What A Sad, Boring Place

[DVC-Landbaron]

Everything you just said about our discussions is very, very true. You were a good adversary and NEVER took things personally or dished it out unfairly!!

SO....

Our battles were fun and sometimes monumental. I had fun!

...Bottom line. So did I!!!!!

[bcrook]

Originally Posted by skier_pete

Back On Topic: So what does everyone think of Kalogridis being promoted/moved to WDW? Seems to me there's been a lot of folks that think he's done a pretty good job at DLR, and credit him with positive improvements there while at the same time blaming "corporate" for a lot of the negatives.

What do you think needs to be done at WDW? I can't quite identify what that is. I do feel that the FP+ swindle is not it. I am not even sure that the FP+ is going to change my park experience much, but it still burns me up to think that so much money and energy has gone into a marketing campaign that doesn't significantly enhance the Disney Experience. They may get lucky, and people will buy into it and they may make bizillions of dollars - but it is still a trick - and they will get less of my money not more because of it.

I am also bummed about New Fantasyland (I haven't been there yet). The theming looks incredible, but there isn't anything new, creative innovative about any of it. Enchanted Tales with Belle isn't even as cool as Turtle Talk. Little Mermaid ride is screaming to be classic water/dark ride with new a twist, and it is a classic dark ride about being under the sea with no new twists and NO WATER. The Mine Train looks about like the Barnstormer. Nothing new.

Think about the excitement and creativity that Walt brought to the 1964 World's Fair. The creativity, vision, and imagination was unmatched. Much of that exhibit made its way into the parks. People seeing that for the first time in 1964 were blown away - amazed! What exactly do we have like that going on right now? Maybe that is what I want to see happening at Disney. That is what is going on over at Islands of Adventure with Harry Potter.

I thought Expedition Everest was exciting (and the line queue is an attraction in itself!!!) and I was lucky enough to see the Yeti work in its full mode one visit a long time ago. That was close (But how long has it been broke? 5-6 years?) TSMM is a popular and fun ride, and creative! - but Pixar Place SCREAMS for additional theming and a greater experience.

I can't really think of any other cutting edge, mind blowing experiences added to Disney since 2004 when I started attending regularly. So we have one great idea and an awesome queue, and one great ride (TSMM) and awful theming surrounding it (including an empty building).

I guess I am asking for the Imagineers to be turned loose! Let them do their thing. There is much work to be done. Maybe they will be able to with all the money Disney will be making of the increased merchandise sales with their magicband program.

[disneyphilip]

Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2

Lol! Well, I certainly stand by THAT post!

Mr. Baron, it is true my opinions have wandered quite far from where they were and if pressed I happily admit that you and AV in particular battled me in such good form that things stuck with me as my personal breaking point came and went.

But to be fair, I did argue my points pretty well and do still believe that Eisner was more good than bad en totale. Certainly better than the clown in charge now and if you'll recall I supported giving him his fair shot at the time too. But Iger blew it real fast..

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong all around!

Eisner was more bad than good! Iger has not blown it in any way!

[disneyphilip]

Originally Posted by bcrook

What do you think needs to be done at WDW? I can't quite identify what that is. I do feel that the FP+ swindle is not it. I am not even sure that the FP+ is going to change my park experience much, but it still burns me up to think that so much money and energy has gone into a marketing campaign that doesn't significantly enhance the Disney Experience. They may get lucky, and people will buy into it and they may make bizillions of dollars - but it is still a trick - and they will get less of my money not more because of it.

I am also bummed about New Fantasyland (I haven't been there yet). The theming looks incredible, but there isn't anything new, creative innovative about any of it. Enchanted Tales with Belle isn't even as cool as Turtle Talk. Little Mermaid ride is screaming to be classic water/dark ride with new a twist, and it is a classic dark ride about being under the sea with no new twists and NO WATER. The Mine Train looks about like the Barnstormer. Nothing new.

