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Old 02-22-2013, 01:22 PM   #106
Metsfan520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrhpd View Post
This is the second thread she started on pageants this week. Previously she asked if there were any pageant coaches in Arkansas. Perhaps that one didn't get the responses she was looking for.
Plus she bumped up an old thread (from 2011) about that TV show on these pageants.

and if you're still looking OP, I don't care for these pageants at all.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by luvsJack View Post
DD has never done pageants, so I don't know that much about them but I am going to guess that Toddlers and Tiaras is as "factual" about the pageant world as Dance Moms is about the world of competitive dance.

As for the make-up, hair, etc.--all that is done in dance from the time they are very young. (or at least it was when dd was in dance) I don't see the difference on THAT. I don't like the flippers, but maybe I would feel different if dd was actually in that world. Costumes can sometimes be a bit questionable in dance as well. I wouldn't go spend the kind of money the pageant moms do on one dress, but again, that's just me. A lot of people wouldn't pay the kind of money we do for a school activity so who am I to judge?

All that said, as in any thing else involving kids; its more about how the child is parented than it is about being in a pageant. The kids that act like brats and think the world revolves around them are that way because their parents allow them to act that way.

As for as what good it does. Well, if a girl grows up being in pageants, when she gets to the age of being in some that will win her scholarships and such; she has a leg up on the competition. And at that point it stops being about "just looks". Actually, I have seen some very young girls win pageants and had to agree that it wasn't just about looks then either.

And the kids do learn poise and grace. As for the competition, I don't see it as that much different than anything else. I have seen boys kick and scream at losing a baseball game. Some kids handle it better than others.

Oh, and OP you say she doesn't like practice but does great at the pageant. From the time DD was 3 years old and in dance, she HATED all the practice and work but LOVED to perform and always did well. She finally learned that if she wanted on that stage, she had to go through all the work to get there.
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Like I said, dd is not in pageants. She was in dance at one time--ballet, tap and hip hop. Now she is in Show Choir.

Not sure what it is that you feel sexualizes--is it the costumes, the make up, or their presence on stage?

The dresses they wear do not sexualize them. So maybe the costumes for their talent or whatever its called. I haven't seen any that are so different than a lot of dance costumes or cheer uniforms (and very young girls are getting into cheer these days). Or maybe its the make-up, well it stands to reason that if a child is in a beauty contest that make up is going to be used on stage--same for dance and competitive cheer. Some too much and over the top and some not so much. Make up has to be worn pretty heavy to show up under those lights.

How does it compute? One has nothing to do with the other.
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I would like to preface this by emphasizing that I am not suggesting every single pageant girl is an idiot.

That being said, does anyone remember about ten years ago or so the Miss America pageant added some sort of quiz portion to the final competition? I just remember thinking it was hysterical that the organization says the stereotype that beauty queens are stupid is a bad rap and they are actually really smart, accomplished young women and blah blah blah. I assume they did the quiz portion that year to provide support for their position.

The quiz was given to the ten finalists and I believe there were ten questions. I wasn't even thinking about the questions and got eight correct with no trouble. I think one, maybe two, of the contestants got eight right. The only question they all got right was the question asking where the next summer Olympics would be held. These were not difficult questions. However, the five or however many that made it to the next round only answered two or three of the ten questions correctly. So basically, the organization argues that they are beautiful, intelligent, accomplished young women and then the ones that the move to the next round are the biggest airheads and morons left. Smooth.

