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Old 04-18-2013, 10:54 AM   #76
jade1
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Its just more of the same (except for adding a DP and Gift shop discussion ), as for making it more affordable so folks can make multiple visits and SEE THE MINE TRAIN COMPLETE-the only item that did make things more affordable was the DVC discussion, which puts "several thousand more sets of hands and feet each day" and should be stopped immediately.

As for Deluxe-I just spent 10 days at BWI and it was incredible, and one of our best stays at WDW.

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I'm watching this one like a tennis match (and too tired to form a decent argument...not my finest thread )...

good back and forth.


just one thing about the whole dvc being a good/bad deal for everyone involved. it is.

there is no reinvestment in the resort unless you see what they did at contemporary prior to the construction of bay lake: which was basically an elaborate rehab that in the end only ended up with the same things in different places. they gained a much larger chef mickeys (what they wanted all along)...we lost the concourse steakhouse (which was far better than 90% of the crud you can get in WDW now) and lost when the "wave" rolled in.

so even that "investment" for dvc was totally self serving and detrimental.

but no dvc funds go towards the stress it puts on the system. while they put in a new pool and a bar and restaurants only if theres NO way around it (case in point the recent "addition" to saratoga and sanaa at the overbuilt kidani village)...the common areas are just strained with several thousand more sets of hands and feet each day.

but that's the point...the dvc partially or maybe significantly pays for the upfront costs of construction and upkeep (i don't know if that's ever been released but i would think about 50% of those costs are probably a good ballpark guess)...and guarantees ticket sales, dining plan sales, and most importantly and the ultimate goal: out of pocket money for gift shop crap.

and that's where it all comes back. not "enhancing" the deluxe experience...squeezing it.

but we aren't looking at an isolated case.

the dining plan too...the same goal...upfront money long since departed - out of pocket money straight to giftshop crap.

the "disney decade" of building the "all inclusive experience" to keep people out of orlando?
same deal...guarantees giftshop crap.

that's where the money is made. i hate to always have to come back and harp on this...but the giftshop is the "rosetta stone" to all decisions in the modern (last 20 years) WDW...it can't be overstated. if you look at any question as to what's good/bad...and why they do/don't do things...you can find the hidden (or in some cases obvious) truths by starting at how the move in question affects you as a shopper. all roads lead back to Roma.

and i hope they throw whatever they are gonna throw up at the poly fast...
not just because i can stay there for a significant discount (some of the number estimates here are actually way too conservative in regards to savings...the cost of the maintenance dues are always overstated and if the point system is used wisely/effectively...the savings off rack are large and have gotten better over time when compared to the price increases)...

but after they are gonna be fresh outta deluxes at WDW and are gonna have an issue.

they are not going to stop building DVC until they overflow capacity and the free standing ones have not done "great"...contrary to what disney would tell you. saratoga alone is a 10,000 word case study.

so what happens then? bay lake tower south? wilderness lodge villas annex? the Nantucket Villas at Disney's Yacht Club Resort (former site of convention center parking lot)?

then we'll all KNOW that we've been collectively screwed. because the money gleamed off this is much bigger than we as the public are being told/can track.

And as far as why i think disney hotels are overpriced..at least deluxes?
It's not a question of the microeconomic supply and demand curve...any chimp can follow that...its a little more in depth.
There is a lodging "industry" that has an established set of standards...just like any other trade that has evolved over time. disney does not adhere to them specifically in service. they do somethings well...but some others are laughable. Four Seasons, Ritz Carlton, Westin, Marriot, Hyatt, Loews to name a few.

you can't hire "deluxe" or "luxury" service staff at minimum wage out of a centralized hiring office. you can't have open transfers to anyone regardless of history into front line service positions in "luxury" hotels after a year due to mass union contracts. you can't have a "concierge" who's only "abilities" are to book restaurants, recreation, or programs out of a public centralized system that is first come first serve without discrimination (sad but true), you can't have company policy not to accommodate any requests that extend beyond your property line, actually...you can't call disney "concierge" by that name -it is in no way

Not at $500 a night. no matter how cool the views are or how detailed an imagineer made the lobby casework 25 years ago.
it just simply shouldn't be done.

and that's where the problem lies. just because they sell the rooms and get away with it...doesn't mean they aren't making fools of themselves and committing a foul.

and it's not even "complaining"...its recognition that some things are black and white even if the worlds ruled by the grey. they sell the rooms, they increase the prices every year, they have followed a pattern of reducing services and amenities as opposed to adding them for quite sometime now...but they still sell. there is no need for change from a business standpoint nor and realistic consequences evident for continuing that course.

