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Old 05-16-2013, 02:38 PM   #61
doconeill


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Originally Posted by dadddio View Post
It is unacceptable to abuse these accommodations. That doesn't mean that they have found that the was an abuse. Ou are reading into that statement more than there is.
No, I'm not reading more into it. They haven't necessarily found a problem actually occurring, but if what is being reported IS occurring, it would appear that Disney does indeed consider that a problem and will deal with it.

You can say it is not a problem all you want. It's whether Disney says it is that matters.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post

No, I'm not reading more into it. They haven't necessarily found a problem actually occurring, but if what is being reported IS occurring, it would appear that Disney does indeed consider that a problem and will deal with it.

You can say it is not a problem all you want. It's whether Disney says it is that matters.
It is about whether Disney believes there is a problem. Is not whether you think that it appears that they think there is a problem or whether someone thinks this breaks some sort of unwritten societal rule.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:58 PM   #63
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It is about whether Disney believes there is a problem. Is not whether you think that it appears that they think there is a problem or whether someone thinks this breaks some sort of unwritten societal rule.
Now you're just trying to turn it around back on itself to make an argument.

Disney has stated that it is unacceptable to abuse the accommodations, and they are investigating. If there is indeed abuse, then it is a problem, and Disney will take action.

It has nothing to do with whether I believe that they believe that there may be in someone else's belief...yadda yadda yadda.

I'm noticing a pattern...official statements from Disney don't seem to mean much to you. You just want to argue about definitions of particular words with people who don't hold your opinion. As such, there is no reason to carry this one on.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post

Now you're just trying to turn it around back on itself to make an argument.

Disney has stated that it is unacceptable to abuse the accommodations, and they are investigating. If there is indeed abuse, then it is a problem, and Disney will take action.

It has nothing to do with whether I believe that they believe that there may be in someone else's belief...yadda yadda yadda.

I'm noticing a pattern...official statements from Disney don't seem to mean much to you.
That is simply untrue. I actually prefer to rely on official Disney statements, rather than what others believe those statements 'appear' to mean.

Regarding this issue, you said it yourself. Abuse if Disney policies is unacceptable. Disney is looking into it to see if there was any abuse. That doesn't mean that there was or wasn't abuse.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:44 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Now you're just trying to turn it around back on itself to make an argument.

Disney has stated that it is unacceptable to abuse the accommodations, and they are investigating. If there is indeed abuse, then it is a problem, and Disney will take action.

It has nothing to do with whether I believe that they believe that there may be in someone else's belief...yadda yadda yadda.

I'm noticing a pattern...official statements from Disney don't seem to mean much to you. You just want to argue about definitions of particular words with people who don't hold your opinion. As such, there is no reason to carry this one on.


Again you made your point and backed it up.........I totally agree!


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Old 05-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dadddio View Post
A GAC is not a GAC. They give various accommodations based on a guests individual needs. Also, a guest who is in a wheelchair but has no other needs would not get a GAC, at all, since the accommodations that he needs is obvious.

The rich person in the article paid for a tour guide, so she apparently received touring services not just access with the handicapped tour guide.

Also, there is no abuse here. People who are touring with a guest who is in a wheelchair use whatever line that guest uses. This isn't abuse.

Finally, your economic theory idea doesn't work because these people actually don't have an advantage. In fact they can have a fairly real disadvantage (beyond the obvious).
Thanks for answering the GAC question, I think? Yes a person with money paid a tour guide. a tour gude that is advertised on a site that mainly accomidates challenged children and adults touring WDW, or Universal, or Sea World, or a DUde Ranch, or several other trips. In a seperate section of their web page they list VIP tours. They will assit with ADR's making a touring plan and act as your tour guide to speed you through lines using their knowledge, FP's, and a special method that is quicker than even the FP line. Many are assuming that the quicker method is a GAC. The tour guide featured is the one from the articla and has auto immune deficiency which means she tires quickly and use a scooter to lead her tours. I have no issue with that, but obviously the quicker than FP statement menas she uses the GAC. Hence my question, are there varying forms of a GAC? because she has no outward signs of a disability and is a young attractive woman that at first sight has no problems at all one would not see outward signs of the condition.

Now from what I read and have seen and been told on several boards here on the DIS by others all you need to acquire a GAC is to go to guest services and ask for one based on your condition. Others have said they don't ask for a doctors letter, they take you at face value and issue the GAC based on what you tell them.

As far as my economic arguement it is obvious the woman from the article was paying for something above and beyond the touring capabilities of a healthy tour guide. My economic theroy is based on the fact that the guide she uses has a condition that allows her to perform services beyond that of a normal tour guide. With that revelation it could prompt otherwise healthy individuals to que up at guest services each morning saying they had a miriad of conditions that warrented a GAC. If so and everyone with no moral objections to do so would then collect a GAC for their day in the park thus completely devaluing the services of the guide from the article.

To me that is pretty straight forward. However the unintended consiquinces of so many peoples actions could lead to the individuals who truly need those accomidations either not receiving them or receiving much less of them or even force them into longer lines and longer waits.

