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Old 05-01-2013, 04:03 PM   #31
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I've said here before that it is my biggest regret. I've loved doing hair and it has been good to me but I wish I would have went to college. I was college material and just did not want to work that hard in school or apply myself. I'd hate for your DD to make that same mistake.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:04 PM   #32
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I think it's hard to tell about the struggling, because while she might be feeling "stupid" now, she also used to spend much more time doing homework. Things did come relatively easy to her, but she used to also apply herself, so it's sort of a chicken/egg thing. She'll enrolled in honors courses this year, but obviously won't be next year.

She's much more caught up in the teen drama/social stuff of course, which is a huge distraction.

She's got some very smart kids in her class and they all like to brag about how they don't study, don't work at it, etc., which she believes. I've talked to some of their parents and know this is just teenaged bragging. Most of the kids getting good grades are working at it and many of them have "Tiger Mothers," but of course my kid thinks it's just that they are brilliant and she isn't capable.

I had two types of kids in my classes, ones who worked all day and night and had no social life and the others who did not have to crack a book and got As. I did not want the first part and I wasnt one of the second type. I struggled to figure out who I was. I was suddenly "dumb" I was actually far from it but I did not know how to apply myself bc I never had to and I did not have parents motivating me bc neither of them had gone to college.
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But for some kids, it is black or white. Ugh, so frustrating.

My nephew once told me in HS that "it is not cool to be smart." He had a group of friends who were very friendly competitive but other than them and teachers, it was just a negative. Isn't that sad?

Anyway, we went through that "not cool" thing with DD is 8th grade. She would never do anything to ruin her grades but she'd do just enough (like turn in things late) so classmates would not think she was "goody goodie" and too smart.

So, it could be related to that type of thing--social pressure or sorts.

Maybe she needs a nice summer job doing some hard work to make her rethink her options.
My family owned a motel when I was growing up and I grew up cleaning motel rooms. I knew I did not want to do *that* kind of work for a living--it is just old hard work.

As you know, I'm a hairdresser (30 years in June, ack!) and I made that decision as a 15 years HS sophomore (well, that was the year I started the program). I struggled FR year with Algebra (made B's and C's) and decided it was all too hard and that I was not going to go on to college.

I've said here before that it is my biggest regret. I've loved doing hair and it has been good to me but I wish I would have went to college. I was college material and just did not want to work that hard in school or apply myself. I'd hate for your DD to make that same mistake.
This was another thing I greatly struggled with, only 1 of my friends were in class with me. I would go to parties on the weekends with my friends and no one knew who I was bc I was in the Honors classes. I felt like a dork and it was not cool to be smart at the time. There were 4 of us that would be at the parties and in the Honors classes and we use to laugh about it on Mondays.

College was a big turn around for me as well bc people actually respected being intelligent and getting good grades.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:08 PM   #33
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What worked for us, to a degree, was motivational things vs punishment.

We took a similar approach. I know you said you took away electronic devices as a punishment, but we tried to couch it differently as a motivator. My 15 year old's phone was a huge distraction. He would spend time that he should have been doing homework or studying instead texting or playing games on his phone. So, rather than taking his phone away as a punishment for an extended period of time, he had to earn it back each evening. So, each evening after dinner his phone went away and he had to go through and tell us all of his assignments for that day. Then, he had to complete all those assignments and show them to us before he got his phone back. There was a short term motivation for him to get in and get it done and get his phone. It worked for us. He was quick to get in and get things done and his grades have improved. I think to some degree he was worried we would sit there and read all his texts. I do feel your pain though. It wasn't and still isn't particularly fun to have to police him in this way.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:33 PM   #34
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The problem is not that these kids are not smart enough, I think the main problem is that the majority of middle schools in this country do not prepare students well enough for high school level classes.

DD15 attended an amazing out of district charter school until 8th grade. She worked very hard and often had a lot of assignments and papers every night. It was tough for a few years, especially when she could see her friends from our local middle schools hardly ever studied for tests/exams.

She started freshman year taking all honors and some junior level classes. She is doing great in high school (ranked first in her class of over 500). She says that most kids in her classes are struggling with basic skills in math and sciences. These are very smart kids who received awards in 7th and 8th grades, but were not prepared well for high schools. DD misses all her great teachers from her middle school.

OP, I think your DD needs a great tutor. She has shown that she can learn in the past, it is just hard for her to see that things doesn't come easy to her like before.

