplace of a Pop style quality/service.

Example 2: a much more direct comparison. The Dolphin vs. the Beach Club. Non-Disney Deluxe vs Disney Deluxe. Both located on Crescent Lake behind EPCOT. Both able to walk to the Studios and International Gateway. Both have access to the boat transportation. Same dates.

Dolphin: $235/Night or $1411 Total, including the "service Package" fee.
Beach Club: $459/Night or $2754 Total.

You literally pay almost twice the amount for the Disney Name at the hotel located just next door between the Dolphin and the International Gateway, and get the same onsite Disney transportation benefits [hell... the Swalphin shares a bus with the Other Epcot Area Deluxe's on a regular basis]. You also don't earn any sort of loyalty program points at the Disney Hotel, and there are people who'd consider the Dolphin to have superior service and Quality to the Disney Deluxes.




It honestly becomes EXTREMELY difficult for me to find any real justification for the onsite Disney pricing when compared to quality and service levels when I see these kind of numbers.... beyond the simple "The masses will pay it, so why not".
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:33 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bocaj1431 View Post
I had to laugh when I saw the title for this thread. " No negative posts".
All this thread is full of is negativity. It's funny how the very same people complaining about how negative everyone is, are the very ones doing most of the complaining.
Bingo! Foxes guarding the hen house so to speak.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:41 AM   #58
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Wow!! I get a shout out??




No problem, you do present good opinions and ideas!

PS I still disagree about the quality of the WDW resorts and have stated the location thing.......but this debate has been beat to death now.


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Old 05-22-2013, 07:47 AM   #59
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Tonka, I see I am not one of your favorites. Sorry.

Peter I have no problem with your opinions or feelings about Disney, good or bad........Honestly!

It fact you would be surprised that I agree with you sometimes!

What I find upsetting is the idea that so folks dismiss and mock the opinions/ideas of people in favor of some Disney issues as apologists and therefore their opinions are bias, unfair and dismissed!

I have no problem standing my ground!

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Old 05-22-2013, 10:04 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
It honestly becomes EXTREMELY difficult for me to find any real justification for the onsite Disney pricing when compared to quality and service levels when I see these kind of numbers.... beyond the simple "The masses will pay it, so why not".
Actually - it's even funnier when you think that you can stay in a room on DVC points for about $200 a night rather than pay the $400 a night the general public pays.

But it DOES come down to that statement. The Swan is half the price...yet the Beach Club is still always full. Why?

"The masses will pay it, so why not"

And it's NOT really the masses paying $400 a night. I earn a very nice living and can't afford $400 a night for a hotel. It's the well-off that are paying that. Maybe not the 1 %, but it's certainly the top 5 % of the US population.

The "masses" are staying at a value, or I-drive.
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