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Old 03-24-2013, 08:07 PM   #31
Tekneek
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The old FASTPASS system will be gone when full conversion to FP+ has happened. Look at these interesting snippets from the My Disney Experience Terms of Service:

From the section titled CONVERTING TO PAPERLESS TICKETS:

"Once you convert a ticket or pass you will no longer be able to participate in the standard FASTPASS service upon arrival at the parks."

From the section titled DISNEY FASTPASS+ Service:

"You may make FastPass+ selections for one park per day."
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #32
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"Availability of a FastPass+ experience, the number of experiences you may select and arrival windows are limited and vary based on factors such as the theme park you are visiting, the attraction or entertainment experience, the time of year and the day of the week, and prior demand. In addition, the number of days for which you can hold FastPass+ selections at any given time is limited."

This feels like an impending disaster, given how horribly Disney implements web services. For many, they still have to call in to reliably get their ADRs scheduled. I have little confidence they will get this right.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #33
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This feels like an impending disaster, given how horribly Disney implements web services. For many, they still have to call in to reliably get their ADRs scheduled. I have little confidence they will get this right.
Agree with this more than anything is concerning. Anytime I've tried to use their App in the park - it is SOOO slow I don't bother. Another reason for my "wait and see" attitude.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:42 AM   #34
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Another thing to think about,

Multiple people have mentioned the theory that lines will become shorter if there are no fastpass options to begin with. This is a mathematical impossibility. Let me try to explain.

Rides have a set capacity per hour that fastpass has no effect on. The ride itself does not distinguish between a fastpass rider and a standby rider its all the same when it comes to how many people ride the ride. Now, when you remove that fastpass option from it it will eliminate the need to hold the standby line to allow fastpass riders to ride resulting in the line moving faster, but in the end, the same amount of people will get to ride in any given day/hour.

The effect of removing fastpass would not be shorter lines/more rides for everyone in a giving day, it would be the equalization between the amount of rides a fastpass user gets and a none user gets.

The ONLY way to actually reduce waits is to change a part of the equation (increasing ride capacity per hour while keeping guest volume the same, increasing attractions in the park while keeping guest volume the same, or decreasing guest volume)

Theoretically yes, however this thinking only works if everything is equal, and its not.

1) Not all rides have FP ( FP rides get more crowed lines, some of this is caused by reason 3. Expanding FP to other rides and options will thin this out)

2) Traffic flow of Guests is not even, some parts of the park get super crowed and others are not.( crowd control through RFID rumors helps this)

3)FP return times were never upheld. ( this would lead to people using them when its most crowed not when they are actually scheduled for)


These are just three reasons, there are more, but its not just simple math. There is way to much randomness and etc for it to be simple capacity and load time.

Last edited by MATTinNH; 03-25-2013 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:24 AM   #35
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Been away for a few days....catching up now. Some points:

1. For folks that think that Disney would like to have more people in standby lines: have you seen this patent filing (and article on The Dis about it)? While not conclusive, I'd say this points to the idea of having people utilize FP *more* not less.

2. One possibility for FP+ seems to that Disney can take down the FP return time display signs, and give different guests different FP return times. They can do this because you'll be booking your FP on your own phone or a kiosk. So a GF Concierge guest gets a return time in 20 minutes and an off-site visitor who brings their lunch with them in a cooler gets a further out return time. (2007 article - note patent app link is wrong in that article). Yes, the dreaded class discrimination that is the way of the world in pretty much every other Non-Disney theme park - but is present in more subtle forms in several Disney theme parks.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:31 AM   #36
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Yes, the dreaded class discrimination that is the way of the world in pretty much every other Non-Disney theme park - but is present in more subtle forms in several Disney theme parks.
This is also how it will be easy for them to implement the selling of FP+ slots in the future. It will be out of the view of the ordinary guest. Even if they know they could buy more slots, they aren't getting hit over the head with it all day and feeling like they're missing out. It all happens in the background and they don't really know how/why people got their reservation times. Disney has the ability to tweak it in any manner, fair or unfair, and stave off the peasant revolution by not being so overt.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:55 AM   #37
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The worry that once FP+ is implemented, people will only be able to us FP thrice a day doesn't seem to stand up to logic. Consider that: 1) People today generally use more than 3 FP a day (assumption, but I think a safe one). And 2) More FP usage opportunities (attractions or shows/parades) are being added. There will therefore be more FP capacity once the FP+ options are added.

Unless the intent of FP+ is to get people away from FP usage and into stand-by lines (and have excess FP line capacity), then the 3 FP+ limit applies just to pre-booking FPs. Once you're in the park you'll be able to utilize the FP system in a way similar to the way its used today. Though instead of having to walk to a FP machine, you schedule a FP though a kiosk or personal Smartphone.

I'll be shocked off Disney wants to get more people into stand-by lines. In a standby line, people's satisfaction diminishes and they aren't spending money on food or merchandise.