Last edited by disneypharm; 05-01-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:47 PM   #35
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We took a similar approach. I know you said you took away electronic devices as a punishment, but we tried to couch it differently as a motivator. My 15 year old's phone was a huge distraction. He would spend time that he should have been doing homework or studying instead texting or playing games on his phone. So, rather than taking his phone away as a punishment for an extended period of time, he had to earn it back each evening. So, each evening after dinner his phone went away and he had to go through and tell us all of his assignments for that day. Then, he had to complete all those assignments and show them to us before he got his phone back. There was a short term motivation for him to get in and get it done and get his phone. It worked for us. He was quick to get in and get things done and his grades have improved. I think to some degree he was worried we would sit there and read all his texts. I do feel your pain though. It wasn't and still isn't particularly fun to have to police him in this way.
That's also making my head explode. She's at an age where we ought to be backing off supervising her studying. We never really had to pay that much attention to it at all in the past. Now to get her to do anything, we have to be helicopter parents when she should be stepping forward.

I've tried the "earn it back" approach too, for things like her phone. She just says, fine, ruin my social life completely and see if I care.

Oh, and I should have mentioned, dh is a high school science teacher. He is perfectly capable of teaching her most of what she needs, but she just doesn't cooperate. She says she doesn't have any homework or comes up with a million reasons why she has to work on something else and not the problem subjects. She'll watch the occasional Kahn academy video, which is nice, but if you don't then do some problems it doesn't really help.

On one level, I get this. My dad was an engineer, and I would stab myself in the eye with a fork rather than have him help me with my math homework.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:52 PM   #36
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The problem is not that these kids are not smart enough, I think the main problem is that the majority of middle schools in this country do not prepare students well enough for high school level classes.

DD15 attended an amazing out of district charter school until 8th grade. She worked very hard and often had a lot of assignments and papers every night. It was tough for a few years, especially when she could see her friends from our local middle schools hardly ever studied for tests/exams.

She started freshman year taking all honors and some junior level classes. She is doing great in high school (ranked first in her class of over 500). She says that most kids in her classes are struggling with basic skills in math and sciences. These are very smart kids who received awards in 7th and 8th grades, but were not prepared well for high schools. DD misses all her great teachers from her middle school.

OP, I think your DD needs a great tutor. She has shown that she can learn in the past, it is just hard for her to see that things doesn't come easy to her like before.
She had a very good elementary and junior high. She was perfectly well prepared. It's not the school's fault, it's her fault. She just has no motivation.

We've started with a chem tutor, at $50/hr. It really frosts me that while I'm trying to save money for her college education, I'm also having to shell out for a tutor because she's too unmotivated to get with the program. I don't tell her this, but that's what I'm feeling. And if I have to get her a math tutor too, that's $400/month. I am going to tell her that learning to drive when she turns 16 is going to be on the table. If I have to pay $400/month for tutors, it's going to be tough to cough up the money for adding her to our insurance.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:01 PM   #37
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OP, I think your DD needs a great tutor. She has shown that she can learn in the past, it is just hard for her to see that things doesn't come easy to her like before.
I'm not discounting the value of a tutor but unless you can motivate someone to WANT to learn, a tutor is a just a really expensive way to delay the inevitable. the worlds greatest tutor cant overcome apathy or animus.

The idea that it's not " cool to be smart" enrages me to no end, but it is far too prevalent. by the time a lot of students find out the folly of this position, they are often so far behind that they cant fix it.

Good luck
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:04 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by rlduvall View Post
It's never too late. Remember, even it takes you 6-8 years to get your degree . . . you will still be that same age in 6-8 years anyway.
At this point, DD is in college and DH is working on his nursing degree. That's about all I can afford at this point in life but you never know...maybe someday.

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I'm not discounting the value of a tutor but unless you can motivate someone to WANT to learn, a tutor is a just a really expensive way to delay the inevitable. the worlds greatest tutor cant overcome apathy or animus.

The idea that it's not " cool to be smart" enrages me to no end, but it is far too prevalent. by the time a lot of students find out the folly of this position, they are often so far behind that they cant fix it.

Good luck
Me too. Thankfully my nephew did not buy into it. He loves being smart.


OP, a client of mine had HS motivation with her son. What worked for him was that he wanted to learn to fly. They made a deal with him about grades--bring them up and you can sign up for flying lessons. It worked and today, many years later, he's a commercial pilot.

