Disney rights in regards to resales

[todd222222]

We took the DVC preview a few days ago and while we had never done the preview tour we had talked to DVC on several occasions and know a lot about the program. I don't think we go the normal preview as all we talked about was buying direct vs. resale.

The guide, Roland, was very nice and very professional. I didn't feel we were being played. But he really harped on the fact that Disney can really do anything to members who buy resale, such as take away perks. He wouldn't go into detail about what could be taken away as he said he had no idea and didn't want to speculate, but said by buying direct we would be in a much better position.

So here are my questions:

1. I think if you buy resale now you can't use your points for the "Disney Collection" or something like that. You can trade them within RCI. Seems like I remember when they made this change it only applied to resales after a certain date. Can someone confirm?
2. If number 1 is correct - could they have made it impact all resales since the beginning if they wanted to.

Now I know this trade isn't a very good one, and so I don't think I would miss this "perk" but if they really can change anything what may they do in the future and can they legally not grandfather older resales?

The main concern is is. Can they legally make it were we can't book at other DVC resorts at the 7 month window for people who bought their points via resale? Basically being "stuck" at your home resort. I know they would have a lot of unhappy people if this happens, but can they do that? Can they do that for resales after a certain date?

I don't know much about timeshares laws so these are the questions that came up...what other risks are their to buying resale?

Thanks!

[disneynutz]

Disney is in the business of making money and their timeshare business really is evidence of how far they will go to make a profit.

They already took away exchanges except RCI to current resale buyers and yes for most buyers it doesn't matter but it's the intimidation factor that shows Disney's true colors.

Booking at your home resort is the only guarantee when buying a DVC contract.

Bill

[CarolMN]

Originally Posted by todd222222

We took the DVC preview a few days ago and while we had never done the preview tour we had talked to DVC on several occasions and know a lot about the program. I don't think we go the normal preview as all we talked about was buying direct vs. resale.

The guide, Roland, was very nice and very professional. I didn't feel we were being played. But he really harped on the fact that Disney can really do anything to members who buy resale, such as take away perks. He wouldn't go into detail about what could be taken away as he said he had no idea and didn't want to speculate, but said by buying direct we would be in a much better position.

So here are my questions:

1. I think if you buy resale now you can't use your points for the "Disney Collection" or something like that. You can trade them within RCI. Seems like I remember when they made this change it only applied to resales after a certain date. Can someone confirm?

Yes, that is correct. They said that contracts submitted to ROFR after 3/20/2011 (I think that is the correct year) would not be entitled to use those points for any of the options in The Disney Collection, The Adventurer's Collection or the Concierge Collection.

Originally Posted by todd222222

2. If number 1 is correct - could they have made it impact all resales since the beginning if they wanted to.

Yes. None of those programs is guaranteed by the contract and could be changed or removed at any time at Disney's discretion. It even says so in the contracts members signed. So Disney could decide to change or remove those options for direct purchasers, too. (I do not think they will, though).

Originally Posted by todd222222

Now I know this trade isn't a very good one, and so I don't think I would miss this "perk" but if they really can change anything what may they do in the future and can they legally not grandfather older resales?

The main concern is is. Can they legally make it were we can't book at other DVC resorts at the 7 month window for people who bought their points via resale? Basically being "stuck" at your home resort. I know they would have a lot of unhappy people if this happens, but can they do that? Can they do that for resales after a certain date?

IMO, they cannot take away the ability to book at the existing DVC resorts without removing the whole resort (everyone who owns there) from the Club. There appear to be only very limited situations where they could do that.

In the POS, it says that the Club has a reservation component and a management component and is an appurtenance** of the real estate interest. That means if you transfer the real estate interest,you also transfer the Club membership. So I do not think they can separate the resort from the club just for resale buyers under the existing contracts.

They could possibly establish a new DVC club of some kind and offer direct purchasers the opportunity to move their points to the new club. Maybe the new club would be the only way to book a new DVC resort like the GFV. I don't think they will do that, though.

Originally Posted by todd222222

I don't know much about timeshares laws so these are the questions that came up...what other risks are their to buying resale?

Thanks!

Resale takes longer. You can only pick contracts that are up for sale and you cannot change the number of points the contract includes or the use year. You have to find your own financing.

Since I do not believe one should finance a luxury purchase and since I don't think the restricted options are good values (for points), I really do not see a long-term downside to purchasing resale.

Good luck with your research.

