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Old 02-14-2013, 10:00 AM   #76
crashbb
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Originally Posted by lost*in*cyberspace View Post
You were kidding when you posted this, right? A free seat
It is my understanding that a child in a car seat is the one situtation where an FA can force someone to move (so that the child is in a seat that isn't causing obstruction and beside a parent). So, really, the FAA is already forcing them to do what Lewisc suggests - more, actually, since a parent doesn't have to pay for a seat at all and is still certain to be sitting beside their child.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:05 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by goofy4tink View Post
Why would it be okay to give someone a free middle seat?? Yes, a parent needs to be with their child if that child is in a carseat. But again....that parent needs to plan accordingly. They need to book two seats together in order to be seated next to their car seated child. Just curious as to your reasoning.
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Originally Posted by lost*in*cyberspace View Post
You were kidding when you posted this, right? A free seat
To be clear the parent would still have to pay for the ticket, I'm only talking about waiving the seat selection fee for one middle seat.

There are a variety of passengers who need to be accommodated and are accommodated without paying extra.

Passengers with a service animal are generally entitled to a bulkhead seat, even if that meets moving an elite passenger or passenger who paid extra.

Legacy airlines hold back seats for gate assignment. They recognize a need to accommodate parent with (very) young kids.

I've been on Southwest flights where the FA made it clear the plane won't be leaving until a passenger volunteers to move in exchange for a drink coupon. They would have been eligible for family mid-boarding but their incoming flight landed after boarding had started. Airlines are in the service business. Telling a passenger with a tight connection they have to wait hours, or even overnight, isn't the right thing to do. I read, not sure if it's a real fact or an internet fact, the Southwest FA is suppose to block seats when they know the flight will have late connecting passengers.

99% of these threads the posters are wrong. A child old enough to ride a school bus without a parent is old enough to sit in a plane a few rows (or more) from a parent. A parent who doesn't agree should pay for an assigned seat.

An infant in a car seat. NO. Needs to sit next to a parent. That's the kind of accommodation every other airline would make. I thought car seats were suppose to go in the window seat. Is that a rule or just a good idea.

Spirit can only push the envelope so far before the government steps in.

One other point. I think a passenger should be entitled to drinkable water, free. I have no problem if it's a paper cup you fill from the bathroom sink, as long as that water meets health standards for potable water. Otherwise a jug of tap water from the airport would be OK.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:55 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Lewisc View Post
I thought car seats were suppose to go in the window seat. Is that a rule or just a good idea.
If it's a rule, it's not always followed. The last time my family flew to Orlando, DD had a window seat. The middle seat was taken by a child in a car seat. The family asked DD if she wanted to move to the aisle (where the mother was), but she declined and kept the window. FA saw the car seat in the middle and didn't say a thing. It's possible they thought DD "belonged" to the other family, although the other family preboarded and DD didn't.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:46 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by sam_gordon View Post
If it's a rule, it's not always followed. The last time my family flew to Orlando, DD had a window seat. The middle seat was taken by a child in a car seat. The family asked DD if she wanted to move to the aisle (where the mother was), but she declined and kept the window. FA saw the car seat in the middle and didn't say a thing. It's possible they thought DD "belonged" to the other family, although the other family preboarded and DD didn't.
It depends on the plane, car seat etc. If in the view of the FA, the passenger in the window is not "blocked" then I believe the car seat can be in the middle seat.

However, if you were cheap enough to fly Spirit you probably are going with the lap child method anyway so you won't have to worry about a car seat LOL!
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:56 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewisc View Post
To be clear the parent would still have to pay for the ticket, I'm only talking about waiving the seat selection fee for one middle seat.

There are a variety of passengers who need to be accommodated and are accommodated without paying extra.

Passengers with a service animal are generally entitled to a bulkhead seat, even if that meets moving an elite passenger or passenger who paid extra.

Legacy airlines hold back seats for gate assignment. They recognize a need to accommodate parent with (very) young kids.