How am I wrong?
There is also a possibility in the future more FP+ will be available as incentives. On an average day, MK has a lot more FP+ capacity than three per person. Where do the extra FP+ go? Are they available for first come first served? Will they be handed out as surprise and delight (nick Franklin v.p. said that)?, will they be incentives for deluxe room customers?, will they be available for purchase? Or some combination.

If Disney can get enough people to use FP+ for the things Tim mentioned (wishes, Fantasmic, meals, parades, etc) the FP+ capacity soars at the other parks too.

3 FP+ is apparently the magic number for all guests regardless of ticket type, room type, on site or off, but that won't be the end of this. There are too many additional passes left. They will be valuable to Disney to use accordingly.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:08 PM   #38
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Another thing to think about,

Multiple people have mentioned the theory that lines will become shorter if there are no fastpass options to begin with. This is a mathematical impossibility. Let me try to explain.

Rides have a set capacity per hour that fastpass has no effect on. The ride itself does not distinguish between a fastpass rider and a standby rider its all the same when it comes to how many people ride the ride. Now, when you remove that fastpass option from it it will eliminate the need to hold the standby line to allow fastpass riders to ride resulting in the line moving faster, but in the end, the same amount of people will get to ride in any given day/hour.

The effect of removing fastpass would not be shorter lines/more rides for everyone in a giving day, it would be the equalization between the amount of rides a fastpass user gets and a none user gets.

The ONLY way to actually reduce waits is to change a part of the equation (increasing ride capacity per hour while keeping guest volume the same, increasing attractions in the park while keeping guest volume the same, or decreasing guest volume - bingo!)
Let me give you something to think about: the human element.

You are correct that the ride doesn't differentiate between FP and non-FP users, and that if the capacity hasn't changed, the same number of people get to ride.

But question? Are they the same people?

Wait times get shorter without FP, because some people that previously held FPs CHANGE their behavior. A rider who was willing to wait an hour to do something else, to come back and have a "walk on - 10 min wait," may not be willing to wait 45 min in a line. So they don't ride. So now the person that was waiting in standby has 1 fewer guest virtually in line in front of them. Their specific wait time gets shorter.

When FP was first implemented, people in the know said, that FP could be 50-80% of a ride's capacity. So for those 80% rides, it only took a few people with a high wait time tolerance to generate a standby wait line of an hour. With 100% of a ride's capacity going to standby, you need a heck of a lot more people willing to wait an hour to get it to an hour. And in a lot of cases, there aren't enough people to reach that threshold. So 1 hour waits, top out at 45 min because of the number of people with a lower wait time tolerance don't ride.

And this is my big unknown with FP+. My beliefs regarding human behavior lead me to think that: Number of people willing to wait standby for an hour < the number of people willing to pick up a FP < number of people willing to reserve a FP while sitting in their PJs in their home.

Certain rides are going to be overwhelmed with requests, leading to the same issues that occur with Toy Story Mania today. Online FP will sell out, leading people to scramble for whatever few remaining regular FP will be distributed "day of", and into the standby line for the first half hour of operation or so, before the standby line builds. And people who feel their ONLY option to ride is to wait in a standby line, may INCREASE their line tolerance, so a ride that had a 40 min wait with no FP, and an hour wait with FP, may turn into standby lines of 2 hours. Because human behavior changed.

People, especially Disney, hope that human behavior will change in a different way and they will willingly skip Popular activity A to do less popular activity G. And a few of them might. Most people, IMO, are going to focus on that Popular Ride A was unavailable to them (FP+ sold out, FP in park sold out, standby wait time too long).

Also IMO, the best way to change human behavior and therefore wait times is the same as it's always been. Make humans decide to do something else on their own. With attractions worthy of becoming a satisfying enough activity that they will chose over Popular activity A. Either new ones, or upgrading the experiences of existing ones. But that's more money.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:13 PM   #39
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Yes Hope. Insightful.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopemax View Post
Let me give you something to think about: the human element.

You are correct that the ride doesn't differentiate between FP and non-FP users, and that if the capacity hasn't changed, the same number of people get to ride.

But question? Are they the same people?

Wait times get shorter without FP, because some people that previously held FPs CHANGE their behavior. A rider who was willing to wait an hour to do something else, to come back and have a "walk on - 10 min wait," may not be willing to wait 45 min in a line. So they don't ride. So now the person that was waiting in standby has 1 fewer guest virtually in line in front of them. Their specific wait time gets shorter.

When FP was first implemented, people in the know said, that FP could be 50-80% of a ride's capacity. So for those 80% rides, it only took a few people with a high wait time tolerance to generate a standby wait line of an hour. With 100% of a ride's capacity going to standby, you need a heck of a lot more people willing to wait an hour to get it to an hour. And in a lot of cases, there aren't enough people to reach that threshold. So 1 hour waits, top out at 45 min because of the number of people with a lower wait time tolerance don't ride.

And this is my big unknown with FP+. My beliefs regarding human behavior lead me to think that: Number of people willing to wait standby for an hour < the number of people willing to pick up a FP < number of people willing to reserve a FP while sitting in their PJs in their home.