** appurtenance - an incidental right (as a right-of-way) attached to a principal property right and passing in possession with it. From the Merriam Webster Dictionary

[ToddyLu]

That is why buying where you love or really like is so important. I am married to a DVC purist who only wants to stay at AKL

[Dean]

You are only guaranteed the right to attempt reservations at the home resort and other club resorts the same as ALL other members. RCI isn't guaranteed but I think it's a lock. Those are the reasons one should buy in anyway, all else is simply gravy.

[JimMIA]

Originally Posted by todd222222

But he really harped on the fact that Disney can really do anything to members who buy resale, such as take away perks. He wouldn't go into detail about what could be taken away as he said he had no idea and didn't want to speculate, but said by buying direct we would be in a much better position.

Disney can, and HAS, repeatedly added perks and taken perks away from both resale and DIRECT purchasers. In fact, the situation in March 2011 is the first and only situation where both types of purchasers were not treated equally.

Perks are not guaranteed to any purchaser. They come, they go.

[tjkraz]

Originally Posted by todd222222

could they have made it impact all resales since the beginning if they wanted to.

They could have tried. It probably would have increased the likelihood of a legal challenge, which Disney could conceivably lose. But I'm not sure who would have been bold enough to spend money trying to retain benefits which are not worth much (anything?) to begin with.

If DVC really wanted to hurt resale buyers, they could take away the Annual Pass discounts. $600-800 in value per year for a family of 4.

The other approach they could take going forward is introducing NEW perks / benefits to only those who own direct purchase points. 2.5 years ago DVC's former president claimed they were working on that very concept. But the idea appeared to die (for the time being) when the exec was fired.

[chalee94]

Originally Posted by todd222222

The main concern is is. Can they legally make it were we can't book at other DVC resorts at the 7 month window for people who bought their points via resale? Basically being "stuck" at your home resort.

keep in mind that if DVC says i can't trade out of OKW (or BWV or BLT) as a resale owner, that means one less room for a direct purchaser to be able to trade into that resort. so there's a risk of that turning out poorly for both direct and resale purchasers (assuming DVC has the legal ability to do so.)

i wouldn't be shocked if they tried to fiddle with the booking windows to give direct purchasers an advantage but don't know if they can even do that...it is hard to bet against the Mouse (and his lawyers), though - so i recommend buying where you want to stay.

[todd222222]

Thanks all for your comments.

[todd222222]

One other question.

The sales person said something to this effect -

if you buy more than one contract resale you will end up with different member numbers and it becomes very difficult to manage your account.

Whereas if you buy all via direct you will have only one member number and it's much easier to manage.

Is it an assumption that if I buy add on via direct I would get the same resort/use year? Or if I buy other resorts do they still keep them in the same member number.

Does this really matter? I don't really understand the benefit to a single member number.

At this point I *think* when we add on it will be for the same resort and probably the same use year.

Thanks,
Todd

[Breyean]

Originally Posted by chalee94

keep in mind that if DVC says i can't trade out of OKW (or BWV or BLT) as a resale owner, that means one less room for a direct purchaser to be able to trade into that resort. so there's a risk of that turning out poorly for both direct and resale purchasers (assuming DVC has the legal ability to do so.)

i wouldn't be shocked if they tried to fiddle with the booking windows to give direct purchasers an advantage but don't know if they can even do that...it is hard to bet against the Mouse (and his lawyers), though - so i recommend buying where you want to stay.

I would be curious to see how they would work it with members who own both direct and resale points, sometimes some of each at on resort.

For example, someone owns 200 points direct at SSR plus another 150 resale, also at SSR. For argument's sake say those are restricted points.

Now the member wants to use all 350 points for booking at 11 months at SSR, or at 7 months at another resort. So can he only use the 200 direct at the 11 month/7 month windows, and then the other 150 at say 9 months (assuming this is a change from 11 for restricted resales) or 5 months (again, a change from the 7 month non home window now)?

This makes my head swim.

[Mel522]

Originally Posted by todd222222

One other question.

The sales person said something to this effect -

if you buy more than one contract resale you will end up with different member numbers and it becomes very difficult to manage your account.

Whereas if you buy all via direct you will have only one member number and it's much easier to manage.

Is it an assumption that if I buy add on via direct I would get the same resort/use year? Or if I buy other resorts do they still keep them in the same member number.

Does this really matter? I don't really understand the benefit to a single member number.

