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Old 05-10-2013, 06:02 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
Just to throw in my $.02.... The bolded section above actually mentions some of the things that are my biggest fears about FP+.

In general, I am someone who very much just likes to "go with the flow" with my Disney trips. I am not a huge planner because I never know what I might be in the mood for that particular day in advance. I may do a basic outline (this park this day... maybe an ADR or 2 for something I really want to do), but ultimately I tend to have a VERY relaxed approach to touring Disney. Also, after my first trip with my son last year, I realized that my traditional relaxed touring style is much more compatible when traveling with a child than my Wife's family's traditional much more structured Disney planning. There was no way we would've been able to maintain any sort of schedule between his desires to eat, or get cranky, or basically just needing to take him someplace cool and quiet for awhile to allow him to unwind.

The Current fastpass system is doable. i may get 2 or 3 fastpasses (tops) per day based off when I swing by an attraction, but I spend a lot of time doing Standby lines between waiting for a fastpass window to open, or just wanting to experience an attraction as I'm near it and the mood strikes.

But the current Fastpass system already had some drawbacks. For many of the rides at WDW, when they put in the Fastpass queue, They bypass the entire preshow within the queue that the imagineers worked so hard on which helped set the story for the attraction you were about to experience. the Fastpass also ended ended up having a negative effect on the standby lines on some attractions. (Just look at Peter Pan. That ride pre-Fastpass might have a long line, but it always moved and the overall wait wasn't that bad even during busy times. post-fastpass, Even during slow times you are looking at 1hr or more for the standby line and a large portion of that time is spent just standing still)

So here are the problems I have....

1. Doubling the Fastpass capabale attractions. Seriously... what attractions currently don't have fastpasses that really need it or would benefit from it? You are basicaly running into Disney shoe-horning Fastpasses into attractions like the Country Bear Jamboree or the Tiki room which never had a need for Fastpasses to begin with. Worse, Like with the Bear's, Disney has decided to drastically alter the show (for the worse) in order to try and shorten the runtime so they can shove more showtimes in, and more fastpasses.

2. Increased fastpass capacity. They aren't doing anything to increase the capacity of the rides, so if you are increasing the fastpass capacity, you've got to take it from the standby capacity. It wouldn't take much to completely screw this up and take a ride that you can realistically do standby with a 30min wait, and have that standby wait time balloon to over an hour with the same number of people in the standby line.



With #2.... You aren't just impacting those who may not want, be aware of, or have the ability to pre-plan every fastpass (Locals, people like me who don't like to plan every detail months in advance, any number of last minute travelers or first timers who don't even realize "Disney World" consists of 4 major parks and is larger than Manahattan Island).... but you are impacting those who may enjoy experiencing attractions multiple times (can't do back-to-back rides with fastpasses), or who may have kids or other members of their party which throw off a schedule (temper tantrums, illnesses, needing to take time away from crowds/heat/input).

The biggest danger is IMHO Disney going so far into the side of needing to pre-plan every detail of your trip that they completely remove the ability to be truly spontaneous on your vacation. (Disney telling you to be spontaneous with a "surprise Fastpass" or coupon or offer doesn't count as true spontaneity. )
~Great post. I don't like criss crossing the parks for the sole purpose of collecting fastpasses -- this is very time consuming and does not compliment my style of touring. I much prefer to tour a land in its entirety. But, fastpass in its current state does not afford me this luxury -- instead I have to leave Tommorowland and cross the park over to Frontierland just to pull a fastpass then head back over to Tommorowland and then head back over to Frontierland. Also, I have no control and no way of "predicting" prior to entering the parks, my exact return window and what time I will be allowed to pull another fastpass. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. This is not my definition of "relaxation" -- it's taxing & time consuming -- and in late August multiply this by ten.

~I respect your opinion and realize that FP+/Magicbands won't appeal to or benefit everyone but the concept will accommodate my preferences far better than what we currently have. I can plan a much more efficient trip by having my FP's in advance. My Disney vacation consists of much more than riding Splash Mountain 25 times or spending countless hours running from FP machine to FP machine. I look forward to touring the parks at my leisure without having to chase down fastpass after fastpass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonorailLime View Post
DCTooTall, I understand your concerns completely. Again, though, until MyMagic+ is deployed and has a few months of operation, we won't know what the end result is in FastPass ratios. And while not everything needs FastPass, many visitors are foreign or first time visitors - Guest who are unfarmiliar with the offerings of parks.
I, personally, love Living With The Land. It's a great way to relax and kill some time. However, this attraction goes unnoticed by many of the aforementioned Guests, who (based on MyMagic+s personal assessments) may also enjoy this attraction. Think much bigger. Think about a system that tries to make sure that everything you do is enjoyable.
I believe the end result is (hopefully) to direct Guests to things they would enjoy - remotely educate them.
Disney has not yet released the final policies on MyMagic+, so there is still no knowledge of how many fastpasses you can prebook, or how it will work. I simply say we need to wait until the program is out to pass judgement. Until then we should be excited and hopeful that the program is both beneficial, and sustainable.

