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Old 04-15-2013, 04:44 PM   #46
jade1
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post

Value - value in their terms...ie you get the disney look at the disney food (aka aramark) and the disney bus at what they perceive as a bargain basement price. Value does not refer to the consumer's budget.

Moderate - pretty straight forward - the middle of their defined price system. The moderates are pound for pound the biggest ripoffs of any hotels in wdw, orlando, maybe on Earth. Their rates are inline with Westin, hyatt, and marriots in most markets for large parts of the year...sometime even at those comparisons in orlando.

Deluxe - the real stinker...when they charge you 3x as much for what was going to be "standard" according to what the disney brothers approved in the 1960's. that's the kicker...$200 a night (minimum) more to ride the monorail, a boat, or see the magic kingdom or a sliver of the back of EPCOT.
Contemporary's room rate was $29.00 dollars on 10/1/1971.
I'm not sure there's a point to further discussion.

But i'm not blaming disney for any of this...this is something that boils down to simple econ...supply and demand.

The lemmings pay it (like me) and so that is the rate. For me...its worth it to stay near the parks and use the restaurants, pools, and bars...
but i'm still getting ripped off.

not their fault...i bought the timeshare and present the visa anytime they ask me...
Be curious what you would think would happen if they dropped to the following:

Value $49
Mod $79
Deluxe $99
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Old 04-15-2013, 06:24 PM   #47
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~I don't know, I used to believe this until I read in another thread, from several different posters who have come to depend on free dining. They pretty much stated, they would not be able to justify a Disney vacation without free dining, and it saves them at least a thousand dollars or more. Also, you neglect to mention Magical Express, EMH, and the money saved on not renting a car or paying for parking. I think Disney is trying to phase out Free dining, but I don't think it will work -- it seems like the majority of guests who were initially attracted to free dining, would not be able afford Disney without it. That's not to say I don't agree with you, because I do. I don't think the "values" are a real value, but it's obvious that many people feel otherwise.
ME I can't speak to.... other than it's a small expenditure for Disney, in return for a HUGE increase in revenue. When people take ME, they become a captive guest. Now they have no choice to spend $3 on a bottle of water. They will pay $11 for a burger. they will pay $40 for middle of the road sit-down meal. If they didn't offer ME, and guests had to give renting a car serious thought just for airport transportation.... then they'd be much more likely to stop by a store and buy a case of water for $10..... or drive just off property to Mcdonalds for a $4 burger.... or to any number of middle-of-the-road sitdowns where they can get a good meal for only $20. Add that up by a week and a family of 4, and the bus ride from the airport becomes couch change.

EMH... I'm also not sure I see the value in this anymore either to be honest. I remember visiting the MK when I was a kid in the 80's/90's and being there able to ride rides until midnight/1am in late august as an offsite guest. It was a blast and the crowds weren't crazy.... and this was before the days of the fastpass. Now you have to be onsite to stay in the park that late, but by staying onsite, "You get exclusive access to these late hours"..... along with everybody else who stays onsite. Because now you have everybody staying in a Disney hotel being told "You should go to XYZ" park today, that park ends up being much more crowded and you need the extra EMH time to just make up for the increased wait times thru-out the rest of the day.....especially since a large number of Disney guests don't park-hop. Sooooo.... if I find that EMH is at MK, I'm almost guaranteed that 3/4ths of onsite Disney guests that day will be at the MK that day, along with the usual number of offsite guests.... while the remaining 1/4 of onsite guests will be spread out among the remaining 3 parks. End result? I can usually enjoy a much more relaxed day at a non-EMH park than if I stayed onsite and took advantage of EMH.

Car rental /parking costs... If you stay onsite, You are already paying for parking. all the "Disney Hotels" have the costs wrapped into their nightly rate whether you have a car or not...but you get free Disney park parking. the Swalphin... a small overnight parking charge, but you also get free park parking. Offsite? Honestly, you can often come out ahead because of your cheaper nightly rate even with the daily parking fee. Car rental agencies in florida also tend to offer a ton of great deals, so again... if stayin offsite, a lot of times you'll still save money with a hotel+car when compared to just an onsite hotel....


and now.... back to those who think Free Dining saves them money. IMHO.... It's just a bait and switch. For MOST families, I honestly can't see how can be true since the numbers just don't compute for me. For larger families, it might be possible to come out ahead.... but for most people, it just doesn't add up.

For this, I'll just look at onsite hotel options, because if I start looking at offsite accommodations it just wouldn't be fair.

Before you can even get started looking at if "Free Dining" is a value, you first need to look long and hard at the Dining plan by itself. With "Free Dining", it's easy to say to yourself, "If the dining plan costs me $30 per person... and with 4 people, that's $120 saved by Free Dining! AWESOME!". But you need to first look at the dining plan. What does it cover.... and what will you actually eat? The Podcast actually looked at this not too long ago, and the conclusion was that it was often VERY hard to come out ahead with the Disney Dining plans.... at least, with the ones typically included with Free Dining.