Mmhmm.....yeah those girls were Rhodes scholars in the making. They only did that portion of the pageants once. Maybe because it made the entire pageant industry look like idiots? I don't know but it sure was funny.
Here's my issue.....my now 37 y/o dd danced for 12 years. My now 19 y/o dd danced for 15 years...tap, ballet, jazz, hip hop, irish step, contemporary. She is also now a theatre major. She has done many, many shows. As have I. Believe me when I say that makeup is not needed at the level it is used for these pageants!!! Yes, you need more than usual makeup for the stage, but it's just a bit more then street makeup..unless you are going for some type of character. Other than that?? No heavy, over the top makeup, no fake teeth, no spray tans, no worries about being outside playing and being bruised!!
I think most people would be hard pressed to match up the 'before' photo of a 7 y/o little girl (just the normal every day look of a little child out in her yard playing), to the photo of the 'pageant' girl. It amazes me to see the difference that pageant stuff makes. These girls are not being judged on anything 'normal'. They don't bear any resemblance to their normal selves.
And to compare pageants to dance??? Really??? The most I ever spend, in all those years of dance, for a costume was about $120. Most ran much less. No special make up, no manicures, no fake teeth. To try to make a comparison between dance outfits and what those 'glitz' dresses cost??? Not even in the same ball park!!! Nowhere close.

And the Miss America pageant? If you read up on the vast majority of those girls?? Most are either in college or headed there in the next year or so. I know that back when I was in college, I was our winter carnival queen one year. I got an invitation, for the state pageant committee (that leads up to the Miss America pageant) to participate in future pageants. BUT..my gpa had to be above a certain point. No dummies were allowed to participate. So, yeah, they kind of are accomplished, intelligent young women. Not anywhere near the same catagory as the 'glitz' kids.

When I looked at those photos, of the girls in that link?? All I could think of were the old Madame Alexander dolls....nothing normal or life-like about them at all. Just little dolls.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:34 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by goofy4tink View Post
Here's my issue.....my now 37 y/o dd danced for 12 years. My now 19 y/o dd danced for 15 years...tap, ballet, jazz, hip hop, irish step, contemporary. She is also now a theatre major. She has done many, many shows. As have I. Believe me when I say that makeup is not needed at the level it is used for these pageants!!! Yes, you need more than usual makeup for the stage, but it's just a bit more then street makeup..unless you are going for some type of character. Other than that?? No heavy, over the top makeup, no fake teeth, no spray tans, no worries about being outside playing and being bruised!!
I think most people would be hard pressed to match up the 'before' photo of a 7 y/o little girl (just the normal every day look of a little child out in her yard playing), to the photo of the 'pageant' girl. It amazes me to see the difference that pageant stuff makes. These girls are not being judged on anything 'normal'. They don't bear any resemblance to their normal selves.
And to compare pageants to dance??? Really??? The most I ever spend, in all those years of dance, for a costume was about $120. Most ran much less. No special make up, no manicures, no fake teeth. To try to make a comparison between dance outfits and what those 'glitz' dresses cost??? Not even in the same ball park!!! Nowhere close.

And the Miss America pageant? If you read up on the vast majority of those girls?? Most are either in college or headed there in the next year or so. I know that back when I was in college, I was our winter carnival queen one year. I got an invitation, for the state pageant committee (that leads up to the Miss America pageant) to participate in future pageants. BUT..my gpa had to be above a certain point. No dummies were allowed to participate. So, yeah, they kind of are accomplished, intelligent young women. Not anywhere near the same catagory as the 'glitz' kids.

When I looked at those photos, of the girls in that link?? All I could think of were the old Madame Alexander dolls....nothing normal or life-like about them at all. Just little dolls.
I can only go by the amount of make up that was needed to be seen on stage when dd danced and now when she performs with show choir. Back then--any make up would be "heavy" as she was a bit young for make up. But it was a full face and the eyes were a color to go well with the costume and heavy. Now-- Concert choir is regular make up--a bit heavier with red lipstick (never have understood that requirement but whatever), show choir is well done, heavy make up including that same blasted red lipstick (dd HATES the stuff). This year they are using natural colors, smokey eye but in order for it to actually be seen it is heavily done on the eyes and if the blush isn't heavy enough, they look washed out and dead. Several schools get a professional to come in and do the make up before a competition.

I realize the cost of dance costumes is no where near what those dresses. I was comparing the look of the costumes to some of the outfits they wear.