I've been on Southwest flights where the FA made it clear the plane won't be leaving until a passenger volunteers to move in exchange for a drink coupon. They would have been eligible for family mid-boarding but their incoming flight landed after boarding had started. Airlines are in the service business. Telling a passenger with a tight connection they have to wait hours, or even overnight, isn't the right thing to do. I read, not sure if it's a real fact or an internet fact, the Southwest FA is suppose to block seats when they know the flight will have late connecting passengers.

99% of these threads the posters are wrong. A child old enough to ride a school bus without a parent is old enough to sit in a plane a few rows (or more) from a parent. A parent who doesn't agree should pay for an assigned seat.

An infant in a car seat. NO. Needs to sit next to a parent. That's the kind of accommodation every other airline would make. I thought car seats were suppose to go in the window seat. Is that a rule or just a good idea.

Spirit can only push the envelope so far before the government steps in.

One other point. I think a passenger should be entitled to drinkable water, free. I have no problem if it's a paper cup you fill from the bathroom sink, as long as that water meets health standards for potable water. Otherwise a jug of tap water from the airport would be OK.
Ooops, sorry. Misunderstood you. My bad!!
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:08 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewisc View Post
99% of these threads the posters are wrong. A child old enough to ride a school bus without a parent is old enough to sit in a plane a few rows (or more) from a parent. A parent who doesn't agree should pay for an assigned seat.

An infant in a car seat. NO. Needs to sit next to a parent. That's the kind of accommodation every other airline would make. I thought car seats were suppose to go in the window seat. Is that a rule or just a good idea.
The operating airline's Contract of Carriage clearly spells out what the passengers are entitled to and not entitled. If there is any question or concern, then we should Google the CoC and just look through them. They are not long, and pretty easy to navigate.

For instance, here is Spirit Airline's CoC on Infants and seating:

Quote:
5.3. Infants

5.3.1. Spirit encourages all adults traveling with children under the age of two (2) to purchase a seat for the child and secure the child in an FAA approved car seat. A paying adult customer may carry on his or her lap one child over seven (7) days and under two (2) years of age. Spirit reserves the right to request documented proof of age for any traveler 2 years of age or younger. Please be prepared to provide documentation (birth certificate, passport, etc) upon request.

5.3.2. If space is available after boarding, or if a separate reservation has been made for the child over seven (7) days and under two (2) years of age, the child may travel in a separate seat, provided that the child must be securely placed in an FAA approved child restraint system (car seat) that conforms to the following guidelines:

5.3.2.1. Child Seats manufactured before 2/26/1985 must bear the label "This child restraint system conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards."

5.3.2.2. Child Seats manufactured after 2/25/1985 must bear the following two labels:
1) This child restraint system conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards and
2) This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft.

5.3.2.3. Child Seats bearing the approval of a foreign government or seats manufactured under the standards of the United Nations are also acceptable.

5.3.3. An infant, age seven (7) days or less or an infant requiring an incubator or other life-support systems shall be denied boarding.

5.3.4. On Spirit Aircraft there are specific placement policies for child car seats. See HELP on www.spirit.com.
Since the CoC does not mention anything about children of any age being required to sit next to an adult, it is not a mandate. Further, here is a news article where good ol' Senator Chuck Schumer was asking airlines to let families sit together despite airline fee for seats:
http://www.wkbw.com/news/local/Schum...154793615.html

Quote:
WASHINGTON D.C. ( release ) United States Senator Charles E. Schumer called on U.S. airlines to allow families with children to sit together in consecutive seats without having to pay a premium for an aisle or window seat assignment.

...Children need access to their parents and parents need access to their children, continued Schumer. Unnecessary airline fees shouldnt serve as a literal barrier between mother and child.
This is from a US Senator, so obviously there are no rules mandating children sit with parents.

On Spirit, no pay, no play

In summary, review the Contract of Carriage before purchasing tickets, and buy seats if the airline has this requirement to sit next to each other!


Quote:
Originally Posted by dadr View Post
On Spirit a carry on is $5 more than a checked bag. That makes no sense from their cost basis because checked luggage is nearly always bigger and heavier, requiring more fuel to transport, and also has additional labor costs for loading and unloading. That's why it is annoying - Spirit must think that discouraging carry ons will significantly speed up the boarding and deplaning process (I doubt it really does) so they artificially inflate the fee not consistent with the actual cost of the service relative to checked bags.
I think it is just to make money and isn't really tied to the actual cost of transport. No legacy airline charges for the same carry on, so it isn't really a cost issue.


