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Old 04-08-2013, 04:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
Its funny you say that...cause not only are the zebras on the grounds at Animal Kingdom Lodge (for some reason they are fine there and have been for 10 years dealing with other animals)...you can also see the somali wild *** that they just added to AKL...which is a cool looking donkey with zebra stripes on its legs.

now that i think about it...perhaps the industrial grade trucks with 50 screaming people rolling within 10 feet of the zebras every 45 seconds might have been an issue over at the park. possibly forseeable too.
Haha yes I'm sure they aren't fond of the buses. Does anyone else call the Somali Wild *** a Zonkey anymore? I suppose not, that's what they were called at the St. Louis Zoo when I was a kid and I love them! Just sad they aren't part of the sarfari anymore
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:50 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~This post is so backwards -- it's stuck in time -- please, fast forward to today, place emphasis upon the fact that millions of people visit and enjoy AK each year. And, I don't think investing half a billion dollars and teaming up with James Cameron, "he who knows no limits" mirrors the "Wal-Mart" way. So, you have to give Disney credit here.

Also, the theme park attendance figures show that Animal Kingdom has experienced a steady increase in growth each year. In contrast, Epcot's attendance has steadily declined and remains stagnant.
you're good at framing the argument in terms of "micro" economics...

i can't wait till next semester until you take "macro"...

the attendance at animal kingdom is a function of the COMPOUND much more than the park itself.

it's built surrounded by tens of thousands of hotel rooms in an operation that is disney on all sides and is built to fan people out over ALL the areas (with particular favoritism to the gift shops...of course)

Everyone is kept onsite (or brought from offsite by the allure of the big cheese) and given multi-day tickets that are gate non-discriminant.

The fact is that AK and MGM's attendance have always been a function of their piggy backing on the whole resort and the sister parks....perhaps now epcot falls into that too.

you can't throw the attendance figures of AK and give all the ticks to park as a proof of some kind of accomplishment. there is a captive audience heading there everyday.

come on, now. It's the system.

a way to poll that would be to ask people which park they are "most" likely to skip out of the four...my guess is probably 70% AK, 15-20% MGM, 10-15% epcot, ,0.00% MK.

indeed i know they do collect data on things like this all the time. these things can be figured out with common sense and disney knows what they do and don't have in their parks.

did you ever wonder why they really haven't done much to AK since the Asia phase opened in 99?
maybe because its that they don't see the upside? the "what's the point?" take?

maybe?
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:16 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
you're good at framing the argument in terms of "micro" economics...

i can't wait till next semester until you take "macro"...

the attendance at animal kingdom is a function of the COMPOUND much more than the park itself.

it's built surrounded by tens of thousands of hotel rooms in an operation that is disney on all sides and is built to fan people out over ALL the areas (with particular favoritism to the gift shops...of course)

Everyone is kept onsite (or brought from offsite by the allure of the big cheese) and given multi-day tickets that are gate non-discriminant.

The fact is that AK and MGM's attendance have always been a function of their piggy backing on the whole resort and the sister parks....perhaps now epcot falls into that too.

you can't throw the attendance figures of AK and give all the ticks to park as a proof of some kind of accomplishment. there is a captive audience heading there everyday.

come on, now. It's the system.

a way to poll that would be to ask people which park they are "most" likely to skip out of the four...my guess is probably 70% AK, 15-20% MGM, 10-15% epcot, ,0.00% MK.

indeed i know they do collect data on things like this all the time. these things can be figured out with common sense and disney knows what they do and don't have in their parks.

did you ever wonder why they really haven't done much to AK since the Asia phase opened in 99?
maybe because its that they don't see the upside? the "what's the point?" take?