The girls in those photo are heavily made up, no doubt about it. But they are beautiful. Most look professionally done. It definitely makes them look older.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #109
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Personally I don't see a single lesson pageants teach that can't be taught in more age-appropriate and less superficial ways. And getting a child involved in such a time and energy intensive activity before the child is able to express any interests or desires of her own puts that little girl in the position of having to defy a lifetime of expectations if she wants to stop doing pageants or would rather try some other activities.

I want my girls to be appreciated for their talents, personality, and determination, not for their outward appearances. And I personally don't see any value in pushing kids into any activity (other than life-skill things like learning to swim) before they are old enough to express an interest. I want my kids to use extracurriculars to explore things that they think they'd like, not to satisfy my (or DH's) desires.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:12 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Hrhpd View Post
New rule in cheer: Everybody except seniors must have full top uniforms. No more crop tops for the little ones. And there is a rule on the length of skirts/shorts. So, you can't use competitive cheer as an example.



The cheer industry is trying to distance themselves from any kind of pageantry image. They want the focus on the athletics of the sport, not the imagery. So yes, starting in a couple of years (need to let the current uniforms age out), crop tops is out for everyone except seniors and anything suggestive is forbidden. Starting this year, all teams must remain covered up unless on the mat or at awards. So, everyone has to wear their warmups over their uniforms. So, no little tinies running around in a crop top and teeny skirt.
Since the OP trolled and poofed, I will digress a bit.

This is interesting. My daughter is 15. When she was 9-10ish we had a family friend whose daughter was the same age and very into cheer. She had encouraged my daughter to try it. When we checked it out I was appalled. Tiny, skimpy costumes, very provocative dance moves, and girls running around in tiny leotard material crop tops and booty shorts. Not to mention the girls stood outside local businesses and "canned" for donations in those outfits! I couldn't believe it. We (okay me) decided it wasn't for her.

I am glad to see things have changed.

The difference I see between wearing make-up and hair for dance and cheer is that dance and cheer actually have skills that the children have to learn. Pageants you just stand there and look artificially good.

I clicked the link a PP gave for images of glitz pageant contestants. I was left feeling vaguely ill. It was truly disturbing. It also seems that the majority of girls are blue-eyed and blonde-haired. (maybe artificially so) My girls would never make it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:29 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by luvsJack View Post
The girls in those photo are heavily made up, no doubt about it. But they are beautiful. Most look professionally done. It definitely makes them look older.
Beautiful? No. I think they look bizarre and a little creepy. Definitely not beautiful.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:32 PM   #112
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Beautiful? No. I think they look bizarre and a little creepy. Definitely not beautiful.
They look like creepy dolls.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:35 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by badblackpug

Since the OP trolled and poofed, I will digress a bit.

This is interesting. My daughter is 15. When she was 9-10ish we had a family friend whose daughter was the same age and very into cheer. She had encouraged my daughter to try it. When we checked it out I was appalled. Tiny, skimpy costumes, very provocative dance moves, and girls running around in tiny leotard material crop tops and booty shorts. Not to mention the girls stood outside local businesses and "canned" for donations in those outfits! I couldn't believe it. We (okay me) decided it wasn't for her.

I am glad to see things have changed.

The difference I see between wearing make-up and hair for dance and cheer is that dance and cheer actually have skills that the children have to learn. Pageants you just stand there and look artificially good.

I clicked the link a PP gave for images of glitz pageant contestants. I was left feeling vaguely ill. It was truly disturbing. It also seems that the majority of girls are blue-eyed and blonde-haired. (maybe artificially so) My girls would never make it.
I agree with all.

Thinking about dance and cheer I can see the need to emphasize the face some because of the continual action involved. So makeup to a degree is appropriate. I have yet to see 5 year old dancers with the kind of fake that goes with those pageants. They objectify young girls equating them with sexy adults in similar outfits.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:44 PM   #114
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http://http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net...53861475_n.jpg

Not sure this link will work but the child in this picture is beautiful. Does she look like a doll? Yes. Is it something I would have wanted dd to run around daily looking like at that age? No. Nor do I think these girls run around looking like this all the time. Somehow I would imagine most of these girls do have other things in their lives besides pageants.