Oh! I forgot, the moral of the story? Fly with WN (Southwest) or a legacy airline and not cheap-o-air of any flavor!
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:04 PM   #82
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Greysword--I'm not doing a good job wording my posts. I understand Spirit doesn't have anything in their CoC requiring parents be given a seat next to a young child. I also know that currently their is no government rule requiring same.

My post said I though letting a parent pay for a window or an aisle seat and not charging a seat fee for an adjacent middle seat for a young child is a reasonable policy. Is there anything in my post which even implies such policy is required? Southwest offers family mid-boarding. Other airlines hold back seats for gate assignment so they can accommodate those passengers. Goodwill, which is something Spirit thinks of as a negative, is one reason. Might deter future government rules which might be worse, from the viewpoint of the airline. Your quote from Senator Schumer makes my point.

Spirit offers the absolute minimum amenities required by law.

European airlines operate different.

BA for example

Quote:
You may be able to reserve seats for free if you have an infant in your booking, otherwise there will be a charge.

If you decide not to reserve your seats in advance, we'll do it for you 5 days before departure. If you can't be seated together, we'll make sure each child is seated with an adult from your group.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewisc View Post
Greysword--I'm not doing a good job wording my posts. I understand Spirit doesn't have anything in their CoC requiring parents be given a seat next to a young child. I also know that currently their is no government rule requiring same.

My post said I though letting a parent pay for a window or an aisle seat and not charging a seat fee for an adjacent middle seat for a young child is a reasonable policy. Is there anything in my post which even implies such policy is required? Southwest offers family mid-boarding. Other airlines hold back seats for gate assignment so they can accommodate those passengers. Goodwill, which is something Spirit thinks of as a negative, is one reason. Might deter future government rules which might be worse, from the viewpoint of the airline. Your quote from Senator Schumer makes my point.

Spirit offers the absolute minimum amenities required by law.

European airlines operate different.

BA for example
No worries, and I agree with you. I was attempting to build on your post, not contradict it.

Personally, I view our discussions not not for us; rather, for the community as a whole, and I wanted to expand on your statements while letting everyone know where to find the information. you are correct that many posts are inaccurate, so I wanted to help them along on where to find the right info

Keep posting, Lewis, I think you are one of the knowledgeable people here.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:49 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Lewisc View Post
To be clear the parent would still have to pay for the ticket, I'm only talking about waiving the seat selection fee for one middle seat.
That distinction was not made clear in your original post.

The topic of seat assignments for families has been discussed on internet travel forums ad nauseum. If you are concerned about this issue, your time would be better spent contacting your elected officials rather than arguing on chat bards.

Last edited by lost*in*cyberspace; 02-14-2013 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:48 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lost*in*cyberspace View Post
That distinction was not made clear in your original post.

The topic of seat assignments for families has been discussed on internet travel forums ad nauseum. If you are concerned about this issue, your time would be better spent contacting your elected officials rather than arguing on chat bards.
Oh come on now....talk about no pixiedust!!! This has been a very civil discussion, no arguing happening at all!! This board is always open to civil discussion.
Carry on guys.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:21 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by lost*in*cyberspace View Post
That distinction was not made clear in your original post.

The topic of seat assignments for families has been discussed on internet travel forums ad nauseum. If you are concerned about this issue, your time would be better spent contacting your elected officials rather than arguing on chat bards.
This thread is talking about paying for assigned seats. My post talked about a free seat, not a free ticket. It was clear. I understand sometimes people don't read a post the way it was written. I realized that was the case.

You've read my previous posts. You couldn't possibly think I was suggesting giving free tickets.

I'm not in the least concerned with this issue and have no reason to contact my elected officials. I draw a distinction between a single mother poster who thought she should get a free seat (assignment) next to her 16 year old son and a parent who wants to sit next to an infant.

My point. Spirit's deceptive pricing practices resulted in government regulations. Should Spirit get a reputation for splitting parents from young children (particularly those in car seats) government regulations might follow. Whatever rule the government comes up with is likely to require more then my suggestion of charging one seat selection fee, waiving one fee, for parents with a kid in a car seat (maybe even kids under 5).