Maybe there is something that would motivate your DD?
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:42 PM   #39
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If she's not motivated she won't get better grades. Motivation is the key and a lot of kids go through a point in schooling where they loose that motivation.

I was a good student through about freshman year in high school. Then things started spiraling downwards. The fact that I graduated high school is a minor miracle and honestly, I only graduate because I got As in band. In high school, I developed severe depression (I was suicidal), severe anxiety along with some physical health issues that led to Hospitalizations. At that point I just gave up and stopped trying. I always did pretty well on exams but I never did the homework which of course was most of the grade so in the good classes, I was getting Cs. But my grades beginning sophomore year were primarily Cs and Ds. I graduated and went to community college for a semester. I again got 2 Cs, 1 D and 1 F. I took off the next semester. I went back to communi college that fall and over the next year I did better. Mostly Bs and Cs. Motivation was still lacking and my professors were terrible so that didn't help.

We moved to California the next year and I finished up my second year of CC there. That year I got almost straight As. Something had clicked and the professors at my new CC were for the most part, amazing.

I brought my GPA up to a little above a 3.0 and the next year I transferred to a UC campus. I graduate in 6 weeks as a double major. Right now I have a 3.848 GPA and I should be graduating with honors. I am planning on getting my post bacc for pre med and going to medical school and get my MPH as well.

So in short, it is possible to turn things around. There is not one "right" way of doing things. I have had more bumps in the road than most 23 year olds have seen. I've been in this school for 80 weeks and I've missed 20 of those weeks because of health issues.

I think you need to find what motivates her. Sometimes the motivation just clicks for some and others need more of a push. External rewards and punishments only work for as long as they exist. Once those external things are removed, if she is not motivated internally, she won't do as well. Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation are both very important but intrinsic motivation is most Important.

Oh....and in relation to therapy....are you seeing any progress at home? Does she like going to therapy or is she resistant to it? The reason I ask is because for years, I swore up and down that I would never go to therapy. After my hospitalization I was "required" to commit to outpatient therapy as a condition of my discharge. But I was stubborn and we went through 6 therapists in a year. Never clicked with any of them and I refused to go. My parents finally gave up. But now, I've been in therapy for a little over two years. I love my therapist. She is absolutely amazing and honestly, she is one of the big reasons why I'm graduating in 6 weeks. If you don't think this therapist is working, you can always find another one. But I do think therapy is good for a lot of teenagers....as long as they can find one who they click with.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:59 PM   #40
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Maybe you missed my earlier post? It makes a difference in the advice I give, so I want to ask again:

what do you consider "bombing" classes? Is this failing? Getting Cs? Something else?
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:00 AM   #41
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Her grades are inconsistent. She is currently failing math this quarter, chem is barely passing. Last year, she was in the 90s in math and science.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:06 AM   #42
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If she's not motivated she won't get better grades. Motivation is the key and a lot of kids go through a point in schooling where they loose that motivation.

I was a good student through about freshman year in high school. Then things started spiraling downwards. The fact that I graduated high school is a minor miracle and honestly, I only graduate because I got As in band. In high school, I developed severe depression (I was suicidal), severe anxiety along with some physical health issues that led to Hospitalizations. At that point I just gave up and stopped trying. I always did pretty well on exams but I never did the homework which of course was most of the grade so in the good classes, I was getting Cs. But my grades beginning sophomore year were primarily Cs and Ds. I graduated and went to community college for a semester. I again got 2 Cs, 1 D and 1 F. I took off the next semester. I went back to communi college that fall and over the next year I did better. Mostly Bs and Cs. Motivation was still lacking and my professors were terrible so that didn't help.

We moved to California the next year and I finished up my second year of CC there. That year I got almost straight As. Something had clicked and the professors at my new CC were for the most part, amazing.

I brought my GPA up to a little above a 3.0 and the next year I transferred to a UC campus. I graduate in 6 weeks as a double major. Right now I have a 3.848 GPA and I should be graduating with honors. I am planning on getting my post bacc for pre med and going to medical school and get my MPH as well.

So in short, it is possible to turn things around. There is not one "right" way of doing things. I have had more bumps in the road than most 23 year olds have seen. I've been in this school for 80 weeks and I've missed 20 of those weeks because of health issues.

I think you need to find what motivates her. Sometimes the motivation just clicks for some and others need more of a push. External rewards and punishments only work for as long as they exist. Once those external things are removed, if she is not motivated internally, she won't do as well. Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation are both very important but intrinsic motivation is most Important.