Think about the excitement and creativity that Walt brought to the 1964 World's Fair. The creativity, vision, and imagination was unmatched. Much of that exhibit made its way into the parks. People seeing that for the first time in 1964 were blown away - amazed! What exactly do we have like that going on right now? Maybe that is what I want to see happening at Disney. That is what is going on over at Islands of Adventure with Harry Potter.

I thought Expedition Everest was exciting (and the line queue is an attraction in itself!!!) and I was lucky enough to see the Yeti work in its full mode one visit a long time ago. That was close (But how long has it been broke? 5-6 years?) TSMM is a popular and fun ride, and creative! - but Pixar Place SCREAMS for additional theming and a greater experience.

I can't really think of any other cutting edge, mind blowing experiences added to Disney since 2004 when I started attending regularly. So we have one great idea and an awesome queue, and one great ride (TSMM) and awful theming surrounding it (including an empty building).

I guess I am asking for the Imagineers to be turned loose! Let them do their thing. There is much work to be done. Maybe they will be able to with all the money Disney will be making of the increased merchandise sales with their magicband program.

More like asking for too much, if you ask me, combined with being totally wrong on all of your points.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Originally Posted by disneyphilip

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong all around!

Eisner was more bad than good! Iger has not blown it in any way!

Lol. Way to explain your points.

I'll keep it brief. Eisner gave us the Disney decade, which was hands down the making of WDW. Iger has given us the Walmartization of a once great company. 'Nuff said? Baron?

[skier_pete]

Originally Posted by bcrook

What do you think needs to be done at WDW? I can't quite identify what that is. I do feel that the FP+ swindle is not it.

I guess I am asking for the Imagineers to be turned loose! Let them do their thing. There is much work to be done.

Well, to be honest, I really hope that they are doing it. They have four theme parks, every year, there should be something new going into one of them. And I don't mean "Let's redo Test Track" level of something new. The FLE is a step in the right direction,something incredibly well themed, but between 2007 and 2012 there was very little new in WDW. (I know FL is geared towards kids, and some complain about that, but I reject that argument, just because something isn't directly for ME doesn't mean its not good.)

Hopefully we will see something along the lines of:

2014 - Seven Dwarfs Mine Car
2015 - Pandora
2016 - Carsland / Starwarsland
2017 - Epcot something?

In addition, I would like to see Disney do something occasionally groundbreaking. I would say Everest was that (had Betty worked) and maybe Toy Story Mania (you may not agree, but just because its a fairly simple ride doesn't means it's not groundbreaking) but not much else. (Maybe the lift mechanism for Soarin', but not the whole experience.)

I don't know how many on this part of the board have had the chance to ride Radiator Springs Racers, but it was the first time I was truly WOWED by a ride at Disney in a long, long time. The level of sophistication of the AA and the experience of the ride and both a dark ride AND a thrill ride was absolutely brilliant. It's the reason I have no problem with the idea of bringing it to DHS.

I also wish they would realize the horrible mistake they made with DTD, and recreate an area where adults can go on their own to enjoy entertainment. I am a huge AC fan, but even if that doesn't return but nightlife does, I would consider that a major improvement.

I guess I just want them to continue to excel at entertainment, and make each new trip and unique as all the previous one. I guess I never understand the people that seem to complain continuously, yet continue to go. There is still so much to like, but the time I take a trip and say "boy this isn't really what it used to be" is the time I stop coming.

SkierPete

P.S. Thank you for the compliments - though I feel that I am not one of the "old-timers" here, as I have only been on since 2006. I think when you are on for a while it gets harder to post, watching the same old topics come up year after year. (Though I enjoy the semi-annual "Oh my god, they're going to stop giving discounts!" threads.)

[DVC-Landbaron]

I'll keep it brief. Eisner gave us the Disney decade, which was, hands down, the making of WDW. Iger has given us the Walmartization of a once great company. 'Nuff said? Baron?

Are you kidding me!!!!!????? You expect back up with a paragraph like that!!?? I cannot do it! I have to break it down. Backwards!!!

Iger has given us the Walmartization of a once great company. 'Nuff said? Baron?

YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! You are 100% correct!! ‘Nuff said!!!

I'll keep it brief. Eisner gave us the Disney decade, which was, hands down, the making of WDW.