I think what I am saying is fairly straight forward.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:00 PM   #67
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Also, there is no abuse here. People who are touring with a guest who is in a wheelchair use whatever line that guest uses. This isn't abuse.

Finally, your economic theory idea doesn't work because these people actually don't have an advantage. In fact they can have a fairly real disadvantage (beyond the obvious).
It's been quoted only family members and friends are allowed to accompany a person in a wheelchair. It's been said the policy doesn't include paying customers. The article in the the NY Post said her paying customers were pretending to be her friends and not paying customers.

I don't know if Disney has a policy not allowing guides not employed by Disney, commercial use.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:02 PM   #68
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It's been quoted only family members and friends are allowed to accompany a person in a wheelchair. It's been said the policy doesn't include paying customers. The article in the the NY Post said her paying customers were pretending to be her friends and not paying customers.

I don't know if Disney has a policy not allowing guides not employed by Disney, commercial use.
I can't find anything official regarding the relationship between a person in a wheelchair and his party.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:15 PM   #69
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My children enter with us because we dont want them to be separated. But when I see grown adults all clammering to follow their disabled family member when they could just as easy get in the regular line it makes me mad.
If the idea is that they should separate parties that don't have children, that's not going to happen. The disabled guest should ride alone? Or if they're allowed to bring one person with them, wait for the rest of their party after the ride? I get if they have 20 people with them...but they're not going to separate a small group.

Quote:
It's been quoted only family members and friends are allowed to accompany a person in a wheelchair. It's been said the policy doesn't include paying customers. The article in the the NY Post said her paying customers were pretending to be her friends and not paying customers.
And how are they going to know, stop every party and ask if the disabled member is family, friend or paid tour guide? They could do that but is it worth doing? The party could lie just as easily as not and how do you get proof? They don't have to pretend she's a friend, because nobody's going to ask.

In this case they could put a photo of this gal up in every cast breakroom and say that if you see her in a boarding line have to ask her if she's really got her family with her or if she's leading a tour, I guess. Annoying to have to put that on the cast members. I agree she's probably using a GAC. They could also deny her access to GAC. It appears that she actually does have a disability, but she may be using the fact that she does as a selling point for her clientele. Tour with me, I'm required to be accommodated with shorter lines.

I remember that story awhile back that Disneyland had so many annual passholders using GAC and going into the Fastpass lines that they had huge Fastpass lines for the Radiator Springs Racers, and they started giving GAC users a "fastpass" to come back later, at about the same time as they would have waited in the standby line. That kind of procedure would solve the problem.

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Old 05-16-2013, 09:46 PM   #70
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I can't find anything official regarding the relationship between a person in a wheelchair and his party.
The fact that we can't find it doesn't mean the policy doesn't exist. It might be in a CM guide. A possible rule banning private guides might be buried in the fine print.

Likewise the fact that some posters said such a policy exists doesn't mean it does.

Years ago Soutwest allowed family pre-boarding and didn't offer things like EBCI. A parent was literally "renting out" her kids (BWI) so passengers could pre-board. She discovered she violated a variety of rules not commonly known.


The fact that the families were told to lie and pretend they were relatives of the guide suggests such a policy, written or otherwise, might exist.
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And how are they going to know, stop every party and ask if the disabled member is family, friend or paid tour guide? They could do that but is it worth doing? The party could lie just as easily as not and how do you get proof? They don't have to pretend she's a friend, because nobody's going to ask.

In this case they could put a photo of this gal up in every cast breakroom and say that if you see her in a boarding line have to ask her if she's really got her family with her or if she's leading a tour, I guess. Annoying to have to put that on the cast members. I agree she's probably using a GAC. They could also deny her access to GAC. It appears that she actually does have a disability, but she may be using the fact that she does as a selling point for her clientele. Tour with me, I'm required to be accommodated with shorter lines.
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Assuming such a rule exists enforcement might be spotty. The same person showing up a couple of times a week with a different group each time? Kind of obvious.

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:23 PM   #71
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Assuming such a rule exists enforcement might be spotty. The same person showing up a couple of times a week with a different group each time? Kind of obvious.
It would surprise me if the average CM working a line would be able to remember and identify any specific person from day to day. They simply deal with far too many people every single day to remember them, even if they wanted to, which they probably do not. Even if the CM did recognize the person, he/she would have to choose to either stop the person and have a confrontation about something that they likely care little about or let it go and have a bit less stress in his/her day. It's not too hard to imagine which option the average CM would choose.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:24 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by MakiraMarlena View Post
I remember that story awhile back that Disneyland had so many annual passholders using GAC and going into the Fastpass lines that they had huge Fastpass lines for the Radiator Springs Racers, and they started giving GAC users a "fastpass" to come back later, at about the same time as they would have waited in the standby line. That kind of procedure would solve the problem.
I agree that this would be the cleanest solution for this problem.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:50 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by MakiraMarlena View Post
I remember that story awhile back that Disneyland had so many annual passholders using GAC and going into the Fastpass lines that they had huge Fastpass lines for the Radiator Springs Racers, and they started giving GAC users a "fastpass" to come back later, at about the same time as they would have waited in the standby line. That kind of procedure would solve the problem.
That's basically what I mentioned earlier, except linked into the nextgen technology to automate it for all needed attractions. But you also need to place limitations, otherwise it still provides an advantage if you can go around and collect them at different attractions...which is why I propose you can only get one at a time, and not another one until it is used or expired - regardless of how far away it is (if the line is really 2.5 hours, you can't get one for 2.5 hours). And perhaps a smaller return window. Make it a real "virtual position" in line.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:05 PM   #74
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This is one that really infuriates me. My wife has Progressive MS and is relegated to a wheelchair. We have 4 children ages (14,12,7 and 2) when we go to DW we always see the alternate acess area for wheelchairs being abused by normal very capable of walking families. My children enter with us because we dont want them to be separated. But when I see grown adults all clammering to follow their disabled family member when they could just as easy get in the regular line it makes me mad. I have seen the look CM's give these groups as well, it is like they are thinking the same thing. We are going next summer and have been talking about just using FP to get around all of the drama.