But doesn't mean that the end justifies the means. i can tell you that there services are not up to snuff based on practical experience, observations, and other "expert" opinions when it comes to this. it has enough validity to be the truth. but that doesn't mean i'm gonna "win you over to my side" or even are attempting to. just saying it how it comes.

we do this all the time...especially in politics...many arguments framed as "two sided" are not at all. there is a common sense right and an obvious wrong. but the "debate" continues to a stalemate or in some case the ridiculous "side" wins the day and sometimes easily.

just how it be...but truth is truth.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:09 AM   #77
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and now.... back to those who think Free Dining saves them money. IMHO.... It's just a bait and switch.

IMHO, the biggest "perk" of the DDP is the fact you have basically pre-paid for your meals and people don't fee like they need to pay attention to the costs of their food.


I don't understand why people would think that Disney would just give something away for free, especially something as expensive as dining. They are making you pay for it some how. You just don't realize it.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:47 AM   #78
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I don't understand why people would think that Disney would just give something away for free, especially something as expensive as dining. They are making you pay for it some how. You just don't realize it.
The worst part is that dining quality has decreased while costs have greatly increased, and it can be tracked back to the growth of the DDP. Food costs bumped up artificially in order to help support the idea that the DDP is a good value.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:57 PM   #79
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Just curious...those of you (mainly Locked Out, DCToo) who have mentioned lack of services at the resorts - deluxes in particular - exactly what type of services are you looking for? One of you mentioned holding back ADRs for guests staying at that resort, and that's fine. But what else?

I agree that overall, WDW resort prices are borderline ridiculous. however, I attribute the premium to those things already mentioned - location, package delivery, transportation, ME, etc.

It's probably just who I am, but I don't look for some hotel staff member to wait on me hand and foot. I'm the type who prefers to do things for myself. Just as an example, on Long Island, there are these 'Dairy Barn' stores. They're basically a chain of small drive-through only grocery stores (that look like little red barns). You tell the person what you want...milk, egss, whatever. The worker gets them and bags them and gives them to you and you never get out of your car. I know plenty of people who love it. I hate the idea and have never went to one. I like to pick out my own products, thank you very much. And my mentality doesn't really change when on vacation.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:54 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jade1 View Post
Its just more of the same (except for adding a DP and Gift shop discussion ), as for making it more affordable so folks can make multiple visits and SEE THE MINE TRAIN COMPLETE-the only item that did make things more affordable was the DVC discussion, which puts "several thousand more sets of hands and feet each day" and should be stopped immediately.

As for Deluxe-I just spent 10 days at BWI and it was incredible, and one of our best stays at WDW.
Don't resist ---- you must assimilate.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:53 AM   #81
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I don't understand why people would think that Disney would just give something away for free, especially something as expensive as dining. They are making you pay for it some how. You just don't realize it.
they are doing it to supplement lower attendance than they'd like in what has been a pretty awful travel environment for the last 5 years...

and they are doing it to make sure that the discretionary spending during a trip for your average vacationer goes almost exclusively to giftshops...where the profit margins are off the chart.
everybody still shows up with a "piggy bank" to spend while they're there...even if the up front cost with a paid dining plan is much higher...

but its higher months or even years in advance...not at the time of the trip. and the dial resets.


That is the evil genius behind the dining plan. they've haven't been able to implement it fully because that pesky "free dining" is still around and cuts into the cash a little...but if they manage to eliminate it and still get most people to bite on the dining plan - i would bet that aggregate spending for the average vacation will probably be up somewhere at or above 20% from what their pre-dining plan levels were...

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Old 04-19-2013, 11:47 AM   #82
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Just curious...those of you (mainly Locked Out, DCToo) who have mentioned lack of services at the resorts - deluxes in particular - exactly what type of services are you looking for? One of you mentioned holding back ADRs for guests staying at that resort, and that's fine. But what else?

I agree that overall, WDW resort prices are borderline ridiculous. however, I attribute the premium to those things already mentioned - location, package delivery, transportation, ME, etc.

It's probably just who I am, but I don't look for some hotel staff member to wait on me hand and foot. I'm the type who prefers to do things for myself. Just as an example, on Long Island, there are these 'Dairy Barn' stores. They're basically a chain of small drive-through only grocery stores (that look like little red barns). You tell the person what you want...milk, egss, whatever. The worker gets them and bags them and gives them to you and you never get out of your car. I know plenty of people who love it. I hate the idea and have never went to one. I like to pick out my own products, thank you very much. And my mentality doesn't really change when on vacation.
Just because a hotel offers something, doesn't mean that everyone will need to take advantage of those offerings.