Mr. Pirate!! You were wrong ten years ago and you are still wrong today!! I know it’s a bit of reading but if you’d like a real eye-opener check out this conversation we had quite a while ago. It is well worth the time you spend on it. It explains perfectly just how inept Ei$ner was. Pay particular attention to the posts from “Another Voice”. He was our ‘deep-throat’ of Disney.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=129817

Welcome Back!!! (for those who actually read the thread). Did you enjoy it? Did you come away with a different perspective on Ei$ner? Or do you still think he the Wonderful Man Who Brought Us The Disney Decade!!??

Anyway, Mr. Pirate, I really don’t know what to say about disneyphilip. My first reaction is that he is nothing but a troll trying to stir the pot. But with 3,553 and joining the DIS in July 2001 (which probably means even earlier as that was when the board (and some IDs, mine included) needed to be reset) I just don’t know.

All I can say for sure is that he is definitely a man of few words! Even if those words are overly broad and entirely WRONG!!!

[Peter Pirate 2]

Originally Posted by DVC-Landbaron

Are you kidding me!!!!!????? You expect back up with a paragraph like that!!?? I cannot do it! I have to break it down. Backwards!!!

YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! You are 100% correct!! ‘Nuff said!!!

Mr. Pirate!! You were wrong ten years ago and you are still wrong today!! I know it’s a bit of reading but if you’d like a real eye-opener check out this conversation we had quite a while ago. It is well worth the time you spend on it. It explains perfectly just how inept Ei$ner was. Pay particular attention to the posts from “Another Voice”. He was our ‘deep-throat’ of Disney.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=129817

Welcome Back!!! (for those who actually read the thread). Did you enjoy it? Did you come away with a different perspective on Ei$ner? Or do you still think he the Wonderful Man Who Brought Us The Disney Decade!!??

Anyway, Mr. Pirate, I really don’t know what to say about disneyphilip. My first reaction is that he is nothing but a troll trying to stir the pot. But with 3,553 and joining the DIS in July 2001 (which probably means even earlier as that was when the board (and some IDs, mine included) needed to be reset) I just don’t know.

All I can say for sure is that he is definitely a man of few words! Even if those words are overly broad and entirely WRONG!!!

Oh Baron. I only expected affirmation on the Iger portion. Plus my description of Eisner was simplistic just to show that no matter how bad he may have been by the end (yes, it was real bad) the Disney decade DID at least grow WDW to what it became, on his watch, even if his motives weren't pure, or was pure greed. How's that?

[DRDISNEYMD]

Originally Posted by skier_pete

Well, to be honest, I really hope that they are doing it. They have four theme parks, every year, there should be something new going into one of them. And I don't mean "Let's redo Test Track" level of something new.

~Very well said. If Disney had done this, along with regular maintenance & upkeep, there would be no need to catch up.

Originally Posted by skier_pete

The FLE is a step in the right direction,something incredibly well themed, but between 2007 and 2012 there was very little new in WDW. (I know FL is geared towards kids, and some complain about that, but I reject that argument, just because something isn't directly for ME doesn't mean its not good.)

The new Fantasyland looks gorgeous. I don't know, maybe it is wrong for me to be mildly annoyed when the queue(s) are better than the attraction(s), as we've seen with The Little Mermaid & Dumbo. It feels a tad gimmicky to me, but I really want to be fair. I try to be careful because in certain discussions it does sound like I'm overly criticizing the new FL, but I'm not. I truly appreciate it for what it is & the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train looks amazing -- I can't wait for that!!!

Originally Posted by skier_pete

Hopefully we will see something along the lines of:

2014 - Seven Dwarfs Mine Car
2015 - Pandora
2016 - Carsland / Starwarsland
2017 - Epcot something?

~Yes! This sounds like a great plan.