At this point I *think* when we add on it will be for the same resort and probably the same use year.

Thanks,
Todd

I believe if you have the same use year and the same name(s) on the contract, you will have the same member number regardless if you buy direct or resale.

The benefit of one member number is that you can pool the points of the contracts together to make a single reservation (11 months if you book your home resort and all your points are in your home resort, and 7 months if you combine points from different resorts.) If you have multiple member numbers you would have to do a transfer of the points and each member number is only allowed one per year.

[WebmasterDoc]

Originally Posted by todd222222

One other question.

The sales person said something to this effect -

if you buy more than one contract resale you will end up with different member numbers and it becomes very difficult to manage your account.

Whereas if you buy all via direct you will have only one member number and it's much easier to manage.

Is it an assumption that if I buy add on via direct I would get the same resort/use year? Or if I buy other resorts do they still keep them in the same member number.

Does this really matter? I don't really understand the benefit to a single member number.

At this point I *think* when we add on it will be for the same resort and probably the same use year.

Thanks,
Todd

If you add-on direct from DVC, all contracts will have the same Use Year in order to be in the same contract, regardless of the resort owned. If you purchase a different Use Year direct, it would also be a different membership number.

We originally purchased direct in 1993 (there were no other options at that time) and added on to that contract 7 times - all with the same Use Year. We later purchased 3 additional contracts al by resale and all with different Use Years - giving us 4 different membership numbers. We have never experienced an issue managing 4 membership numbers - although we have sold one of those and are down to only 3 membership numbers at this time.

IMO, the only "benefit" of having a single membership number is that there is one banking deadline.

With multiple Use Years, we have the luxury of using different memberships to maximize reservation strategy. While we have never had to cancel a reservation on short notice and have never had any points expire, those with a single Use Year should be cautious with reservations late in their Use Year since a cancellation could present a challenge to using those points.

We still have three Memberships, with three different Use Years and two different resorts. Currently DVC has been allowing transfers between those memberships without regard to the limit of one per Use Year (that could change tomorrow).

My experience has been very positive managing multiple memberships, Use Years and resorts.

YMMV.

[chalee94]

Originally Posted by todd222222

One other question.

The sales person said something to this effect...

do you know how to tell if a timeshare salesperson is lying?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by chalee94

i wouldn't be shocked if they tried to fiddle with the booking windows to give direct purchasers an advantage but don't know if they can even do that...it is hard to bet against the Mouse (and his lawyers), though - so i recommend buying where you want to stay.

I think the only way they could possibly try would be a VIP program giving some a wait list priority over others, dramatically unlikely IMO.

Originally Posted by todd222222

One other question.

The sales person said something to this effect -

if you buy more than one contract resale you will end up with different member numbers and it becomes very difficult to manage your account.

Whereas if you buy all via direct you will have only one member number and it's much easier to manage.

Is it an assumption that if I buy add on via direct I would get the same resort/use year? Or if I buy other resorts do they still keep them in the same member number.

Does this really matter? I don't really understand the benefit to a single member number.

At this point I *think* when we add on it will be for the same resort and probably the same use year.

Thanks,
Todd

I know others have addressed it but I have a slightly different take. Currently all contracts titled the same are combined whether retail, resale or a combo. They COULD prevent combining future resales to current contracts if they chose but I think that's unlikely. With the current banking rules it only matters if you're trying to combine points for a single reservation and mostly only for the orphaned night you don't have enough points for. There are other situations where it has minor effects but not enough to matter, IMO.

Originally Posted by Breyean

I would be curious to see how they would work it with members who own both direct and resale points, sometimes some of each at on resort.

For example, someone owns 200 points direct at SSR plus another 150 resale, also at SSR. For argument's sake say those are restricted points.

Now the member wants to use all 350 points for booking at 11 months at SSR, or at 7 months at another resort. So can he only use the 200 direct at the 11 month/7 month windows, and then the other 150 at say 9 months (assuming this is a change from 11 for restricted resales) or 5 months (again, a change from the 7 month non home window now)?

This makes my head swim.

It's hard to be sure. For simplicity lets assume they are under one master listed together. As it currently stands, and I don't ever see it changing, you could combine for 11 month and 7 month reservations depending on the home resort. Obviously you couldn't for cash type exchanges. It's possible they could mess with this but I think it's extremely unlikely UNLESS they make it so you can't combine contracts going forward then there are some inherent issues.