On a side note, if we all love these places so much we should remember that Disney is not an operation we could direct. Though we all think we could do better, we are not the Board of Directors, industrial engineers for the company (although someone may be) and don't know the true operational challenges that these places face. The Magic Kingdom is the buisiest theme park in the world with a capacity in the high 60,000s that closes regularly during peak times. They need to do something. They have bigger plans than we know, and its not our place to assume we know better than them.
~Excellent post. I'm not to going to obsess over the worst possible case scenario as if it will be the norm. I've seen this sentiment expressed before with online ADR's, online check in, Magical Express and none of it turned out to be as bad as the predictions. I heard that people were very upset about the current fastpass when it was first introduced, because of how it impacted standby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco View Post
I think a big point of the FP+ system is being overlooked. Disney has stated several times that the next gen system would ultimately increase the amount of rides a person would get to experience in a day (something like 12 to 14).
When you have more rides to choose from and to reserve ahead of time it is naturally going to spread out crowds more evenly across the park. This means less waiting time spent at pinnacle attractions for everyone.
Also keep in mind that the original negative publicity surrounding this system was whether it would track you going number 1 or 2 while in the potty. No matter how much people, like myself, tried to alleviate all the tin foil hat wearer's fears it persisted until more facts came out and/or were discussed. I believe the continuing heated disdain is partly due to this original irrational fear.
I am really looking forward to this new system.
~Great post! Very well said. Fastpass+ will play out far differently than the doomsday predictions, imo. I've been following FP+ from the day it was announced and I've seen all of these so called "predictions" miraculously change as new information comes forward. I haven't had to change mine, everything I've predicted is falling right into place right down to the timeline.
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:36 AM   #47
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Now as an offsite guest, his rationale just does not work. I will if anything...feel jipped, if I can not get on the rides I want because the FP's have all been booked by onsite guest and I have to say this makes other parks look more attractive. I will be more likely to have less days in Disney, because I want to see Discovery Cove, Sea World, Universal and maybe even Busch Gardens.

I do not think this will spread out crowds across the park, because we all want to ride the rides we want to ride. The top rides, will stay the top rides!
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by eeyorepixie View Post
Now as an offsite guest, his rationale just does not work. I will if anything...feel jipped, if I can not get on the rides I want because the FP's have all been booked by onsite guest and I have to say this makes other parks look more attractive. I will be more likely to have less days in Disney, because I want to see Discovery Cove, Sea World, Universal and maybe even Busch Gardens.
Off site guests will still be able to participate in FP+/MDE. Prebooking of FP+ slots will be available to anyone who purchases their ticket media in advance and has it shipped to their home (including via authorized resellers). Whether or not a user was able to prebook, there will still be opportunities to add and change FP+ selections inside the park.

Quote:
I do not think this will spread out crowds across the park, because we all want to ride the rides we want to ride. The top rides, will stay the top rides!
Just because the top rides are the top rides doesn't mean Disney will allow all of the available prebookings for any given ride to be at the same time. Furthermore, with the active RFID transmitter in the Magicband and sensors throughout the parks, Disney will be able to see things like maybe too many Magicbands detected in Frontierland, so 1/4 of those detected receive a surprise Fastpass to Hall of Presidents (window starting immediately), another 1/4 of those MDE users get a coupon for a free Dole Whip valid for the next two hours, and another 1/4 receive a surprise Fastpass for Buzz with the window starting in twenty minutes. All of these delivered by push alert through the MDE app for smartphone users or by text message for non smartphone users. Sure some might not get the message, some intentionally didn't get sent an offer, some might not care about the offer they received, and there are non-Magicband users in the area still, but there would be a significant effect on crowd levels in Frontierland due to the measures taken by MDE. And all of that is before taking into account that prebooked FP+ slots for each attraction are going to be spread evenly throughout the day which already provides a certain measure of crowd distribution control.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:33 AM   #49
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Last I heard, it was not known for sure that fp+ would be available same-day in the park. Has any official word been released?
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Angel Ariel View Post
Last I heard, it was not known for sure that fp+ would be available same-day in the park. Has any official word been released?
No. Very little official information is available.

There were lots of discussions a while ago about the mathematics. It depends a LOT on the adoption by those capable of doing the planning.

If they make the entire pool of time slots available for pre-booking, then it is possible to exhaust the slots on the headliners prior to the day in question. Almost certainly for popular times.

If they don't, then it becomes a competition among the pre-bookers to get the limited slots available (much like for ADRs), but then the remainder will be available in the park on that day for those who didn't pre-plan. This is the more likely scenario.