Originally Posted by skier_pete

In addition, I would like to see Disney do something occasionally groundbreaking. I would say Everest was that (had Betty worked) and maybe Toy Story Mania (you may not agree, but just because its a fairly simple ride doesn't means it's not groundbreaking) but not much else. (Maybe the lift mechanism for Soarin', but not the whole experience.) I don't know how many on this part of the board have had the chance to ride Radiator Springs Racers, but it was the first time I was truly WOWED by a ride at Disney in a long, long time. The level of sophistication of the AA and the experience of the ride and both a dark ride AND a thrill ride was absolutely brilliant. It's the reason I have no problem with the idea of bringing it to DHS.

~Radiator Springs Racers looks fabulous. I just don't want WDW to get the "economical" version. If Disney recreated the identical same ride or better, I would be thrilled. But, we don't need another "Carsland" -- I prefer Pixarland.

Originally Posted by skier_pete

I also wish they would realize the horrible mistake they made with DTD, and recreate an area where adults can go on their own to enjoy entertainment. I am a huge AC fan, but even if that doesn't return but nightlife does, I would consider that a major improvement.

I guess I just want them to continue to excel at entertainment, and make each new trip and unique as all the previous one. I guess I never understand the people that seem to complain continuously, yet continue to go. There is still so much to like, but the time I take a trip and say "boy this isn't really what it used to be" is the time I stop coming.

SkierPete

P.S. Thank you for the compliments - though I feel that I am not one of the "old-timers" here, as I have only been on since 2006. I think when you are on for a while it gets harder to post, watching the same old topics come up year after year. (Though I enjoy the semi-annual "Oh my god, they're going to stop giving discounts!" threads.)

~It's a delicate balance, I don't want to be one of those people who continuously complain, but I don't want to be a pixie duster either. For instance, I don't get mousekeeping. I take serious exception to the standard of cleanliness at Disney resorts, it doesn't appear to correlate with industry standards (imo), -- but I just deal with it. Overall, I still love Disney, I'm excited about my upcoming vacation & I'm looking forward to new & exciting things in the future.

~Also, this thread is awesome, it's really fabulous to see all of the "old timers" together again!!!

[pilferk]

Early Eisner had vision and wasn't afraid to spend money. He saw opportunity in expansion, across the company, and..while he certainly was a sharp pencil guy, he had guys around him who could dull the point enough to bring him around to their way of thinking (and making him THINK it was his way of thinking).

Eisner's main problem were these: The guy was terrible at delegation. He was paranoid. He had an ego the size of WDW. And he would sabotage his own people in order to maintain his own standing (both political and actual) in "the boys club").

All that effected his ability, and stunted the vision he DID have. As he cleared out the people around him who dulled that pencil and sort of lit up the "ah ha" moments (for example: Katzenberg), because he viewed them as a threat (either in actual standing or political standing in the "boys club"), his success faltered. So he surrounded himself with "yes" men, and sharp pencil guys (because they were never a threat to supplant him in a company like the Disney that was, then). The problem is: He created a hostile executive culture that pretty much fed on itself and didn't produce much of worth. And that hostile executive culture ended up giving way to a company that was very different...and a company where those "sharp pencil" guys WERE the ones who became the threats to advance...at least to the points below Eisner. And as they advanced (because they weren't an Eisner threat), they continually changed the company until, really, they WERE the company.

Only the Pixar infusion really changed that. That's ONE thing you can thank Iger for...because it's the one thing Eisner could not have done. Because he viewed Lassiter, and, more specifically JOBS, as a huge threat to his power/powerbase. Iger is a bit less insecure, and did the deal that needed to get done.

We'll see how it all works out in the end. I'm encouraged by what I see of Lassiter's work. The question is: Given his money...does he fight through to effect change, become complacent with his little fiefdom and stick with making/keeping DLR a gem, or get sick of the garbage,throw his hands up, and walk away.

I've not seen Lassiter run from a fight, yet (both at Pixar or at Disney). And he seems to love DLR an awful lot. Does that love translate to the rest of disney (outside animation/Pixar's products)/WDW? I have my doubts.

[skier_pete]

Originally Posted by pilferk

Eisner's main problem were these: The guy was terrible at delegation. He was paranoid. He had an ego the size of WDW. And he would sabotage his own people in order to maintain his own standing (both political and actual) in "the boys club").

