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Old 04-01-2013, 11:03 AM   #136
sam_gordon
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Originally Posted by Tiger926 View Post
Well isn't that an obvious answer! You missed the point.

I don't believe that at all. They can dip into the areas of wastage on the ship and fund it that way: food, decorations, etc...

You also didn't answer my question regarding the difference between resorts and cruise in the lifeguard department?

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Of course they could cut other areas to support the increased cost. But I don't see that happening.

And I didn't answer your question because I don't have an answer. If I had to guess, maybe it has something to do with pool size?
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:29 AM   #137
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Someone previously asked about non-Disney hotels and many of them not ever having lifeguards and I saw no response to that. I don't recall any of the budget hotels having lifeguards and yet these tragic drownings seem to be very rare.

I agree that Disney doesn't need to have lifeguards at all times. Maybe close the pools to younger kids at a certain time and close the pools altogether when it's real late but lifeguards 24/7 at every pool is overkill IMO.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #138
Tiger926
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Originally Posted by sam_gordon View Post
Of course they could cut other areas to support the increased cost. But I don't see that happening.

And I didn't answer your question because I don't have an answer. If I had to guess, maybe it has something to do with pool size?
Of course it won't happen, as Disney loves their profit margins. If they aren't required to, then I agree that they aren't going to provide it, unless the lawyers advise otherwise.

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Someone previously asked about non-Disney hotels and many of them not ever having lifeguards and I saw no response to that. I don't recall any of the budget hotels having lifeguards and yet these tragic drownings seem to be very rare.

I agree that Disney doesn't need to have lifeguards at all times. Maybe close the pools to younger kids at a certain time and close the pools altogether when it's real late but lifeguards 24/7 at every pool is overkill IMO.
I also have wondered why they don't run the cruise pools like resort pools, with certain hours that lifeguards are in attendance?

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Old 04-01-2013, 11:46 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Planogirl View Post
Someone previously asked about non-Disney hotels and many of them not ever having lifeguards and I saw no response to that. I don't recall any of the budget hotels having lifeguards and yet these tragic drownings seem to be very rare.

I agree that Disney doesn't need to have lifeguards at all times. Maybe close the pools to younger kids at a certain time and close the pools altogether when it's real late but lifeguards 24/7 at every pool is overkill IMO.
Especially when every child in that pool has a parent or guardian that should be acting as their lifeguard.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:23 PM   #140
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You know, it's these kinds of reactions that have resulted in "no tolerance" policies that everyone hates. One tragedy, that may not have been preventable in the first place, and everyone's screaming "we have to keep this from happening again!" I'm sorry people, but sometimes accidents happen.

How many people swim on the Fantasy (to say nothing about other pools) with no life guards and don't have a problem? But because there was ONE (ok, two if you include the drowning at POP) accident, now we need to have all kinds of added rules.


As tragic as both these cases are, they only illustrate how rare problems are. Disney has swim-at-your-own-risk policies at most of their pools most of the time, with 25K+ rooms on property and average occupancy in the 85-90%. Some very rough math, based on weeklong stays and 2 guests per room, translates that into almost 2.5 million guests per year (and obviously accurate numbers would be higher). But the incident at Pop was the first I've heard of a drowning at an on-site resort. Googling turned up one other case, in 1987. That's a more than acceptable safety record by any objective standard, regardless of emotional "Any accident is too many" rhetoric.

The cruise line has a similar track record - fleet capacity of 13000, so if you assume weeklong cruises for ease of estimating, annual guest capacity of almost 700,000. And yet, this is the only incident I could find any record of regarding a drowning or near drowning onboard. It isn't as though there's a epidemic of unsafe swimming conditions or frequent problems that would justify a total overhaul of policies that both guests and the company seem satisfied with.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:44 PM   #141
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I haven't read this whole thread so don't know if the age was corrected from the first post, but the boy was only FOUR years old.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5294

I pray that he makes a full recovery.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:08 PM   #142
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As tragic as both these cases are, they only illustrate how rare problems are. Disney has swim-at-your-own-risk policies at most of their pools most of the time, with 25K+ rooms on property and average occupancy in the 85-90%. Some very rough math, based on weeklong stays and 2 guests per room, translates that into almost 2.5 million guests per year (and obviously accurate numbers would be higher). But the incident at Pop was the first I've heard of a drowning at an on-site resort. Googling turned up one other case, in 1987. That's a more than acceptable safety record by any objective standard, regardless of emotional "Any accident is too many" rhetoric.

The cruise line has a similar track record - fleet capacity of 13000, so if you assume weeklong cruises for ease of estimating, annual guest capacity of almost 700,000. And yet, this is the only incident I could find any record of regarding a drowning or near drowning onboard. It isn't as though there's a epidemic of unsafe swimming conditions or frequent problems that would justify a total overhaul of policies that both guests and the company seem satisfied with.
For sure serious incidents seem rare, but the potential is still there.