Oh....and in relation to therapy....are you seeing any progress at home? Does she like going to therapy or is she resistant to it? The reason I ask is because for years, I swore up and down that I would never go to therapy. After my hospitalization I was "required" to commit to outpatient therapy as a condition of my discharge. But I was stubborn and we went through 6 therapists in a year. Never clicked with any of them and I refused to go. My parents finally gave up. But now, I've been in therapy for a little over two years. I love my therapist. She is absolutely amazing and honestly, she is one of the big reasons why I'm graduating in 6 weeks. If you don't think this therapist is working, you can always find another one. But I do think therapy is good for a lot of teenagers....as long as they can find one who they click with.
She's determined to be unmotivated by anything. She'd been talking eagerly about getting her permit, now when it's on the block she just says fine, I won't drive. Same with everything.

She's not opposed to the therapist at this point, but I've seen no change. I think she just spends the time whining about how mean and unreasonable we are and I suspect the therapist sort of validates that. She likes the woman well enough. Since its all confidential, I have no way of knowing what goes on. But the kid had excellent teenager manipulation skills.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:48 AM   #43
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We took DD to counseling 8th grade year because of bullying and depression from that. She did counseling for about 8 months and finally the counselor told me that she did not feel she was opening up enough to move forward at that point. Years later, DD told me that she could just tell the lady what she wanted to hear etc.

I know sometimes it can help but sometimes it doesn't go too far.

I'd hold on to that driving deal. She says,"I won't drive." But the reality is she does care. If it were me, I'd probably still teach her to drive but it'd be at a slower pace than normal and hold out on the license part IF she does not improve at school. The learning would be on OUR timetable and convenience and not when she had the whim to go out driving.

I'd also sit down with her and really have a heart to heart talk--why does she think you are mean? Unreasonable? Try to really find out what she is thinking. Kids can often feel like nothing is good enough for parents. My DD actually made the comment once that as an only child she felt tremendous pressure not to screw up because "she was our only chance." WTH?? Where did that come from...THAT needed to be a banished thought right then. But her personality is about perfection etc. I truly felt like she might drive herself crazy trying to be perfect (and me too!)
Over time, she has relaxed in those thoughts but she still says things about achieving goals vs. living upstairs in the attic for the rest of her life (if she does not have these goals set and goes after them.)

Does your DD have siblings? Is there an older child who is tough to follow? I know you say she is unmotivated but she sounds overwhelmed too. I think one can bring on the other. "Oh, I can't be perfect so I'll just give up."
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:20 AM   #44
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While I'm not saying it can't be oppositional defiant disorder, nor am I a mental health professional, as far as I understand the primary symptom is anger-driven behavior/disobedience to authority figures.

It sounds to me more like this is just a problem with an ability to understand the material or low self esteem/low confidence.
I don't think its oppositional defiance either and I believe I said that, but what I do think is that some of the strategies that work for ODD can work for parents that our dealing with children with declining study habits. OP has already said that the tactics she is using aren't working. There are tactics out there that DO work. It's been a couple years since I used any of these programs, so if I can figure out the name of the one I am referring to, I will post it. It spent A LOT of time on how to approach the homework situation.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:36 AM   #45
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Her grades are inconsistent. She is currently failing math this quarter, chem is barely passing. Last year, she was in the 90s in math and science.
Your daughter will come back around but you have to do the research and figure out how to approach her regarding her study habits. She obviously has the native intelligence to do this work. She has chosen NOT to do the work, for whatever reason. Don't start falling into her pattern of thinking when she says "I am just no start". That's crap and you know it.

Here's the source I was looking for http://www.empoweringparents.com/aut...h=James-Lehman

Again - I am not suggesting that you child has ODD and problems with authority figures. What I am saying is the advice in here can help you set limits with her. First and foremost you can NOT get emotional about her grades. Once you do that you give her the upper hand. As hard as it is, you have to remain detached when you interact with her. But you ARE going to have to supervise her. What I mean is you are going to have to say "X your grade in math dropped from an A to a D this year. I know you are looking forward to your driver's permit. But we can not support that until we see an improvement in your math grade. Therefore it is my expectation that you will study for 30 minutes each evening and your cell phone and computer will not be in the same room with you".

I know you don't want to helicopter, but you do need a new approach.

I wish you much success in getting a handle on this now because Junior year is the make or break year for college admissions. The better schools flat out tell you that they are looking at an improvement in grades.
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