Limiting how many you can pre-book (which we do know), and forcing tiered choices that even further limit headliner choices (which seems likely based on all prior tests), will probably limit the pre-bookers from being able to take too many choice slots anyways.

A remaining question is how will additional FP+ be treated in-park - can you then pre-book a later slot that day, or will it be the traditional first slot available? If the latter, it might not solve the problems like the TSM Dash...

Another...can you get a same-day FP+ for an attraction that you already have/had for an attraction that was pre-booked?
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:43 AM   #51
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I think that FP+ is a great idea in theory, but it may well detract (although of course not yet known) from our spur of the moment trips which we enjoy so much. We might end up spur of the moment it over at the Portfino and US and only doing WDW when we have time to prep, with our work schedules, that can be challenging
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:56 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Ariel View Post
Last I heard, it was not known for sure that fp+ would be available same-day in the park. Has any official word been released?

Nope. And after all the debates and discussions, all the fear and dread, all the specualation that has gone on here and even moreso on the theme parks board....it pretty much all hinges on the answer to that question.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:02 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
No. Very little official information is available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcd2745 View Post
Nope. And after all the debates and discussions, all the fear and dread, all the specualation that has gone on here and even moreso on the theme parks board....it pretty much all hinges on the answer to that question.
That is what I thought. That's why I was a bit surprised to read this:

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Originally Posted by SuperDan523 View Post
Whether or not a user was able to prebook, there will still be opportunities to add and change FP+ selections inside the park.
It's stated so much like it is absolute fact, and I didn't think it was yet. Thanks for reassuring me that I'm not misremembering
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Angel Ariel View Post
That is what I thought. That's why I was a bit surprised to read this:



It's stated so much like it is absolute fact, and I didn't think it was yet. Thanks for reassuring me that I'm not misremembering
You can DEFINITELY change while in the park, we know that from the terms and conditions. Nothing official has been said beyond that.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:18 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
You can DEFINITELY change while in the park, we know that from the terms and conditions. Nothing official has been said beyond that.
I knew you could change..the quote mentioned adding as well, that's what I was referring to.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:19 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Angel Ariel View Post
I knew you could change..the quote mentioned adding as well, that's what I was referring to.
Right, just pointing out the part that is know vs. the part that is not confirmed.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:36 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
I'm also not going to look at "look at what it can do/Add!", instead I'm trying to keep myself just looking at what it's immediate impact is or will be. These would be items like the reports we had earlier this year from people reporting 2hr Standby times as they were trying to "tweak" the fastpass system by letting in 1 Standby family per 10-20 Fastpass groups.
The issue there was not that SB waits were long. The issue was that the SB waits were significantly longer than the posted wait times.
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
So based off this logic, SURE.... Disney can do all sorts of wonderful things to educate guests about some of the hidden treasures they may have skipped in the past... but they are much more likely to shove more fastpasses thru Toy Story Mania even if it pushes that 2hr standby time to 4 hrs.
The simple fact is, increasing the number of FPs per ride will not drastically increase wait times as you theorize because these FP users will come from the SB line. By implementing a one-FP-per-ride-per-day rule, they open up FPs to a much larger number of guests. These guests come from the SB line. Most of these guests are not going to rejoin the SB line and endure a long wait for a ride that they FPed, so the average wait time decreases.

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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
Who expects an MBA to understand "the true operational challenges" they face in moving millions of guests around the property on a daily basis, and also ensuring that Casey's has enough hot dogs on hand to meet demand without wasting any food?


There are way too many moving parts involved in running these parks to assume someone with a business degree without the benefit of hands on experience on the front lines is going to be able to truly grasp the realities. Sadly, the days of someone working their way up from the front lines to those upper management levels are no longer with us like they used to be.
Your post is written as if by someone with an axe to grind against people who earn their MBAs and go on to positions of authority. As someone who does have an MBA, I can tell you that I work very hard to ensure that my decisions take into account front line realities. Also, as someone who knows a little bit about Disney park management, I can tell you that they do their best to consider these realities, also. While that doesn't, of course, mean that evry decision made is going to please you personally, that doesn't change the reality.

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Originally Posted by CuteAsMinnie View Post
Insofar as "free Dining" is actually free.
'Free Dining' should generally be considered based on it's overall effect on the total vacation cost, just like any other special offer. I suspect that not all guests really run the numbers with and without to see if it is a good deal for them, but that's their loss.