I'm confused. You don't think those other "normal, capable of walking" family members should be allowed in the alternate access area, it makes you mad, but your entire family of 6 is? Are you a grown adult, capable of walking? Your post indicates only your wife's disability. If you are, then why are you any different than them? Because you don't want to separate the children? I'm guessing those other families don't want to be separated either. And why should they, or you? Families should be able to ride together, whether or not they have a disabled member. I just thought your post was a tad odd, as if you felt entitled to ride with your wife (and all 4 children), but other adults shouldn't have that same courtesy. Maybe I misinterpreted?
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:34 AM   #75
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Someone mentioned going in the exit at Haunted Mansion. That was changed with the last renovation. The line and Stretching Room are now totally accessible and guests with wheelchairs and ECVs enter the Mansion in the same way as other guests.
AFTER going thru the stretching rooms with everyone else, while other guests are using the regular boarding area, guests using ECVs and wheelchairs wait in a hallway to be directed to the exit for boarding. This is so their wheelchair or ECV will be waiting or them when they get off. Other guests board in one place and exit at another.

25 years ago, many lines were not wheelchair accessible, but almost all of the newer attractions (and many of the older ones) are accessible in the regular (Mainstream) line.
So wheelchair or ECV = front of line has not been true for a long time. Even when there were many attractions with special arrangements for guests using wheelchairs, that didn't always men shorter wait, just a different place to wait.

Since Small World was mentioned in the article with a "one minute wait" .......

This picture shows the handicapped line for Small World.

It is required to be used by guests with mobility devices (like wheelchairs) because the regular line is not accessible. It is also used by some guests with GACs. In our experience, often over 1/2 of the guests/groups using it are using it for that reason - they don't have a mobility device.
This picture shows a time when the wait was similar or possibly slightly shorter than the wait in the 'regular line.' The handicapped boarding area is toward the left side of the picture, down at the bottom of the ramp.The ramp at the top of the picture is part of the regular line. The ramp people are coming up on the right of the picture, toward you is the exit.

This picture show Small World at a time when the wait in the handicapped area was longer than the wait in the regular line.

My family was at the bottom of the ramp, waiting to get on. The picture is taken from the opposite direct compared to the first picture, looking toward the entrance and exit.
The ramp on the far left of the picture has the people from the handicapped area who will get on the next 2 boats. The regular boarding area is on the other side of the clock - on the other side of the water.
The ramp in the middle is the exit ramp. The ramp to the far right of the picture is the handicapped line and it went all the way to the entrance and out the gate at the top. People who did not have wheelchairs might have had a shorter wait in the regular line ( in this case, they would have since we saw the people who were just ahead of us entering the regular line get on way before us).

These are some more pictures of Small World that show a longer wait.
The posted wait time for the regular line was 25 minutes and you can see people, at least in this part of the regular line you can see, are widely spaced.


This is the handicapped line at the same time.

The actual entrance to handicapped line is way up where you can see a man and woman in orange shirts. It extends from the front of this picture all the down the ramp that is shown in the pictures in the previous post. All the people to the right of the photo are also part of the handicapped line.
The regular entrance is where you can see a sign in the background, between the heads of 2 people with orange hats.
In this case, people in the handicapped line will be waiting longer.
And, the extra wait can be much longer. One recent trip, my DH and DD had gone to Small World while I went on something DD is not able to go on. I know what time they got into line because DH texted me when they got in the line.
When I arrived at Small World, they had already been waiting for 25 minutes in the handicapped line. I could not get to them since they were in the bottom 1/3 of the handicapped line ramp shown in the picture and the handicapped line ramp was full all the way to the top.
I got in the regular line and planned to meet them later - DH was going to get DD something to drink while they waited for me to be done. 20 minutes later, I got on a boat - 3 boats behind them.
So, I waited 20 minutes (which was the posted time). They waited 45.
They did have to wait for a wheelchair accessible boat, but hadn't let 3 groups who didnt need the wheelchair boat from behind them in that line go past to board, so their wait in the line was not increased more than a few minutes by needing the wheelchair boat.
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