maybe?
~Wow, you just said we were "zen", so I felt special -- I thought we finally bonded. So, what on earth is this? Plus, I just saw your pedantic wailing in the Avatar thread -- someone has just got to extinguish this little fire you've got going. Luckily, for you I'm in no mood -- I'm too tired, have a headache & I feel a little disappointed, right now. I'll rip this post to shreds when I recover.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:26 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD
. I'll rip this post to shreds when I recover.
You better take your time with this one
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:08 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~Wow, you just said we were "zen", so I felt special -- I thought we finally bonded. So, what on earth is this? Plus, I just saw your pedantic wailing in the Avatar thread -- someone has just got to extinguish this little fire you've got going. Luckily, for you I'm in no mood -- I'm too tired, have a headache & I feel a little disappointed, right now. I'll rip this post to shreds when I recover.
You do realize you can't win that argument with LoL, right? Stating that you (and many people) love the park is an invalid argument. Stating that attendance figures exceed DHS and are within about 15 % of Epcot doesn't matter. The park is a "failure".

I think Joe Rhode might have once in a drunken state came to his house and peed on his rose bushes. And he'll never forgive him!
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:37 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by skier_pete

You do realize you can't win that argument with LoL, right? Stating that you (and many people) love the park is an invalid argument. Stating that attendance figures exceed DHS and are within about 15 % of Epcot doesn't matter. The park is a "failure".

I think Joe Rhode might have once in a drunken state came to his house and peed on his rose bushes. And he'll never forgive him!
It's all opinions here...which is why it's fun.

Occasionally we uncover the truth and learn a few things...myself definitely included.

What is silly is when the debate is polluted with "mom and pop" pandering quips meant to be some kind of clever patronizing (and yes...I do it too and shouldn't). You've now sunk to that too.

So please, I ask, just give me why animal kingdom is such a rousing success...I'm open to a well thought out opinion.

And forego the "such attention to detail" stock answer. That is the officially sanctioned ploy that has been on every travel channel special and Disney printed book for 15 years. I already know what "The Company" and Samantha Brown thinks.

I'm not be sarcastic here...I just don't need a mommy or daddy.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:54 AM   #52
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Stating that the park is a "failure" requires providing the very specific bar it was trying to achieve and the data that shows it didn't.

Although I accept that AK did not achieve all of what was intended, I have seen no specific metrics for a pass/fail grade.

As such, dubbing it a failure is just as much opinion as loving the park. Not everyone shares that opinion, but you are within your rights to hold it.

I am of the opinion that AK still needs exceptional investment to bring it closer to a full day park (same with DHS outside of SWW), and I am also of the opinion that Avatarland is NOT sufficient for more than a 6-12 month bump in attendance, 80%+ of which still won't stay in the park long. And that's even assuming that Disney doesn't underdevelop it, which also in my opinion is likely to happen.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:35 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Stating that the park is a "failure" requires providing the very specific bar it was trying to achieve and the data that shows it didn't.

Although I accept that AK did not achieve all of what was intended, I have seen no specific metrics for a pass/fail grade.

As such, dubbing it a failure is just as much opinion as loving the park. Not everyone shares that opinion, but you are within your rights to hold it.

I am of the opinion that AK still needs exceptional investment to bring it closer to a full day park (same with DHS outside of SWW), and I am also of the opinion that Avatarland is NOT sufficient for more than a 6-12 month bump in attendance, 80%+ of which still won't stay in the park long. And that's even assuming that Disney doesn't underdevelop it, which also in my opinion is likely to happen.
While your words don't say "it's a failure" directly, the sum of your words give me the impassion that you actually agree with LOL and I.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:37 AM   #54
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While your words don't say "it's a failure" directly, the sum of your words give me the impassion that you actually agree with LOL and I.
I agree in the sense that it isn't what they wanted. But then again, they didn't build what they wanted either when the left out Beastly Kingdomme, so it shouldn't have been any surprise there.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:51 AM   #55
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What is silly is when the debate is polluted with "mom and pop" pandering quips meant to be some kind of clever patronizing (and yes...I do it too and shouldn't). You've now sunk to that too..
I was just joking around with that comment. Just relax, brother.

And you must admit the image of Joe Rhode and his silly feather earring drunk on your lawn brought a little smile to your face, right?

"C'mon out here and say that to my face buddy! Failure my sweet patootie!"
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:02 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by skier_pete View Post
I was just joking around with that comment. Just relax, brother.

And you must admit the image of Joe Rhode and his silly feather earring drunk on your lawn brought a little smile to your face, right?