My issue is why the huge difference between cruise and resorts?

I think that the difference in policy between the two areas is very interesting, and I wish I had more info regarding those differences.

For instance, 2 weeks ago the main Boardwalk pool was virtually empty (we had a pool view), as it was too cold and windy to swim, yet tons of lifeguards on duty.

I wish I knew why there is such a difference between the two?

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Old 04-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #143
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For sure serious incidents seem rare, but the potential is still there.

My issue is why the huge difference between cruise and resorts?

I think that the difference in policy between the two areas is very interesting, and I wish I had more info regarding those differences.

For instance, 2 weeks ago the main Boardwalk pool was virtually empty (we had a pool view), as it was too cold and windy to swim, yet tons of lifeguards on duty.

I wish I knew why there is such a difference between the two?

Tiger

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I'm just guessing, but maybe pool size? Depth? Florida regulations? I don't know if Florida regulations would apply to a ship sailing to/from Florida ports.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:16 PM   #144
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I'm just guessing, but maybe pool size? Depth? Florida regulations? I don't know if Florida regulations would apply to a ship sailing to/from Florida ports.
I am thinking it's the regulations aspect. If they don't have to, why bother?

Maybe someone who is a lifeguard might know about the size of pool though, as the resort main pools are very large, and that is also a legitimate reason for the difference in policy, as the cruise pools are so small, but they are seriously overcrowded and dangerous, IMHO.

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Old 04-01-2013, 07:23 PM   #145
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I am thinking it's the regulations aspect. If they don't have to, why bother?

Maybe someone who is a lifeguard might know about the size of pool though, as the resort main pools are very large, and that is also a legitimate reason for the difference in policy, as the cruise pools are so small, but they are seriously overcrowded and dangerous, IMHO.

Tiger
I also wonder if having the slides has anything to do with it (regulations wise).

I can tell you the pool at the Mexico AI we stayed at last summer didn't have any lifeguards and it was HUGE (area, depth was only about 3-4'). But that is Mexico.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:39 PM   #146
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I also wonder if having the slides has anything to do with it (regulations wise).
Yes, it does. Insurance companies requires an attendant (although many are not certified guards). I'm pretty sure Disney is self-insured though.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:40 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Tiger926 View Post
I am thinking it's the regulations aspect. If they don't have to, why bother?

Maybe someone who is a lifeguard might know about the size of pool though, as the resort main pools are very large, and that is also a legitimate reason for the difference in policy, as the cruise pools are so small, but they are seriously overcrowded and dangerous, IMHO.

Tiger
I don't think there's any regulation difference. FL rules wouldn't apply to cruise ships I don't think (country of registry determines jurisdiction IIRC) but I don't think there's any FL statute mandating lifeguards either. I've stayed at a few off-site hotels/resorts that didn't have them. If FL requires lifeguards it must pertain specifically to pool slides because I've been in some very large and deeper-than-Disney's pools that didn't have them, though they didn't have slides either.

I'm curious now about the difference in policy too. Cost seems like the most obvious reasoning. FL has a pretty well saturated labor market and low prevailing wages. It must be far more expensive to hire an additional employee for DCL than for WDW, between wages that compensate for basically living at work and quartering the additional staff on board. Or more cynically, I wonder if there's concern that having the pool staffed would actually open up additional liability relative to overcrowding and other unsafe conditions. With a swim-at-your-own-risk policy it is up to guests to decide but if there are lifeguards on duty it seems like an argument could be made for negligence if they aren't enforcing capacity limits and safe conditions in the area.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:41 PM   #148
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DD was lifeguard for DVC for five years. Pools with slide require attendants they are certified lifeguards slide ops are recreation and are not certified guards they tel. The kids when to go down the slide Pool water is guarded by the lifeguards...please do not make the lifeguard your child"s babysitter...they are watching over the pools to insure everyone"s safety.
This is tragic and I wish nothing but the best for the child...ultimately your child is your most precious gift they are your responsibility please keep them safe
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:41 AM   #149
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I remember when OKW added a slide, some people were upset because of the extra dues that would come because they would now need lifeguards at the pool. I think that is the difference; with the slide comes the lifeguards.

None of the quiet pools (ie, no slides) in DVC have lifeguards; and very few Florida hotel pools have lifeguards.

I agree that lifeguards arent't he issue here. This is why they call them "accidents" and the accident could have happened even with a life guard standing a few feet away.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:52 AM   #150
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It doesn't matter if there was a lifeguard or not, they are not babysitters and will never replace the eyes and ears of a parent, especially when the lifeguards have to keep watch on hundreds of kids a day!!

My DD10 is an excellent swimmer, been swimming since she was 2 (we have our own pool), but I still watch her like a hawk!! If I have to leave the pool area for even 2 seconds I make her get out. When we are at Disney or on DCL, one of us (usually dad) is always in the pool with her and the other (me) stands guard at the pool watching her.

You can never be too safe near water. Drowing can happen in a second.
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