I think Eisner's early days were great, and he became progressively worse. The expansion of WDW to a full fledged destination resort is really thanks to him. But I wonder if a lot of that "switch" had to do with the death of Frank Wells. I wonder if he was a tempering influence on Eisner, and was able to keep his ego in check.

Iger best legacy is going to be his aquisitions, no doubt. Getting PIXAR/Lassiter into the fold was the wisest thing he did, with aquiring Marvel and maybe Lucasfilm #2 and #3.

I'm am not sure who the right person to give credit to for the recent years of the parks. I think what they did in DCA was both brave and brilliant in admitting a mistake and successfully fixing it. And I think the FLE, which is really the first major item in Florida since EE looks to be a home run. So, to me, it looks like the US parks are on the right "track". Can this continue? IDK.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I think Eisner's early days were great, and he became progressively worse

Can you cite an example of that greatness. Other than the fact he did two obvious things. He opened the Disney Vault (i.e Disney videos) and he started to develop the WDW property. Something ANYONE should have done. It was only the 'deer in the headlights' thinking that stopped Ron Miller and Card Walker from doing it. Those poor souls were utterly lost and afraid of making an UN-Walt move. So they did NOTHING. Ei$ner came in and did "something". But the question remains...

Was it the right "something"?

[pilferk]

Originally Posted by skier_pete

I think Eisner's early days were great, and he became progressively worse. The expansion of WDW to a full fledged destination resort is really thanks to him. But I wonder if a lot of that "switch" had to do with the death of Frank Wells. I wonder if he was a tempering influence on Eisner, and was able to keep his ego in check.

I would agree that Eisner's earlier days as CEO were more successful. But (like you imply), I'm not sure it was really BECAUSE of Eisner. It was because he had people like Wells, Katzenberg, Roy, etc. Granted, Eisner signed off on what was done...but much of the stuff you sort of attribute to Eisner, I'd say was largely spearheaded by someone else. Either that, or was such a no brainer (harvesting the Disney back catalog for home release) that I have a hard time giving him much credit for it.

Iger best legacy is going to be his aquisitions, no doubt. Getting PIXAR/Lassiter into the fold was the wisest thing he did, with aquiring Marvel and maybe Lucasfilm #2 and #3.

Pixar aquisition will probably have the largest influence on Disney, directly and indirectly, of anything that's been done since Walt passed. A bold statement, I know. But one I think history will hold up.

The Marvel purchase....maybe. Some of that is going to depend on how that medium translates into the future. There are days, not far away, where paper and ink are going to disappear. The question is: Can Marvel continue to develop NEW IP, and create new "modern fables/myths", once the paper medium goes away. Will "comic books" be able to make the jump to a purely digital format. We've seen some of it, in varying initiatives...but the truth is that the demographic for comics is aging, dramtically. And while it's true that film/cartoons/etc introduces (or re-introduces, or re-familiarizes) the younger generation with these properties....to really make Marvel worth the massive amount of cash Disney put up, it's going to have to prove that it can move from pulp to liquid crystal, and grab younger eyes. I think they can do it..but I'm not SURE they can do it.

Lucasfilm...it's still too early to tell. This looks VERY different than Marvel (where Disney has really let the creative side continue to run with relative independance). It looks like Disney is taking complete and total control (regardless of the "consultant" title Lucas maintains) of the Star Wars properties. Until I see their products and integration, I remain a little skeptical. It will probably make Disney scads of money...so good on that. I'm not sure if it will be a long term IP for Disney to mine....and I have doubts it will have much influence on the company, itself.

To add: It sure looks like Disney is becoming, quite quickly, a massive media content owner. I wonder if a day will come when they stop actually producing that content, and start just licensing it out for others to use/create. You'd think, for long term health, they'd have to continue to create...but if you look at what they've been doing over the past 10 years, you have to wonder. Most of the really compelling content they have layed hands on has been via mergers and purchase.

I'm am not sure who the right person to give credit to for the recent years of the parks. I think what they did in DCA was both brave and brilliant in admitting a mistake and successfully fixing it. And I think the FLE, which is really the first major item in Florida since EE looks to be a home run. So, to me, it looks like the US parks are on the right "track". Can this continue? IDK.