Last edited by Lewisc; 02-15-2013 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:06 AM   #87
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For price, I need to take spirit next week for the first time! How is it as far as safetynand on time record?

Thanks!
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:17 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Dorisk3
I also didn't want to pay the seat assignment with Spirit and assumed that there is no way that they would separate parents from their young children. Boy, was I wrong. We were seated all over the plane, and no one was willing to move for us.

That is the main reason I won't fly Spirit anymore at any price- it's bad enough to have to pay for baggage, but to pay to sit next to my kids is going too far.
Ugh.. That's why the base tickets are so cheap. Don't blame the airline.

If I paid to preselect a seat, I'm not going to switch with some parent or kid so I can be squeezed into a middle seat in between two fat guys in the back of the plane. Sorry mom, next time reserve your seats.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:48 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by crashbb View Post
It is my understanding that a child in a car seat is the one situtation where an FA can force someone to move (so that the child is in a seat that isn't causing obstruction and beside a parent). So, really, the FAA is already forcing them to do what Lewisc suggests - more, actually, since a parent doesn't have to pay for a seat at all and is still certain to be sitting beside their child.
I seemed to have missed this post, and I wanted to address this issue, since many of the flyers in this community have small children (or may be traveling with them).

Crash, your understanding is close.

MommyPoints (Summer Hull on the Travel Channel's website) had a situation regarding her daughter being pulled out of an FAA approved car seat for their flight:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/mommyp...a-trip-issues/

In the end, I looked up the FAA rules regarding this, as I was curious, and found this FAA Circular 120-87B section 10. F. (9/17/2010):

Quote:
Operators Prohibiting CRS Use.

No aircraft operator may prohibit a child from using an approved CRS when the parent/guardian purchases a seat for the child. If an approved CRS, for which a ticket has been purchased, does not fit in a particular seat on the aircraft, the aircraft operator has the responsibility to accommodate the CRS in another seat in the same class of service. The regulations also permit an aircraft operator to use its discretion in identifying the most appropriate forward-facing passenger seat location, considering safe operating practices.
(bold is mine)

The only thing that comes close to talking about parent and child placement on the aircraft seems to be section 10. B.:

Quote:
b. Proper Use of CRS.

If a child occupies a CRS, a parent/guardian must accompany the child and the aircraft operator must comply with the requirements that the child is properly secured in the CRS, the CRS is properly secured in a forward-facing seat, the child does not exceed the weight limits of the CRS, and the CRS is approved and has the proper labels or markings.
(bold is mine) Based on the Contract of Carriage I posted in this and other threads, airlines generally define "accompany" as being on the same aircraft and in the same cabin area (economy, first class, business, etc).

You can read the circular at:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...%20120-87B.pdf


Also as a follow-up, there was a question regarding where a CRS may be placed on the aircraft (either this post or another), and this Circular addresses that, too:

Quote:
18.
PLACEMENT OF CRS ON THE AIRCRAFT.
CRSs must be installed in forward-facing aircraft seats, in accordance with instructions on the label. This includes placing the CRS in the appropriate forward or aft-facing direction as indicated on the label for the size of the child. A window seat is the preferred location; however, other locations may be acceptable, provided the CRS does not block the egress of any passenger, including the child’s parent or guardian, to the aisle used to evacuate the aircraft. The regulations contained in §§ 91.107, 121.311, 125.211, and 135.128 allow aircraft operators to determine the most appropriate passenger seat location for CRSs based on safe operating practices. In making this determination, an aircraft operator should consider the following.
Just adding to the discussions :P


Now we know...



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Last edited by Greysword; 02-15-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:55 PM   #90
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Greysword, again the question isn't if an airline is required to seat a parent next to an infant in a car seat. The question is if most airlines will do that without a government rule or even a written policy (in their CoC).

crashbb believes some FA can force a passenger to move from an assigned seat in order to accomplish that. He didn't say the FA is required to do so.


The "fine print" in the CoC tells us we must obey the instructions of the flight crew, including the FA. Not much we can do if we're told by the FA to give up our seat.
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