For Example... You may get a snack, and 2 quick Service meals for $30. Snacks typically cost under $4. Your QS meals may range from $10 to $16 per meal.... BUT.... there might be only 1 $16 meal option, with the average being closer to $11. If you look at the menu prices... and how most people honestly eat... It becomes much much harder to come out ahead on the Dining plan on stuff you may actually eat. [If nothing more... since your meal will consist of a drink, entree, and desert.... what if you don't normally want to eat desert? or don't want to eat a table service meal every day... or twice a day every day... etc etc etc].

So for the Dining plan to even make sense, You have to honestly look at the menus for what's included and ask yourself, "Would I realistically be able to find, and eat/enjoy enough food using my dining plan credits, where I would've spent more than if I just paid out of pocket?". For most people, that may be hard to answer.


Now let's assume that you [and everyone in your party, since if 1 person get the DDP, EVERYONE must get the same DDP] actually find real monetary value in the DDP, then you can look at the Free Dining promotions to determine if it's worth it. At face value, it may be, because "FREE!!". But if you look deeper, You may find that there are other options out there. Are there other discounts available on your Disney stay (such as room only discounts of 40% off? Military Discounts? AP Discounts? Bounce Back PIN codes? AAA Discounts? etc) that you could use instead of the "free Dining"? Since "Free Dining" requires you pay Rack Rate, You are in essence paying a premium for your room. Outside of Disney, There are a TON of hotels I've stayed at were the rack rate can often be over $300/night [based off things such as the legally required "nightly rate" card posted on the back of the door], but realistically because of normal discounts, the average night in th hotel i closer to $100/night.

For a lot of people, those other discounts they could get on their room, could have them come out ahead in what their out of pocket is for room+ DDP vs "Free" Dining.



IMHO, the biggest "perk" of the DDP is the fact you have basically pre-paid for your meals and people don't fee like they need to pay attention to the costs of their food. The problem with this line of thought however is how structured the plan is with the costs. For those who depend upon Free Dining to justify their trip, I can't help but wonder if they've ever actually put serious thought into what the food costs are at WDW, and their appetite. You can get the same "prepaid" benefit by just putting he money you paid to the DDP onto a Disney Gift card. The advantage to this is that you get a lot more flexibility in your meal (Just want a snack item for lunch instead of a big burger? no problem. Want an appetizer instead of Desert? done. want an adult beverage instead of soda? Covered!... Does you 11yr old who'd be required to eat a full adult meal + desert just want to share your burger and fries? no problem). You may end up even finding some money left over on that gift card at the end of your trip which can be spent on even more snack items for the road.....OR... how about some Disney souvenirs? I'd like to see you try and buy a Tshirt with those 2 left over QS credits on the DDP.




But honestly.... people requiring Free dining to justify their trips? In my opinion, if your budget is tight enough that you require something like Free Dining to be able to afford your trip, I'm thinking there are better ways to spend your money while still experiencing Disney. As was often pointed out in some conversations in the "Other Orlando Area Attractions & Resorts" forum:

When you make a trip to Disney and are decided upon where to stay, You will be hard pressed to find anyplace offering more than 2 of the below 3 options (in any combination):

a. Inexpensive
b. Space
c. Onsite
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:36 PM   #48
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~OMG! I am absent for one day & I just noticed a locked thread -- in rumors?!? Unbelievable...

~
yup--- we missed you at the old throw down !
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:46 PM   #49
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[QUOTE=DRDISNEYMD;48113288]
~I don't know, I used to believe this until I read in another thread, from several different posters who have come to depend on free dining. They pretty much stated, they would not be able to justify a Disney vacation without free dining, and it saves them at least a thousand dollars or more. Also, you neglect to mention Magical Express, EMH, and the money saved on not renting a car or paying for parking. I think Disney is trying to phase out Free dining, but I don't think it will work -- it seems like the majority of guests who were initially attracted to free dining, would not be able afford Disney without it. That's not to say I don't agree with you, because I do. I don't think the "values" are a real value, but it's obvious that many people feel otherwise.


I have experienced Disney without funds and with funds, and when I didn't have the money, we didn't go to the restaraunts. Needing and wanting are two different things. Peanut butter and jelly is still cheap. I miss the food quality of pre free dinning. I have heard one too many mothers tell their 9 year old to order the most expensive thing on the menue cuz it's free.
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:53 PM   #50
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I have experienced Disney without funds and with funds, and when I didn't have the money, we didn't go to the restaraunts. Needing and wanting are two different things. Peanut butter and jelly is still cheap. I miss the food quality of pre free dinning. I have heard one too many mothers tell their 9 year old to order the most expensive thing on the menue cuz it's free.