"C'mon out here and say that to my face buddy! Failure my sweet patootie!"
friendly fire...it happens.

and joe rhode hiding in my bushes is a funny visual...

just hope the "dances with wolves" feather earings don't get caught on the rose bushes.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Stating that the park is a "failure" requires providing the very specific bar it was trying to achieve and the data that shows it didn't.

Although I accept that AK did not achieve all of what was intended, I have seen no specific metrics for a pass/fail grade.

As such, dubbing it a failure is just as much opinion as loving the park. Not everyone shares that opinion, but you are within your rights to hold it.

I am of the opinion that AK still needs exceptional investment to bring it closer to a full day park (same with DHS outside of SWW), and I am also of the opinion that Avatarland is NOT sufficient for more than a 6-12 month bump in attendance, 80%+ of which still won't stay in the park long. And that's even assuming that Disney doesn't underdevelop it, which also in my opinion is likely to happen.
I agree with you..."failure" is not the right word. I would say "lackluster" and "neglected" are closer to the accurate terms for the park as i sit.

but as peter pirate said, you and i are actually in total agreement. Avatarland may be part of the puzzle...but is nowhere close to the whole.

probably development in Dinoland and between dinoland and asia is needed. perhaps that means the end to conservation station...but so be it.

the park needs "flesh"...it is really all bones at this point. disney always has seemed to think that having a gigantic, expensive safari ride with tons of animals somehow "compensates" for what is a very thin lineup of other draws throughout the rest of the park. But the reality is that its one ride on one truck...doesn't matter how much its costs.

they seem to have made a fundamental error when setting the park up.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:23 PM   #58
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I often lament that Disney, the one company that should really be able to pull it off, could not build a truly awe inspiring Dino Land. Frack, the one scene in Ellen's ride at Epcot puts the whole land to shame. Dino Land should be like walking around in a modern version of that.
Refurb Kali, it is a little boring. Add another minor attraction to Africa as the Safari and lunch are the only things to do there.
These along with Avatar land (or any other land) will be more than plenty for me.
The park is already so massive that anything more would be just crazy. I don't know if the above would bring people streaming in but I don't mind my favorite park not having huge crowds.
Oh, I don't care if conservation station stays or goes. Always seemed kinda ridiculous to take a train to another part of the park to just experience a petting zoo. Turn the train into a "Hogwarts Express" type experience I guess LOL.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:27 PM   #59
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Come on People.... Calling AK a "Failure" is just mean and we'll never get some people to see behind the attendence numbers and "pretty details" to admit to it. What you need to realize is that like so many things, This isn't something that a binary Pass/Fail decision will really fit.

So what would fit better? Your standard school-based ABCDF grade curve. D and F are failing grades. A and B are your stronger passing grades.... and a C? That's that grade the jock gets so he can just barely get a passing grade to maintain his eligability. It's also what AK probably deserves.


The Park did some things right. It's got some areas with wonderful details and for those who are fans and like to put in the effort, has plenty that makes it a favorite for many.

BUT..... they also half-assed the park in the beginning with cutting out Beastly Kingdomme and the whole Chester/Hester area, and have continued their half-assed ways since the park opened without putting any real effort into correcting the park's deficiencies. It really says something when one of the biggest draws to the park (beyond the animals) since the start is a show built around recycled parade floats.

Even the one real addition to the park since it opened has a major lack of real effort feel to it thanks to the Disco Yeti since not long after it opened.


So... It's not a complete failure. It helps dilute the crowds from the other parks. It has a couple decent draws to make it interesting for people. It gives Disney some great PR on it's conservation and environmental contributions from the park. And there is the whole AK merchandising side that wouldn't be as large if they didn't have the park. (dino's, and all the safari themed toys/plushes, shirts, etc).