As for other services they could provide? It's tough for me to say. I'll freely admit that the four Seasons and other true "deluxe" hotels are out of my normal price range. Hell.... I actually prefer to travel in Timeshare type units where I don't even get daily housekeeping. But my point is simply that the location and other "perks" of staying at the Boardwalk or the Pop Century are not worth the $300/night difference in price. Most of the Disney perks and offerings are the same between the two hotels, so even you use the Value pricing as a baseline, the Deluxe resorts STILL seem overpriced because you actually aren't getting a whole lot extra in those hotels. Improving the basic service levels would ultimately be the quickest, easiest, and "cheapest" way for Disney to truly add value to a Deluxe stay over a stay at the Values.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:19 PM   #83
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Just because a hotel offers something, doesn't mean that everyone will need to take advantage of those offerings.

As for other services they could provide? It's tough for me to say. I'll freely admit that the four Seasons and other true "deluxe" hotels are out of my normal price range. Hell.... I actually prefer to travel in Timeshare type units where I don't even get daily housekeeping. But my point is simply that the location and other "perks" of staying at the Boardwalk or the Pop Century are not worth the $300/night difference in price. Most of the Disney perks and offerings are the same between the two hotels, so even you use the Value pricing as a baseline, the Deluxe resorts STILL seem overpriced because you actually aren't getting a whole lot extra in those hotels. Improving the basic service levels would ultimately be the quickest, easiest, and "cheapest" way for Disney to truly add value to a Deluxe stay over a stay at the Values.

Understood. Just because I may not be likely take advantage particular services, it doesn't mean they shouldn't offer them or that no one else would take advantage of them. I just don't ever find myself thinking "I wish they had offered this service or that service" while at the resorts. Who knows...maybe someone would mention something that is done at other hotels/resorts that I never thought of that I would totally want to take advantage of if WDW offered it.

I'm by no means justifying the price tag of the deluxes....but as to the bolded, some of the things you have at a deluxe that you don't have at the values (although admittedly I've never stayed at a value) include TS restaurants, larger rooms, better pools (with slides), waiters going around the pool taking drink orders, room doors that don't open to the outside, many (if not all) have some type of balcony or porch, and generally better locations with varied transportation options. Are those things worth the price difference between the two? Depends on the indivudual I guess.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:47 PM   #84
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But my point is simply that the location and other "perks" of staying at the Boardwalk or the Pop Century are not worth the $300/night difference in price. Most of the Disney perks and offerings are the same between the two hotels, so even you use the Value pricing as a baseline, the Deluxe resorts STILL seem overpriced because you actually aren't getting a whole lot extra in those hotels. Improving the basic service levels would ultimately be the quickest, easiest, and "cheapest" way for Disney to truly add value to a Deluxe stay over a stay at the Values.
I would stay at Allstars over the BWI if they changed locations, even if the pricing switched, and the perks switched.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:20 PM   #85
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I would stay at Allstars over the BWI if they changed locations, even if the pricing switched, and the perks switched.
So what you are saying is you would prefer the allstars buildings and grounds to the boardwalk? Even at Boardwalk prices?
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:39 PM   #86
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So what you are saying is you would prefer the allstars buildings and grounds to the boardwalk? Even at Boardwalk prices?
No, but I am saying if you leave the BW perks (Luna & Quiet pools, the BW and its shopping and dining, the deluxe queen beds, concierge, room service) but replaced the buildings locations including the goofy look of it all-yes I would choose the Allstars-mostly because of the location.

I would find it odd of course, but my point is its the location I am willing to pay for.

Now it if was a wholesale swap-just lift the Allstars and drop on the shore where BW is-then put the BW where Allstars is. I would for sure still choose Allstars over BW at current prices. If they were the same price I would choose Allstars as well. If it was $400 Allstars and $150 BW-then I would choose BC for location at $400 because of location and deluxe.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:57 PM   #87
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No, but I am saying if you leave the BW perks (Luna & Quiet pools, the BW and its shopping and dining, the deluxe queen beds, concierge, room service) but replaced the buildings locations including the goofy look of it all-yes I would choose the Allstars-mostly because of the location.

I would find it odd of course, but my point is its the location I am willing to pay for.

Now it if was a wholesale swap-just lift the Allstars and drop on the shore where BW is-then put the BW where Allstars is. I would for sure still choose Allstars over BW at current prices. If they were the same price I would choose Allstars as well. If it was $400 Allstars and $150 BW-then I would choose BC for location at $400 because of location and deluxe.