Ditto!

Seriously... I remember as a kid making it a point to park hop from one park to another JUST to go to the restaurant that had this one item that I loved for lunch....

Or even of jumping from a park to the CBR Food court because it was one of 4 places on property that I could get a particular dessert that I was craving.

Now, when it comes to "quick service", it almost doesn't matter WHERE you go because it's all the same pre-packaged mass produced food.
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:58 PM   #51
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Be curious what you would think would happen if they dropped to the following:

Value $49
Mod $79
Deluxe $99
This is a moot point because they fill the resorts at the current rates, but... anyone wanting to stay on site would have to start calling for reservations at that magical pre set date of first booking.

There would be no slower season.

I am going to quit while I'm ahead...
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:17 PM   #52
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This is a moot point because they fill the resorts at the current rates, but... anyone wanting to stay on site would have to start calling for reservations at that magical pre set date of first booking.

There would be no slower season.

I am going to quit while I'm ahead...
Is this an alias for lockedoutlogic?

I don't know what would happen either, but I'm pretty sure it would be chaos as well as need to be 5 times larger.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:23 AM   #53
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Is this an alias for lockedoutlogic?

I don't know what would happen either, but I'm pretty sure it would be chaos as well as need to be 5 times larger.
You flatter / insult me depending on which day it is. lol.

honestly, I would prefer a multiplier of about 1.2
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:32 AM   #54
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You flatter / insult me depending on which day it is. lol.

honestly, I would prefer a multiplier of about 1.2
HaHa-well I wasn't sure since you answered my quote and said you were finished, if I would hear back on my question.

I really am curious of all the times I hear how expensive WDW rooms are-what would happen if they went in line with hotels around the country.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:44 PM   #55
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HaHa-well I wasn't sure since you answered my quote and said you were finished, if I would hear back on my question.

I really am curious of all the times I hear how expensive WDW rooms are-what would happen if they went in line with hotels around the country.
There aren't just "cheap" hotels around the country. There are places where you can pay $300+ per night, but normally you get service or amenities at the hotel to justify that cost.

I'd even be willing to justify a small premium for the Disney hotels based off the location, or to cover things like Disney Transportation.

The problem is when they ask for $170/night for a glorified motel 6, when around most of the country that price would get you a 3.5 or 4 star hotel. When they ask for $300-500/night for their "deluxe" hotels, when the accomodatins are closer to the 3.5 or 4 star type places you'd get elsewhere in the country, and not the 5 star concierge type service you'd expect for that cost. (it says something when the Waldorf over in the Bonnet Creek Area with it's legendary level of service is cheaper than a Disney Deluxe)


Even if you fold in the cost of parking, access to Disney transportation, and a premium for the location [or even the disney name], the Disney pricing still comes out feeling overpriced.

If you want, take a look at the Universal resorts for comparison. All 3 current resorts offer what could be considered a true Deluxe level resort feel. From a theme park, all three give you multiple forms of transportation to the parks, and unlimted express pass priviledges for all guests in the room. The Cost? Much more in line with what you'd expect to pay for deluxe level accomodations across the country... or about what Disney charges for their Mod hotels.

Their new Cabana Bay, which is closer to a Disney moderate in it's offerings and type of resort (based off pictures and information currently available)... cost wise is comparable to a Disney Value.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:53 PM   #56
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what does this topic about the resort have to do with the train



Seems like it has gotten off topic.

Just my opinion
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:26 PM   #57
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Seems like it has gotten off topic.

Just my opinion
you are correct, yet you have nothing to say except "stop that" ?
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:32 PM   #58
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you are correct, yet you have nothing to say except "stop that" ?
This statement just seems rude to my statement about being off topic because the original post was about seven dwarfs mine train and that is why I looked at the post to start with and the last page had nothing to do with the post so I just put that it seemed that it had gotten off topic, just a friendly reminder what the topic was originally about.
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:22 PM   #59
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Oh...probably not the kinda thing that needs to be announced.

20 years ago when they talked about the "information age"...I'm not sure it was all encompassing.
you asked....
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:27 PM   #60
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Seems like it has gotten off topic.

Just my opinion
Read post 30-and what it is responding to. Its simply a discussion of "why" its taking so long to build the train-and how if it (WDW) wasn't so expensive, most everyone could visit over and over and not care so much how long things take to roll out.

My contention is they need to keep it expensive for a number of reasons, such as stock holders, revenue etc. But also if they dropped down to ave country wide rates-it really would need to be about 5 times larger than it is to keep up with demand IMO.

As for why construction takes "Yeti" so long-I'm not the one to ask as I have "Yeti" no construction experience, and really no ability to comment "Yeti" with any accuracy.
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