But it also didn't meet all the hopes they had for the park. For a large number of returning 'casual' guests, they may feel they can skip this park. Those who are on a limited budget or time crunch also feel that this park could be skipped. (and with the improvements at the other park north of them drawing people's attention and potential vacation time away, it's more likely to be felt here). Even all the other parks have SOMETHING that attract people to come visit the resort as their primary reason (MK... because it's the MK. EPCOT with F&W and Flower&Garden. MGM with ESPN Weekends, Star Wars Weekends, SOAP Opera Events etc etc).... so even in that regard, AK truly feels like an also ran.

So AK serves a purpose and can't really be deemed a complete failure.... but you can't argue that compared to the hopes and ideas for the park, it's a huge disappointment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco View Post
I often lament that Disney, the one company that should really be able to pull it off, could not build a truly awe inspiring Dino Land. Frack, the one scene in Ellen's ride at Epcot puts the whole land to shame. Dino Land should be like walking around in a modern version of that.
Refurb Kali, it is a little boring. Add another minor attraction to Africa as the Safari and lunch are the only things to do there.
These along with Avatar land (or any other land) will be more than plenty for me.
The park is already so massive that anything more would be just crazy. I don't know if the above would bring people streaming in but I don't mind my favorite park not having huge crowds.
Oh, I don't care if conservation station stays or goes. Always seemed kinda ridiculous to take a train to another part of the park to just experience a petting zoo. Turn the train into a "Hogwarts Express" type experience I guess LOL.
Um... Kali is more than just a little boring. It's a short ride, and it almost feels like 2/3rd of it is spent just setting up and getting you to the actual point of the ride.

As for the Ellen Ride putting Dinoland to shame.... I'd even be willing to say that the entire Universe of Energy (pre-ellen) did a better job at entertaining, educating, and showcasing dino's than that land at the AK does. Kinda sad when an attraction opened in 1982 does a better job than one opened 17yrs later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hYoGfacCRM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhAwEFBVkU
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:43 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
Come on People.... Calling AK a "Failure" is just mean and we'll never get some people to see behind the attendence numbers and "pretty details" to admit to it. What you need to realize is that like so many things, This isn't something that a binary Pass/Fail decision will really fit.

So what would fit better? Your standard school-based ABCDF grade curve. D and F are failing grades. A and B are your stronger passing grades.... and a C? That's that grade the jock gets so he can just barely get a passing grade to maintain his eligability. It's also what AK probably deserves.


The Park did some things right. It's got some areas with wonderful details and for those who are fans and like to put in the effort, has plenty that makes it a favorite for many.

BUT..... they also half-assed the park in the beginning with cutting out Beastly Kingdomme and the whole Chester/Hester area, and have continued their half-assed ways since the park opened without putting any real effort into correcting the park's deficiencies. It really says something when one of the biggest draws to the park (beyond the animals) since the start is a show built around recycled parade floats.

Even the one real addition to the park since it opened has a major lack of real effort feel to it thanks to the Disco Yeti since not long after it opened.


So... It's not a complete failure. It helps dilute the crowds from the other parks. It has a couple decent draws to make it interesting for people. It gives Disney some great PR on it's conservation and environmental contributions from the park. And there is the whole AK merchandising side that wouldn't be as large if they didn't have the park. (dino's, and all the safari themed toys/plushes, shirts, etc).

But it also didn't meet all the hopes they had for the park. For a large number of returning 'casual' guests, they may feel they can skip this park. Those who are on a limited budget or time crunch also feel that this park could be skipped. (and with the improvements at the other park north of them drawing people's attention and potential vacation time away, it's more likely to be felt here). Even all the other parks have SOMETHING that attract people to come visit the resort as their primary reason (MK... because it's the MK. EPCOT with F&W and Flower&Garden. MGM with ESPN Weekends, Star Wars Weekends, SOAP Opera Events etc etc).... so even in that regard, AK truly feels like an also ran.

So AK serves a purpose and can't really be deemed a complete failure.... but you can't argue that compared to the hopes and ideas for the park, it's a huge disappointment.
wow...i have nothing to say/type

did love the "recycled parade floats" line...i bet many people who defend AK "because its disney" (lets face it...that is the typical argument behind the argument...often by employees) don't realize that festival is just a thrown together shelter with surplus parts...a "good save" for disney in this particular case....but ultimately still damage control.
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