I am sure there are some bad things that come from pageants. We never tried them. I can't have a real opinion about them because dd never participated in one.

I do agree that that the make up for dance and cheer or the costumes in dance are all a part of a bigger picture that includes a skill and a talent. Do doubt about that.

I am not a defender of pageants. There are just a lot of gripes about something because of what is see on TV and yet we all know how fake most of these shows are.

If the OP is for real and pageants is what she and her dd want to do--so be it. As long as she is raising her child to be a productive member of society that is a kind, loving and compassionate human being; who cares if she has been in pageants? And hey, if it builds the child's self esteem to do this--that is a good thing. And a lot better than having something that tears their self esteem down.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:50 PM   #115
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I agree with all.

Thinking about dance and cheer I can see the need to emphasize the face some because of the continual action involved. So makeup to a degree is appropriate. I have yet to see 5 year old dancers with the kind of fake that goes with those pageants. They objectify young girls equating them with sexy adults in similar outfits.
Sorry, former dance mom here. Dance is a HUGE offender in the arena of objectifying very young girls in sexy outfits. You wake up pretty darn fast in the morning when you go down to the hotel lobby to grab a coffee while your daughter heads for her dance workshop to behold six and eight year olds striding through the lobby, unescorted, in bitty booty shorts, bejeweled bras, full-face stage make-up, including false eyelashes and nothing else -- on their way to dance a full eight-hour slate of classes, not perform.

Kills me that an industry who's primary consumers are females and most instructors and studio owners are females, yet they generally train sexy style by default to the girls.

The only edge dance can offer over pageants in my mind is it's a great physical activity, you can learn some definite skills, it can be tremendous fun and you'll probably end up with tremendous posture as a dancer.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:54 PM   #116
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So, I had a heart to heart with my daughter. She says she likes pageants, but doesn't LOVE them. I made her a promise to pull her out of pageants and just keep her in competitive cheer. I think I need to dig a little deeper. Thoughts??
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:55 PM   #117
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http://media.bonnint.net/seattle/7/747/74763.jpg

This one works. I am assuming the picture with the blond hair is her without the makeup and such. Very pretty little girl.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:56 PM   #118
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OP, are you having feelings of wanting to be done with pageants? When your twins are born, you are going to be experiencing a whole new world and doing pageants may not even be feasible. Maybe your questioning of the whole thing is as much about your own involvement in the process as it is about your daughter's.
When the twins are born, I most likely are going to have DD take a break until I can get on my feet again.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:57 PM   #119
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So, I had a heart to heart with my daughter. She says she likes pageants, but doesn't LOVE them. I made her a promise to pull her out of pageants and just keep her in competitive cheer. I think I need to dig a little deeper. Thoughts??
I would follow her lead. If she wants out of them, let her out. She may want to do more later and that's ok. She may never return to pageants and that's ok too

Competitive cheer is a great sport.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:03 PM   #120
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Sorry, former dance mom here. Dance is a HUGE offender in the arena of objectifying very young girls in sexy outfits. You wake up pretty darn fast in the morning when you go down to the hotel lobby to grab a coffee while your daughter heads for her dance workshop to behold six and eight year olds striding through the lobby, unescorted, in bitty booty shorts, bejeweled bras, full-face stage make-up, including false eyelashes and nothing else -- on their way to dance a full eight-hour slate of classes, not perform.

Kills me that an industry who's primary consumers are females and most instructors and studio owners are females, yet they generally train sexy style by default to the girls.

The only edge dance can offer over pageants in my mind is it's a great physical activity, you can learn some definite skills, it can be tremendous fun and you'll probably end up with tremendous posture as a dancer.
Well you have much more knowledge than I do on this. I was making a guess, trying to follow a thought process in my head. No dancers in my life.

Sad information though. :/ especially that women encourage these stereotypes in these young girls.
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