I think everything at DLR has Lassiters handprints all over it. I think it's telling that the DCA redesign sort of changed directions, completely, over the proposals once he started to get his hands dirty.

With FLE...I'm not sure. It's a promising (and recent) exception to what we've seen in Florida, recently. And as much as I love EE...it's an epic technical failure. I haven't heard who spearheaded the FLE project. I've heard Lassiter has actually been showing a bit more interest in Florida over the past couple years. Not as much as with DLR, but more. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it, or not. I will say this: The only complaint I have with FLE is that the level of detail and theming is actually JARRING compared to some other areas of the parks.

[skier_pete]

Originally Posted by DVC-Landbaron

Can you cite an example of that greatness. Other than the fact he did two obvious things. He opened the Disney Vault (i.e Disney videos) and he started to develop the WDW property. Something ANYONE should have done. It was only the 'deer in the headlights' thinking that stopped Ron Miller and Card Walker from doing it. Those poor souls were utterly lost and afraid of making an UN-Walt move. So they did NOTHING. Ei$ner came in and did "something". But the question remains...

Was it the right "something"?

-He stabilized a company that was on the verge of being taken over and sold off for parts.
-He expanded the live action film-making. Things like Splash, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, League of their own (i think), made the company more profitable.
-He brought in people to run the animation business that in turn made Disney Animation great again (lots of credit to Roy Disney for this also, but Eisner had a major hand in it with Katzenberg).
-And I will disagree on the obviousness of the expansion. WDW had been around for almost 20 years, having only developed two parks and a handfull of hotels. He looked to major expansion: theme parks, water parks, hotels of all sorts that truly made it the unique on property experience it is today. I don't think the rate and the breadth of that was at all obvious and was pretty risky.
-He also made the original deal with Pixar/Jobs to distribute their films, something Disney doesn't do a lot of in case you haven't noticed.

I think later in his tenure he became a more typical running-scared, short sighted, look at the numbers suit. Again, I wonder how much of that change was predicated by Frank Wells death.

If haven't seen "Waking Sleeping Beauty", which details these early days of Eisners reign, while focusing mostly on animation and movies, it is really a fairly fascinating, warts and all, review of the rise and fall of Disney Animation, but also while it doesn't get into it, you can see the fall of Eisner coming.

[pilferk]

Originally Posted by DVC-Landbaron

Can you cite an example of that greatness. Other than the fact he did two obvious things. He opened the Disney Vault (i.e Disney videos) and he started to develop the WDW property. Something ANYONE should have done. It was only the 'deer in the headlights' thinking that stopped Ron Miller and Card Walker from doing it. Those poor souls were utterly lost and afraid of making an UN-Walt move. So they did NOTHING. Ei$ner came in and did "something". But the question remains...

Was it the right "something"?

I think the early stuff...opening the vaults, expanding WDW, and riding herd on a rebirth of Disney animation (Beauty, Aladdin, Lion King, etc)...was definitely the right "something". Granted, his contribution was largely agreeing to sign checks. But, IMHO, it was right both in terms of what was right for the company AND the customer.

I think the later stuff...after much of the creative inner circle had left , been pushed out, or had jumped out (or, in Wells case, gone on to meet his maker)...was "wrong". I especially think the way DLR was managed, possibly at the expense of the WDW expansion, was terrible. I think the concept behind DCA (which really was built while Eisner's watch) was TERRIBLE. I think the leadership Eisner appointed for DLR was....and this is being kind...$#%^@ terrible. You can find similar "terrible" variations across the other business units.

In short, I think there was a LOT more "terrible" than there was "good" or "right". And, if you look, the worm sort of turned when Eisner's insecurities wouldn't allow him to build/maintain a strong group of high placed executive advisers. People who had the vision and power to actually effect change and get things done. The people Eisner decided, it seems, were some sort of threat to him. Instead, once the "Yes" men and sharp pencil guys surrounded him....it all seemed to go bad.