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Originally Posted by Angel Ariel View Post
Last I heard, it was not known for sure that fp+ would be available same-day in the park. Has any official word been released?
I'm pretty sure that it has been stated that they would be available in-park as part of the same-day ticket purchase discussion, but it hasn't been clear if this translates to someone who prereserved FPs being able to obtain additional FPs.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:32 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by dadddio View Post
The issue there was not that SB waits were long. The issue was that the SB waits were significantly longer than the posted wait times.
The simple fact is, increasing the number of FPs per ride will not drastically increase wait times as you theorize because these FP users will come from the SB line. By implementing a one-FP-per-ride-per-day rule, they open up FPs to a much larger number of guests. These guests come from the SB line. Most of these guests are not going to rejoin the SB line and endure a long wait for a ride that they FPed, so the average wait time decreases.
Really? Cause I know of a LOT of people who might do something like fastpass Space or Big Thunder.... Go thru the standby to ride once, and then use their FP for a quick second ride.

Also don't underestimate the guests who see a ride and decide right then and there to ride the attraction.

not everyone is a planner, so not everyone is going to get their FP's before the trip. Not everyone has a smart phone, and will think(or be able) to quickly grab a FP+ when they realize they are in the mood to ride xyz attraction.

Not everyone is going to be AWARE of the FP+ system and how it works. Fastpass as it exists now has been around for years without any major changes.... and information on the FP system is EVERYWHERE, including on all the park maps..... Yet how many times do you hear of someone complaining about those "people skipping the line because they paid for the front of the line benefit"? FP+ won't change the lack of awareness by some guests.

And depending upon the Kiosk locations, there will be times when if your choice is to hike to a kiosk to get FP's for everyone for this attraction, or to just hop in line, They are just going to hop in line.



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Originally Posted by dadddio View Post
Your post is written as if by someone with an axe to grind against people who earn their MBAs and go on to positions of authority. As someone who does have an MBA, I can tell you that I work very hard to ensure that my decisions take into account front line realities. Also, as someone who knows a little bit about Disney park management, I can tell you that they do their best to consider these realities, also. While that doesn't, of course, mean that evry decision made is going to please you personally, that doesn't change the reality.
.

Na, My post was in DIRECT response to the comment that was made about how we don't know "all the true operational challenges" of running the theme park.... and that just because someone is on the board of directors or a position of authority over the parks, doesn't mean they fully grasp those concepts either. It's the nature of the beast. WDW is too large for a single person to understand every little detail.

I don't expect someone with an MBA to fully understand all the civil engeering that comes into play when talking about the road network and the various transportation options and issues that need to be factored into moving all those people around. I Do however expect them to have a general understanding of concepts, and the know and use the resources available to them (such as their civil engeers).


That being said..... I could easily see someone in a marketting position being the type who brainstormed the idea behind FP+'s, and thinking (such as you) that an extra fastpass slot automatically means 1 extra person out of the Standby line. Those marketting people however aren't necessarily going to have access to the same on-the-ground resources as someone in a different position, since it's not in the normal direct wheelhouse..... so we end up with a small disconnect. But even still... Just because the numbers and data project one thing, doesn't mean the on-the-ground reality is going to be the same thing. FP+ is new, and hasn't been done before. They may project one thing.... and in their small trials, the numbers may even support those projections..... but that small margin of error on the trials may be nothing now, but when expanded to a full rollout could translate into a major unintended impact.

(And in all honesty.... places like the DIS won't help, because as soon as any sort of way to game the system is discovered, it will quickly become public knowledge.... ex. the old saving your fastpass until the end of the day tactic)
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:45 PM   #59
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Just to clarify with some statements on this site. I a currently in Epcot and spoke with a Cast Member from a team Disney is calling "Park Support." This is the team responsible for facilitating the roll-out of MyMagic+ to individual areas.
The Cast Member stated that Disney has NOT released any policy on same-day fast passes, and that three was used exclusively for pre-booking tests only. The Cast Member stated that in the future, the standard policy of holding one FastPass at a time (with the exception of the 2 hour return limit) should stay in place. The exception, he stated, was that you can get a FastPass on a mobile device rather than criss-crossing the park to get one.
Granted, it's a Cast Member, but seeing as he is on the team deploying MM+, I'm going to say he knows more than anybody on this forum.
Again, he stated that Disney HAS NOT announced any policy for FastPass+ and that 3 was for a pre-booking system test ONLY.
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:19 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
That being said..... I could easily see someone in a marketting position being the type who brainstormed the idea behind FP+'s, and thinking (such as you) that an extra fastpass slot automatically means 1 extra person out of the Standby line.
i'll not bother replying to your entire very long post because I am using my iphone. However, I believe that two points are important. First, Disney management almost certainly knows more about the situation than some guy on the internet who doesn't even know how MM+/FP+ will work. Also, it should be noted that if you stop people from going through the FP line multiple times, you will certainly take people from the SB line. As for your point that some people will use a FP and go through SB, they are the exception. For every one of them, I give you those people who state that they refuse to wait in a SB line over 20 minutes and previously went through the FP line multiple times.

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