Certain rides are going to be overwhelmed with requests, leading to the same issues that occur with Toy Story Mania today. Online FP will sell out, leading people to scramble for whatever few remaining regular FP will be distributed "day of", and into the standby line for the first half hour of operation or so, before the standby line builds. And people who feel their ONLY option to ride is to wait in a standby line, may INCREASE their line tolerance, so a ride that had a 40 min wait with no FP, and an hour wait with FP, may turn into standby lines of 2 hours. Because human behavior changed.

People, especially Disney, hope that human behavior will change in a different way and they will willingly skip Popular activity A to do less popular activity G. And a few of them might. Most people, IMO, are going to focus on that Popular Ride A was unavailable to them (FP+ sold out, FP in park sold out, standby wait time too long).

Also, IMO, the best way to change human behavior and therefore wait times is the same as it's always been. Make humans decide to do something else on their own. With attractions worthy of becoming a satisfying enough activity that they will chose over Popular activity A. Either new ones, or upgrading the experiences of existing ones. But that's more money.


And then-- People will be at home trying to book FPP for TSM, and it will not be available-- so they will go to a different park that day. Suddnely the parks with attractions that fill the FP's early will have fewer visitors.

Now as it is you actually need to go in to a park to realize if it is crowded or not. ( I don't find the internet sites very accurate) With the new system, judging by how many FPP are available, you can determine weeks ahead of time which park will be crowded. The FP's will be gone, and the parks will be empty. That would be cool.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:27 PM   #41
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.
Quote:
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.
Some great posts and info here. I agree with some, but not all. Not really in the mood to think out my argument but I might get around to it at some point.

I think there is one thing we can all agree on. This system, like the last, will benefit the guests "in the know". I plan on being a guest in the know so am not worried in the least.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:44 PM   #42
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Actually, I think it will benefit those who book the most expensive room*.

Like on the cruise ships, where it used to be any Castaway Club got to book Palo, shore excursions before the rest of the ship. Then they had so many return cruisers, so they split it up into levels, and now only people who have taken 10 cruises get first crack. And resort guests get to book dining 10 days before everyone else.

If you always book concierge at a Deluxe the correct number of days in advance, I'm sure you'll be fine. If you're like me, and stay with your parents at their house (how dare I!) and rarely know I am visiting 180 days in advance, no amount of inside knowledge is going to help, I'm afraid.



* I was going to say "spend the most cash" but realized that's not true either. Because my parents are locals, and because I collect pins and random other Disney stuff, I spend as much on merchandise throughout the year than most people spend on their hotel & tickets. But it doesn't show up as being *my spending*, because it's my parents doing most of the physical buying. So I won't get the benefits, and not even the fancy wrist band will help.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:03 PM   #43
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Actually, I think it will benefit those who book the most expensive room*.

Like on the cruise ships, where it used to be any Castaway Club got to book Palo, shore excursions before the rest of the ship. Then they had so many return cruisers, so they split it up into levels, and now only people who have taken 10 cruises get first crack. And resort guests get to book dining 10 days before everyone else.

If you always book concierge at a Deluxe the correct number of days in advance, I'm sure you'll be fine. If you're like me, and stay with your parents at their house (how dare I!) and rarely know I am visiting 180 days in advance, no amount of inside knowledge is going to help, I'm afraid.



* I was going to say "spend the most cash" but realized that's not true either. Because my parents are locals, and because I collect pins and random other Disney stuff, I spend as much on merchandise throughout the year than most people spend on their hotel & tickets. But it doesn't show up as being *my spending*, because it's my parents doing most of the physical buying. So I won't get the benefits, and not even the fancy wrist band will help.
Well now you're speculating on it being a tiered system. While disney could take that option very easily, I'm not sure its going to go down that way. If they do my opinions change. Oh what an interesting few months its going to be.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekneek
"Availability of a FastPass+ experience, the number of experiences you may select and arrival windows are limited and vary based on factors such as the theme park you are visiting, the attraction or entertainment experience, the time of year and the day of the week, and prior demand. In addition, the number of days for which you can hold FastPass+ selections at any given time is limited."

This feels like an impending disaster, given how horribly Disney implements web services. For many, they still have to call in to reliably get their ADRs scheduled. I have little confidence they will get this right.
I can't help but agree here...

Look, Disney was fantastic from 1925-1990 in inventing, engineering, and building tools and features for the amusement experience, movie and TV production, consumer products, and operational/ management strategies...

But they have been equally horrid in computer technology ever since.

Terribly over budget and slow
To develop...and in some ways completely ineffective.

It's probably assumed they are technology leaders...but that is a paradox in this case.

They can't be trusted here...as anyone who has worked in or around their networked systems can attest to.

I'll watch with eyebrows cocked on this whole "endeavor"
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:26 PM   #45
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I am another who often uses 6+ fastpasses a day and dreads that new system. MY FAMILY will definitely be waiting longer to ride the things we want to ride.
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