My apologies, but I'm having a hard time making heads or tails of this--

Do you hate boardwalk for some reason? Or do you love the feel of Allstars? (many people do) Does any one else get this? Not trying to be rude, just trying to understand.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:18 PM   #88
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My apologies, but I'm having a hard time making heads or tails of this--

Do you hate boardwalk for some reason? Or do you love the feel of Allstars? (many people do) Does any one else get this? Not trying to be rude, just trying to understand.
I am using the BW as an example, feel free to use the BC or BLT.

The point is I am one of your problems I think. I go to central FL for WDW-otherwise I would go the FL beaches. Hence its "location" that matters. Yes, the closer the better. Same as ski resorts in Colorado. We pay way more to be on the slopes ski in and ski out-not take buses everywhere. Same as NYC-we stay on times square not in New Jersey and we pay more.

Now "deluxe" is important, but does not trump location to the parks for us. Build all the Four Seasons and Waldorf Astoria's "nearby" that you want. We will never even price them.

My Allstars point was to show that same thing.

My response was to DCTooTall that its not worth it-I say yes it is::

Originally Posted by DCTooTall
But my point is simply that the location and other "perks" of staying at the Boardwalk or the Pop Century are not worth the $300/night difference in price. Most of the Disney perks and offerings are the same between the two hotels, so even you use the Value pricing as a baseline, the Deluxe resorts STILL seem overpriced because you actually aren't getting a whole lot extra in those hotels. Improving the basic service levels would ultimately be the quickest, easiest, and "cheapest" way for Disney to truly add value to a Deluxe stay over a stay at the Values.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
But my point is simply that the location and other "perks" of staying at the Boardwalk or the Pop Century are not worth the $300/night difference in price. Most of the Disney perks and offerings are the same between the two hotels, so even you use the Value pricing as a baseline, the Deluxe resorts STILL seem overpriced because you actually aren't getting a whole lot extra in those hotels.
It is worth that much more, to the point we won't make the trip without the BW or BC available. Now we do a lot of EPCOT evenings though, dining and drinks as well as on the BW. We can leave our room 10 minutes before an ADR, we would need to leave our room an hour before from Pop, same for a return FP time, or a rope drop. We can walk back for a swim/rest and be there before we can get to the bus line at EPCOT. The pools are way better at BC and BW. EPCOT dining is just a quick walk along with all the BW dining. The deluxe queen beds are much nicer than Allstars fulls. Room service.

I can be in my BC room after Illuminations before an Allstar guest can get to the EPCOT exit, much less the walk to the bus, ride the bus if not full, make the stops, and then walk to their room yet.


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Improving the basic service levels would ultimately be the quickest, easiest, and "cheapest" way for Disney to truly add value to a Deluxe stay over a stay at the Values.
What service levels are you talking about? Especially when compared to what I listed above?
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:22 PM   #90
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I am using the BW as an example, feel free to use the BC or BLT.

The point is I am one of your problems I think. I go to central FL for WDW-otherwise I would go the FL beaches. Hence its "location" that matters. Yes, the closer the better. Same as ski resorts in Colorado. We pay way more to be on the slopes ski in and ski out-not take buses everywhere. Same as NYC-we stay on times square not in New Jersey and we pay more.

Now "deluxe" is important, but does not trump location to the parks for us. Build all the Four Seasons and Waldorf Astoria's "nearby" that you want. We will never even price them.

My Allstars point was to show that same thing.

My response was to DCTooTall that its not worth it-I say yes it is::

Originally Posted by DCTooTall
But my point is simply that the location and other "perks" of staying at the Boardwalk or the Pop Century are not worth the $300/night difference in price. Most of the Disney perks and offerings are the same between the two hotels, so even you use the Value pricing as a baseline, the Deluxe resorts STILL seem overpriced because you actually aren't getting a whole lot extra in those hotels. Improving the basic service levels would ultimately be the quickest, easiest, and "cheapest" way for Disney to truly add value to a Deluxe stay over a stay at the Values.


Thank you for the clarification. As it turns out we are in complete agreement. Staying at the BW, BC, and BLT (DVC member) in my opinion are so far superior to any other location on property, we won't stay anywhere else. As far as the pricing, when you have developed a "world" which is like nothing ever created anywhere else, regardless of the current levels of neglect , you can charge whatever you want for admission. The reason the pricing is not excessive is because there is no other place to compare it to. If you want the disney experience, you can't get it at universal, simply due to the size differences. Until another company buys huge acreage, creates better parks, resorts, transportation, dinning, and yes, people like the shopping, Disney will never have a real competitor.
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